The Connection-Native Americans and Yesrael

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Blaye Otanka said:

Where do you get the idea there were three distinct cultures? I would like to know.

They were a Triple Alliance of three different culture groups. The dominant one spoke Nahuatl  which was related to your language.

See Charles Mann

1 minute ago, Blaye Otanka said:

I have read, and now re-read your wikipedia link. They must have updated it, though anyway...

Ya I understand what you are saying with the similarity to kiimochnii. I do not disagree there have been Na'wal of the past who may have taken this route. Though the key things to keep in mind with this link is: It is wikipedia, and though often Educated people do post about topics, anyone can make a Wiki page, and thus the question: is all the information presented devoutly true? I do not trust Anthropologists nearly as much as the Nagual themselves, and that is a fact. Have you ever met one?

Here are some key words my Eye caught in the Wiki: "spiritually or physically into an animal form", and "Such a nagual is believed to use their powers for good or evil according to their personality.", "transforming trickster".

With this talk often enough comes a lot of ignorance and superstition, and where I do not think I know all there is about Nagual, I have read several books by one, and read the work of one of his students. If you learn the order of their cult, or the ceremonies of it, you would know it is not about "Transforming Tricksters", that is what we call "Transgression" and the ceremony and law is designed for Nagual to choose the path of Fire. 

Of course your personality has to do with your decision making, and your acceptance of knowledge, and beliefs plays a big part in that. For Nagual they hunt their own minds, and it is generally accepted that they should be as good and powerful as possible. They are healers more than changers, and as I understand it there is nothing scary or wrong about taking animal form necessarily in regard to dreams.

A dreamer understands that this animal form is what you call a todem, or in other words, it is a symbolism. Nagual on the path of fire choose to manifest truth of the "Great Mystery" that is their divine energy, and so they consider themeselves becoming something higher than a man, rather than becoming an animal.

Though there are others who choose the path of shadows, and these seem to believe literal animal forms are the answer...

Stalker and/or dreamer, but both can be the path of fire, and one can be both...

I'm a Kiimochnii. My aspect is the Panther. Your preaching to the choir. 

[+Not A Rockstar]

9 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Ever hear of Chinese whispers? Oral history or traditions are infallible aren't they.

Just in my own oral traditions those do not get written down and they also are not repeated to anyone who lacks the rank level to access it. They certainly do not form up into walls of texts like that as if cut and pasted. As you say, oral trad is only as good as the memory and morality of the one passing it down, too. Sad to see these ideas being trotted out again is all. I had hoped they got killed off back in the 70s when I first heard about lost tribes of Israel coming to the New World. 

This is part of the need the NA cultures have to be fierce in defense of what is left after all their losses of the past and disruptions and to war against foreign ideas trying to sneak in wearing their words and feathers, you know? What they have kept close and right is tremendous, but it won't remain so if they slack in defending what is theirs.

 

[VastLand]

Just now, Piney said:

They were a Triple Alliance of three different culture groups. The dominant one spoke Nahuatl  which was related to your language.

See Charles Mann

I'm a Kiimochnii. My aspect is the Panther. Your preaching to the choir. 

Ok, if the wind blows in the right direction I will soon check out Charles Mann.

Well I am happy you think I am preaching to the choir Haha.

But do not transgress with shadows, that is all I have to say.

[danydandan]

1 minute ago, Blaye Otanka said:

Oral traditions are usually believed before Anthropology by me... Unless I perceive the people are making fiction because they forgot their origin? some celtic people do this...

How can you judge who is lying?

Care to elaborate on Celtic comment.

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Blaye Otanka said:

Ok, if the wind blows in the right direction I will soon check out Charles Mann.

Well I am happy you think I am preaching to the choir Haha.

But do not transgress with shadows, that is all I have to say.

I live by the Balance and punish evil with evil.

[VastLand]

9 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

Just in my own oral traditions those do not get written down and they also are not repeated to anyone who lacks the rank level to access it. They certainly do not form up into walls of texts like that as if cut and pasted. As you say, oral trad is only as good as the memory and morality of the one passing it down, too. Sad to see these ideas being trotted out again is all. I had hoped they got killed off back in the 70s when I first heard about lost tribes of Israel coming to the New World. 

This is part of the need the NA cultures have to be fierce in defense of what is left after all their losses of the past and disruptions and to war against foreign ideas trying to sneak in wearing their words and feathers, you know? What they have kept close and right is tremendous, but it won't remain so if they slack in defending what is theirs.

 

AH, you clarified yourself well. Thank you. Well ya I think it is unfortunate that I have not memorized them, and Honestly if you live in a Mieskah world it can be a challenge. That is why this information is important, though keep your wisdom and cultural truths, and do not let it parish... Yehudah made a mistake of writing down their Oral Traditions for the Romans, but they were essentially colonized by the Hellenistic culture. The corrupted Pharusheem gave it to Greek speakers but I do not believe the people wanted this.

Why would you want lost tribes to die? They would be at war with Colonist america right now if they could wake up. You could have the blood for all you know, but they did assimilate in america << My Opinion and I am convinced.

You understand they are on your side, and understand what COLONIALISM is, but the current people in the state of Israel are mostly German Mixed bloods some under Zionism, and these under zionism are not my people.

My people are scattered around the middle east too though, such as Yemenai Jews...

Edited March 22, 2018 by Blaye Otanka
Ahem

[VastLand]

5 minutes ago, danydandan said:

How can you judge who is lying?

Care to elaborate on Celtic comment.

Discernment comes after much skepticism and research as you may know. I have spent a lot of effort looking into Origin myths, and "world religion", I think many are similar, and want the same Ideas, though when you observe a mass of people in the middle east claiming the same thing from Sumeria to India, and Israel to Far East Assyria, then you see each of their own Antiquity of the gods mesh, and Historical accounts witness eachother, it not only validates there is something to this, but it shows to you who remembers better.

[Swede]

6 hours ago, Blaye Otanka said:

Archaeology: http://hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm : compilation of known artifacts mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Phoenician_discovery_of_the_Americas : Theory of Phoenician discovery of America.

Piney has spent some time in attempting to inform you that your sources of reference material are less than ideal/credible. To elaborate:

1) This first source relies rather heavily on the the works of the likes of Gordon and Fells. While Gordon did provide some reasonably worthwhile research, he was a known hyper-diffusionist and thus his perspective was notably biased. Such examples as the Bat Creek Stone and the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone have long ago been demonstrated to be fraudulent (see Feder, etc.). These specimens are not unlike a number of similar frauds that were perpetrated during the mid-latter 19th century. Other examples include the Spirit Pond Stone, Dighton Rock, Lenape Stone, Grave Creek Stone, etc. (see Williams 1991). Bear in mind that during the period in question (and somewhat earlier periods), there was a "conventional" understanding, based upon western belief systems, that many of the earthworks and structural works observed in North America were too "sophisticated" to have been created by the indigenous peoples encountered. That the "mound builders" were indigenous peoples was not fully documented and accepted until the publication of Cyrus Thomas studies in the 1890's should provide you with historical perspective.

The works of Barry Fell were also long ago discounted as erroneous.

2) There is no credible evidence for the presence of the Phoenicians in the Americas, as noted in your reference.

Edit: Phrasing.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Swede

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Blaye Otanka said:

Why would you want lost tribes to die? They would be at war with Colonist america right now if they could wake up. You could have the blood for all you know, but they did assimilate in america << My Opinion and I am convinced.

A environmental event known as the "Columbian Exchange" and modern genetic research negates this theory. We are not related to Middle Easterners.

[+Not A Rockstar]

13 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I have no knowledge on tribal traditions, being Irish I'm not exposed to it unfortunately. I certainly didn't mean disrespect I was just pointing out that oral history can be changed from keeper to keeper

Can you elaborate what you mean by Newage fraud.

Speaking from the ones I have been brought up in, new agers and Wiccans are compulsive about taking anything at all they see and like or want fro other traditions and cultures and twisting it into their own "tradition". Then their twisted versions get accessed by the anthro folks who learn about it in a wrong form and take that as truth and if they run into you as the real deal don't believe you. Hollywood did it first and the New Agers picked up where Hollywood left off.

It is worse with the NA, for there is money to be made off sincere Whites hoping to connect through shaman training and sweat lodges with a sense of spirit. The NA I know are as angry over their trads being sold in bastardized forms as they are seeing sincere people being defrauded and lied to for money. 

Bottom line we are consumers today and there is a basic conflict between how we are and the time and commitment it takes to connect deeply with the more ancient tribal religions. So that leaves space for the frauds to sell their version of things that resemble the same deal but are not, re just stolen and superficial at best.

Piney and I have spoken enough I feel sure he will agree with much of my response here. It is evil what these shysters do. 

[Piney]

30 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I have no knowledge on tribal traditions, being Irish I'm not exposed to it unfortunately. I certainly didn't mean disrespect I was just pointing out that oral history can be changed from keeper to keeper

Can you elaborate what you mean by Newage fraud.

All the Plastic Shamanism distorting real Native beliefs. Many make us look primitive and backwards or make us look like we can cure anything and people get hurt.

[+Not A Rockstar]

14 minutes ago, Blaye Otanka said:

AH, you clarified yourself well. Thank you. Well ya I think it is unfortunate that I have not memorized them, and Honestly if you live in a Mieskah world it can be a challenge. That is why this information is important, though keep your wisdom and cultural truths, and do not let it parish... Yehudah made a mistake of writing down their Oral Traditions for the Romans, but they were essentially colonized by the Hellenistic culture. The corrupted Pharusheem gave it to Greek speakers but I do not believe the people wanted this.

Why would you want lost tribes to die? They would be at war with Colonist america right now if they could wake up. You could have the blood for all you know, but they did assimilate in america << My Opinion and I am convinced.

You understand they are on your side, and understand what COLONIALISM is, but the current people in the state of Israel are mostly German Mixed bloods some under Zionism, and these under zionism are not my people.

My people are scattered around the middle east too though, such as Yemenai Jews...

It is not sacred oral tradition once it is written down and shared with the masses. It is just rhetoric.

You are relishing this notion of revealing something amazing and new to us all here, but it is an old fraud and tired trope at that. But, you are almost seeing a major thing through chasing this delusion, so perhaps it is just your journey. 

Just have a care about dragging others along with that missionary zeal. Bad mojo comes of harming children. Good bye Blaye.

[danydandan]

13 minutes ago, Piney said:

All the Plastic Shamanism distorting real Native beliefs. Many make us look primitive and backwards or make us look like we can cure anything and people get hurt.

Kinda like faith healers and the like?

[Piney]

Just now, danydandan said:

Kinda like faith healers and the like?

Yup! But worse than that. Fakers who claim they can cure cancer when I send folks to a oncologist. Sweat lodges where they use the wrong stones ( which explode) or let it, or the people get too hot. I have to "run down" a case of sweat lodge abuse this week because a woman was badly burnt and our Ceremonial Chief didn't find out until the damage was done and it was brought to our attention.

[VastLand]

23 minutes ago, Swede said:

Piney has spent some time in attempting to inform you that your sources of reference material are less than ideal/credible. To elaborate:

1) This first source relies rather heavily on the the works of the likes of Gordon and Fells. While Gordon did provide some reasonably worthwhile research, he was a known hyper-diffusionist and thus his perspective was notably biased. Such examples as the Bat Creek Stone and the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone have long ago been demonstrated to be fraudulent (see Feder, etc.). These specimens are not unlike a number of similar frauds that were perpetrated during the mid-latter 19th century. Other examples include the Spirit Pond Stone, Dighton Rock, Lenape Stone, Grave Creek Stone, etc. (see Williams 1991). Bear in mind that during the period in question (and somewhat earlier periods), there was a "conventional" understanding, based upon western belief systems, that many of the earthworks and structural works observed in North America were too "sophisticated" to have been created by the indigenous peoples encountered. That the "mound builders" were indigenous peoples was not fully documented and accepted until the publication of Cyrus Thomas studies in the 1890's should provide you with historical perspective.

The works of Barry Fell were also long ago discounted as erroneous.

2) There is no credible evidence for the presence of the Phoenicians in the Americas, as noted in your reference.

Edit: Phrasing.

I hear what you are saying about Gordon and Fells, I understand. I would like to clarify that I use discernment in my study, and I do not consider all evidence presented as true. I also did not rely solely on articles, and even my article gazing goes more in depth than these few links you are commenting on, maybe I should have mentioned more. Yes I did hear that the Las Lunes Stones were a fraud, even a Jewish rabbi claimed it fraud in a book of his... Though I do not discredit everything.

The phoenicians by the way adopted the god Yahuwah from Israel by the way. There is a book called Gad the Seer, which a copy was given to a museum, and the guys who studied it said it was a pseudopigraph, which essentially means it is attributed to gad, but another author wrote it. It came out of India if I remember right, and Lost Tribe Israelites there held unto this story, which was probably transmitted Orally and written down later. Though the title is after the name of a Lost book to the Hebraic Histories, and I believe this then is what was preserved of the book itself, though of course the manuscripts are fairly new. It is in this book that explains Hiram king of Tyre came to Adon Dawed and asked to make Yahuwah his national deity... There are other sources on the  matter I am sure you could find. 

There is also the fragments of Sanchuniathon which, the man "Sanchuniathon" was a Phoenician who documented his people's own "Religion", and some of the information from Thoth the Egyptian, who taught him all he knew. The surviving fragments of his writings are recorded by Esebius (church father), Philo of Byblos, Porphyry (Philosopher), and this Tradition is of the likeness of the cosmogony and Traditions of the hebrews, and also fairly similar to native americans in terms of the creation of life. The only great difference is the wind which is personified as the deity which churns the chaotic waters of the void was completely characteristic of the following two cultures.

There may be a connection, it seems there is of course a connection with Yesrael. I ponder theories, and I wonder? If Israel left over the euphrates heading away from the Assyrian Empire, thus going west to a land where it was believed "No mankind ever dwelt", and it took a years time to get there? Could they have headed into the mediteranean? Who's boats did they use? Did they go into africa? Well Judah did, but Israel, it does not seem so...

[VastLand]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

Yup! But worse than that. Fakers who claim they can cure cancer when I send folks to a oncologist. Sweat lodges where they use the wrong stones ( which explode) or let it, or the people get too hot. I have to "run down" a case of sweat lodge abuse this week because a woman was badly burnt and our Ceremonial Chief didn't find out until the damage was done and it was brought to our attention.

Ya, I have heard that some people think it is a competition, I am sorry to hear it, thank you for your wisdom on this. Wrong stones, wow?

[danydandan]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

Yup! But worse than that. Fakers who claim they can cure cancer when I send folks to a oncologist. Sweat lodges where they use the wrong stones ( which explode) or let it, or the people get too hot. I have to "run down" a case of sweat lodge abuse this week because a woman was badly burnt and our Ceremonial Chief didn't find out until the damage was done and it was brought to our attention.

When exposed do these fakers be reported to the police? How is justice done? Do they do the "healing" for money or do people go to them out of a distrust of western medicine?

[Swede]

20 hours ago, Blaye Otanka said:

The clothing of Most Natives, and even Mongolians, are to wear fringes and feathers...

While Piney may disagree with me a bit, some additional input on this aspect:

• The "function" of fringes has been subject to a number of interpretations, including Piney's. There are also some indications that the longer-fringed garments may have also been utilized as a source of emergency cordage.
• Heavily fringed garments are labor intensive to produce, in both materials and time.
• Thus, heavily fringed garments do not generally represent day-to-day wear, but were of a more "special occasion" nature. The practicality of hunting through dense undergrowth, etc.
• The flowing, rippling nature of longer fringes enhances traditional dance movement and has been suggested as their primary function amongst at least some Plains groups.

Feathers can be another matter, with the species and ornamental nature of display taking on a number of symbolic meanings across various cultural groups.

The attempt to conflate the utilization and symbolism of these faunal materials in such a cross-cultural, cross-temporal, and cross-geographical manner could be considered to be highly questionable.

.

[VastLand]

16 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

It is not sacred oral tradition once it is written down and shared with the masses. It is just rhetoric.

You are relishing this notion of revealing something amazing and new to us all here, but it is an old fraud and tired trope at that. But, you are almost seeing a major thing through chasing this delusion, so perhaps it is just your journey. 

Just have a care about dragging others along with that missionary zeal. Bad mojo comes of harming children. Good bye Blaye.

Missionary zeal? You do not understand me at all... Bye.

I am not removing sacredness, what I was hoping is there were people here who would understand and then grow an awareness that there is something more sacred...

the prophecy of my people is about mother earth and father sky, and Great Spirit Yahuwah. I am sorry Christians lied about my people's ways...

Anyhow whether you believe it or not, A remnant of the tribes of Yah-Sha-Rah-El will survive to help save this earth...

It will not become rhetoric, I can decode the meanings right now, and by this I can educate who our people really are. Black Elk's visions were indeed given by Wakinyan and Wakan Tanka, and he intended it be written down so that people like myself with a journey based on truth can help peice together what is really going on. His people's peace pipe had a buffalo calf on it's pipe, and twelve eagle feathers standing for the twelve moons, when White Buffalo gave it to him. That is all out Hebrew, to Ancient Yesrael the moon represented the land, and the sun the heavens, together came the earth. Each of the twelve tribes were the moon, and the sun was Levi the Kuwahen tribe. Thus from the air unites the harmony with the twelve moons. The buffalo calf represents South, where you always face, and represents growth (the horns). This is when the sun is the highest, and this is when the moon is new, I believe. The hebrew letter for south is TET, which is a clay pot with four corners, it represents mother earth, the element...

Wisdom is cross examined with our people...

[Piney]

Just now, danydandan said:

When exposed do these fakers be reported to the police? How is justice done? Do they do the "healing" for money or do people go to them out of a distrust of western medicine?

For money, and no law enforcement doesn't step in until they already have hurt a lot of people. That's why I exist in the Native world of "Woo". I hunt false prophets and fake shamans both White and Indian. 

@Blaye Otanka  Knows me by the nahuatl name. "Nagual". My people, the Algonquian, know me as a "Kiimochnii". You might be more familiar with the Creepypasta term, Skinwalker, but there is nothing supernatural involved. Just good mimicry, a limber and well honed body and psychology. Plastic Shamans actually believe the "woo" they spout and are easily manipulated.

[VastLand]

5 minutes ago, Swede said:

While Piney may disagree with me a bit, some additional input on this aspect:

• The "function" of fringes has been subject to a number of interpretations, including Piney's. There are also some indications that the longer-fringed garments may have also been utilized as a source of emergency cordage.
• Heavily fringed garments are labor intensive to produce, in both materials and time.
• Thus, heavily fringed garments do not generally represent day-to-day wear, but were of a more "special occasion" nature. The practicality of hunting through dense undergrowth, etc.
• The flowing, rippling nature of longer fringes enhances traditional dance movement and has been suggested as their primary function amongst at least some Plains groups.

Feathers can be another matter, with the species and ornamental nature of display taking on a number of symbolic meanings across various cultural groups.

The attempt to conflate the utilization and symbolism of these faunal materials in such a cross-cultural, cross-temporal, and cross-geographical manner could be considered to be highly questionable.

.

I understand your last statement completely, my people the Miwok believe the Turkey tail feather is Thunder Medicine, and it is used as a tool to asist blessing sometimes, but the real nature of power is not the feather itself, but the weilder.

Rather what is the function of a feather? It is for flight, and gliding in the air, turkeys do fly. It is also a display of attraction, and might. The feather means all of those things...

I agree with Piney and Yourself, that they had real uses, though I feel there was a deeper meaning once forgotten. Yes even the Lakota in war and hunt wore as little as possible, it is ceremonial, and for gathering activities.

[VastLand]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

For money, and no law enforcement doesn't step in until they already have hurt a lot of people. That's why I exist in the Native world of "Woo". I hunt false prophets and fake shamans both White and Indian. 

@Blaye Otanka  Knows me by the nahuatl name. "Nagual". My people, the Algonquian, know me as a "Kiimochnii". You might be more familiar with the Creepypasta term, Skinwalker, but there is nothing supernatural involved. Just good mimicry, a limber and well honed body and psychology. Plastic Shamans actually believe the "woo" they spout and are easily manipulated.

There is power in the healing and ceremony, there is power in the dreams and visions, and miracles can Happen. You do not disagree do you?

[danydandan]

1 minute ago, Blaye Otanka said:

There is power in the healing and ceremony, there is power in the dreams and visions, and miracles can Happen. You do not disagree do you?

The power is called the palcebo effect. Miracles don't happen.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Blaye Otanka said:

There is power in the healing and ceremony, there is power in the dreams and visions, and miracles can Happen. You do not disagree do you?

No, but I say nothing on here I cannot prove. No sense in arguing about it. Although my "change" is a Chris Angel Show and there is nothing supernatural about it.

[VastLand]

Just now, danydandan said:

The power is called the palcebo effect. Miracles don't happen.

Your opinion "smart" guy, but go down to Azteka, and see if they can heal you. I have seen blood clots taken from tissue with no incision. Your own statement is your Placebo affect though, if I may...