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Students get stones to ward off shooters


Still Waters

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A Pennsylvania superintendent has described his unique measure to protect students from potential school shooters - arming them with buckets of stones.

Blue Mountain School District Superintendent David Helsel told state lawmakers earlier this month that some classrooms had been given river stones to throw at attackers.

He said the stone defence was intended as a last resort if evacuations failed.

"Every classroom has been equipped with a five-gallon bucket of river stone," Mr Helsel said at the state's House Education Committee on 15 March.

"If an armed intruder attempts to gain entrance into any of our classrooms, they will face a classroom full of students armed with rocks and they will be stoned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43523797

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Aside from being ineffective, as others have already pointed out, I also don't quite trust the students not to use those rocks for some sort of horseplay and hurting each other.

Why not skip the chase and arm them all with assault rifles? :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Still Waters said:

A Pennsylvania superintendent has described his unique measure to protect students from potential school shooters - arming them with buckets of stones.

Blue Mountain School District Superintendent David Helsel told state lawmakers earlier this month that some classrooms had been given river stones to throw at attackers.

"If an armed intruder attempts to gain entrance into any of our classrooms, they will face a classroom full of students armed with rocks and they will be stoned.

:blink: So how did this clown get to his position? ...and why is he still employed?

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So if one of the kids carries a couple of these stones in his pocket is he going to be suspended for carrying a concealed "weapon"?

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Not that I would consider it my weapon of choice, but I would rather have a stone than nothing.  Walking in the city, a hot Vente Starbucks  in the hand is a weapon of last resort during confrontation.   From personal experience, I can say that a rock in the face will stop someone at least long enough to turn and run like a jackrabbit.  A bloody nose tends to shock someone for a second and even give pause to a couple of sidekicks if they are not too hardened.  It buys you a few steps if you can run.  Wouldn't work for me now, too old and slow.

Bear spray is not foolproof on a bear, but it might work pretty good on a person.  Might be smarter to arm everybody with mace, takes less practice than getting a rock to go where you want it to.

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4 minutes ago, TonopahRick said:

So if one of the kids carries a couple of these stones in his pocket is he going to be suspended for carrying a concealed "weapon"?

Pennsylvania permits required.  Soon if Congress acts you could carry them across state lines.  As long as you don't get caught with a sling.

When I was growing up in Texas, pistols were legal, nun-chucks were not.  Who knows about stones?    

Maybe the American Geophysical Society can start a special  Defensive Lithics subgroup.

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7 hours ago, Still Waters said:

"If an armed intruder attempts to gain entrance into any of our classrooms, they will face a classroom full of students armed with rocks and they will be stoned.

You gotta admit it is pretty biblical.  "Let he who is gun-less cast the first stone."

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18 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Pennsylvania permits required.  Soon if Congress acts you could carry them across state lines.  As long as you don't get caught with a sling.

When I was growing up in Texas, pistols were legal, nun-chucks were not.  Who knows about stones?    

Maybe the American Geophysical Society can start a special  Defensive Lithics subgroup.

Wrist Rockets are illegal in New Jersey but I never saw the law enforced even when they damaged someone or something. I use to wear one of the folding ones when I didn't have enough money for .22s. and a little bag of steel balls taken from the bad throwout bearings on our 6600.

Edited by Piney
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1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Not that I would consider it my weapon of choice, but I would rather have a stone than nothing.  Walking in the city, a hot Vente Starbucks  in the hand is a weapon of last resort during confrontation.   From personal experience, I can say that a rock in the face will stop someone at least long enough to turn and run like a jackrabbit.  A bloody nose tends to shock someone for a second and even give pause to a couple of sidekicks if they are not too hardened.  It buys you a few steps if you can run.  Wouldn't work for me now, too old and slow.

Bear spray is not foolproof on a bear, but it might work pretty good on a person.  Might be smarter to arm everybody with mace, takes less practice than getting a rock to go where you want it to.

As a child I got hit in the forehead with a rock, it bled so much I had trouble seeing to walk home.

I've actually heard that if you don't have access to pepper spray ( And never buy water based, they say it's useless) wasp spray is a great alternative. It has the added advantage of a long range spray. When we teach self defense seminars we always tell people that you need to practice with these weapons if you carry them. It does no good to pull it out and then fumble around figuring out how it works.

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5 hours ago, Piney said:

Wrist Rockets are illegal in New Jersey but I never saw the law enforced even when they damaged someone or something. I use to wear one of the folding ones when I didn't have enough money for .22s. and a little bag of steel balls taken from the bad throwout bearings on our 6600.

Old fashion slings s work pretty good as well although I was never accurate as some.  I did have a girlfriend once that tried to teach me.  She was an anthropology grad student into trying slings and atllatls.  

I gotta admit, I am having a little trouble taking this seriously, it is kinda a fun Saturday topic.  But it does have a serious side I guess.  People are looking for alternatives that are palatable to them.   

Skliss I like the wasp spray idea.  Admittedly a firearm is probably better against a firearm 100 feet away.  Coming around a corner,  wasp spray or a rock might have a chance.  No weapon would be easy to use if the shooter is in a crowd.

I am not a combat veteran so I will defer to those that are.  I believe most of the school and shopping mall shooters in the US are not veterans either.  Maybe that gives alternative defenses a better chance.

I did think the comment that a kid possibly old enough to buy an assault weapon could not be trusted to stay out of mischief around a box of rocks. 

 

Enjoy the weekend.

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I’ve thought about this for a couple days and I don’t think it’s a bad idea. I don’t think it’s a great idea either but a couple dozen kids launching softball sized river rocks at a person could jack him up pretty good. Just saying a bucket of rocks laying around couldn’t hurt but it’s far from the solution. 

Edited by F3SS
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My first thought was that I feel for those poor kids having to face that bucket every day knowing why its there.

My wife however made a great point. She suggested that perhaps a generation of kids being forced to see the real outcome of our national policies on a daily basis will force them to be more civically minded throughout their lives. 

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17 hours ago, Lilly said:

Sure, a bucket of stones can take out a lunatic armed with an AR-15 (<insert extreme sarcasm). 

In a world of stupid ideas this one is really up there. 

well if you think about it.. what was that senator over there that wanted to put the 10 commandments back in schools.. 

Stones were used to kill unbelievers.. *shrugs* just saying.. 

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3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Old fashion slings s work pretty good as well although I was never accurate as some.  I did have a girlfriend once that tried to teach me.  She was an anthropology grad student into trying slings and atllatls.  

I gotta admit, I am having a little trouble taking this seriously, it is kinda a fun Saturday topic.  But it does have a serious side I guess.  People are looking for alternatives that are palatable to them.   

Skliss I like the wasp spray idea.  Admittedly a firearm is probably better against a firearm 100 feet away.  Coming around a corner,  wasp spray or a rock might have a chance.  No weapon would be easy to use if the shooter is in a crowd.

I am not a combat veteran so I will defer to those that are.  I believe most of the school and shopping mall shooters in the US are not veterans either.  Maybe that gives alternative defenses a better chance.

I did think the comment that a kid possibly old enough to buy an assault weapon could not be trusted to stay out of mischief around a box of rocks. 

 

Enjoy the weekend.

If they're going to arm kids with rocks, shouldn't they have target practice once a month? My two kids were standing on a boat launch chucking rocks into the lake. My son winds up and lets one fly only to nail his sister on the forehead. She was standing 15 feet away and parallel to him. I saw it happen and it was a comedy of errors. Imagine how many bad throwers are in a classroom.

Hank

Edit to add: I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not.

 

Edited by Hankenhunter
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Stones really aren't something to scoff at.  Both the Israeli's and our Border Patrol have used lethal force against Palestinians and Mexican youth's throwing them before.  If it can make trained personnel pause, it can surely give an active shooter pause.   And to be blunt, it's within the schools budget with little to no training required.  Thirty kids with fist sized rocks can easily take someone out.

That being said, I'm sure a shooter would do like they usually do and pull a fire alarm and shoot when the students are clustered/otherwise unarmed.

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2 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

If they're going to arm kids with rocks, shouldn't they have target practice once a month? My two kids were standing on a boat launch chucking rocks into the lake. My son winds up and lets one fly only to nail his sister on the forehead. She was standing 15 feet away and parallel to him. I saw it happen and it was a comedy of errors. Imagine how many bad throwers are in a classroom.

Hank

Well rock throwing might be incorporated into PE classes.  Teaching somebody to throw might actually be a useful skill. and healthy.

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1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

That being said, I'm sure a shooter would do like they usually do and pull a fire alarm and shoot when the students are clustered/otherwise unarmed.

More preparedness training.  Always pick up a rock on your way out of the classroom for a fire drill.   Maybe the really cool kids standing in line can even learn to juggle.

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1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

More preparedness training.  Always pick up a rock on your way out of the classroom for a fire drill.   Maybe the really cool kids standing in line can even learn to juggle.

A rock in each hand would be better. No juggling though, its hard to run with broken toes. You know, this is not a bad idea. Having a hundred pounds of rocks being chucked at you, x2 if they're quick,would be enough to put someone down, especially if they practiced on a plywood silhouette. What do they do after, though? Pile on the bad guy till help arrives? Let's see if we can reasonably flesh this out. This could help empower the students a little so they won't feel so scared they can't learn.

Hank

Edited by Hankenhunter
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2 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Stones really aren't something to scoff at.  Both the Israeli's and our Border Patrol have used lethal force against Palestinians and Mexican youth's throwing them before.  If it can make trained personnel pause, it can surely give an active shooter pause.   And to be blunt, it's within the schools budget with little to no training required.  Thirty kids with fist sized rocks can easily take someone out.

That being said, I'm sure a shooter would do like they usually do and pull a fire alarm and shoot when the students are clustered/otherwise unarmed.

Well, maybe policy could be changed to the teacher going out to see if it is a legit fire or not. No smoke would be one red flag. If the teacher doesn't come back, or you hear shots, well then it's time to grab the rocks or grab them anyway just to be prudent. If the door has auto lock out, it should provide some safety for the students. The hallway check by each teacher should take less than 30 seconds including a very quick sweep of the bathrooms. I doubt the shooter would be hiding in a stall. Once the teacher returns, normal fire drill evacuations start, and everyone heads outside under the watchful eyes of security. Hmmm, something seems missing.... got it! Keep it as simple as possible to avoid complications.

Hank

Edited by Hankenhunter
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Add slingshots to those bucket of stones and teach them to aim for the head is much better. One of those students is bound to hit the shooter in the head. And just one hit in the head with one stone is bad enough, imagine if a few more hit the shooter in the head after the first hit. The shooter is at least going down dazed and confused. Then they can all pounce on the shooter at that point.

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7 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

If they're going to arm kids with rocks, shouldn't they have target practice once a month? My two kids were standing on a boat launch chucking rocks into the lake. My son winds up and lets one fly only to nail his sister on the forehead. She was standing 15 feet away and parallel to him. I saw it happen and it was a comedy of errors. Imagine how many bad throwers are in a classroom.

Hank

Edit to add: I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not.

 

From my days teaching P.E. at primary schools, I can confirm getting them to throw anything is inherently risky. 

Best idea would be tell them to aim for the teacher. About half will probably hit the shooter that way. 

 

Calvinandhobbes21.jpg

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