March for Our Lives Rally To End Gun Violence

[+and-then]

2 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Two voting cycles andthen, that is all it is going to take

2020?  I'm not sure what it is you expect but if you think that any change short of extreme control/confiscation is the goal then you are hopelessly naive, IMO.  I wonder, will you be as chagrined over the deaths of U.S. citizens who are fighting FOR their rights to keep arms?  Because this is ultimately where this train goes, Kismit.  Your disbelief or protestations aside.  One does not have to be a history scholar to see what happens when a government begins to demand more and more gun control, even though such controls do not solve the problem.

[Kismit]

Just now, and then said:

2020?  I'm not sure what it is you expect but if you think that any change short of extreme control/confiscation is the goal then you are hopelessly naive, IMO.  I wonder, will you be as chagrined over the deaths of U.S. citizens who are fighting FOR their rights to keep arms?  Because this is ultimately where this train goes, Kismit.  Your disbelief or protestations aside.  One does not have to be a history scholar to see what happens when a government begins to demand more and more gun control, even though such controls do not solve the problem.

By 2020 there will be more younger people voting and less older people. I may be wrong, perhaps even the 12 year olds in this rally who will be elligable to vote will change how they feel about gun control before they hit 18, maybe they will stop caring, but something tells me they won't. A change is coming.

It makes me happy.

[Space Commander Travis]

18 minutes ago, and then said:

The media here are pushing the idea that it occurred because of some nation-wide groundswell of support by the "children". 

Then what was it then? Organised by Dark Forces (i.e. the Democrats) ? You really don't think the "children" (in, for some reason, ironic quote marks) might actually be a little fed up with the way that this happens so often?

[Space Commander Travis]

7 minutes ago, and then said:

  One does not have to be a history scholar to see what happens when a government begins to demand more and more gun control, even though such controls do not solve the problem.

Well ..

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/5-countries-with-strict-gun-control-laws.html

("See! China!" you might say, but the other four are noted for their authoritarian governments?

Well ok, the UK is, but Canada, Australia and Japan, at any rate?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

3 minutes ago, Kismit said:

By 2020 there will be more younger people voting and less older people. I may be wrong, perhaps even the 12 year olds in this rally who will be elligable to vote will change how they feel about gun control before they hit 18, maybe they will stop caring, but something tells me they won't. A change is coming.

It makes me happy.

[Kismit]

2 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Damn you grammer...... damn you.

There will be fewer. Not less than the young ones, but fewer than there are now.

[Tatetopa]

We love our kids and grand kids and want to protect them so there is a lot of emotional pull in this march,  Funded and advised, probably so, not sure how much difference that makes.  Probably not a lot will change even when they are old enough to vote.

 Still, youth has a certain innocence and belief that they can change things.   Aren't we guilty of telling our kids that they can change their future?  Would it be better if we told them just to give up because things will never get any better?   Shall we tell them that we don't really give a crap about solving mental health issues and if they want to be safer, they should do it all themselves?  Shall we tell them to council troubled youth themselves because parents and school systems are too busy or broke to care?  That would sure be the easiest most adult course of action.

Guns aren't going away anytime soon and they should not.

You have a real reason to have them for self protection.That is reality in some areas of the country.  Should we consider what that reason is and try to fix it, maybe? It comes down to where we want spend our money.

You have a reason to have them for hunting,  My wife's family grew up on wild game in the larder because my father-in-law had to find a way to feed his family.  He was an awesome man.

You have a right to keep guns to become terrorists and overthrow the government if you can.  You are terrorists until you win. That is your Second Amendment guaranteed right.  Most people would not challenge you on that. Be happy.

Before you say that more guns will make us safer, think a minute and just shut up.  That is the line that separates responsible gun ownership from pornographic gun ownership.   More assault weapons or concealed weapons will not make us safer.

 

 

[Setton]

6 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

To leap to And Then defence - he and others HAVE in the past said that people who are unstable shouldn’t have access to guns. They lay the blame at the feet of irresponsible gun owners for allowing people in the middle of psychotic episodes to have access to guns.

My post wasn't replying to and then. It was to the delightful poster saying the kids are to to blame for being shot because they don't police themselves well enough. 

But that's been deleted now anyway. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

23 minutes ago, Setton said:

My post wasn't replying to and then. It was to the delightful poster saying the kids are to to blame for being shot because they don't police themselves well enough. 

But that's been deleted now anyway. 

Sorry dude, I thought you were quoting Andy.

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Kismit said:

I bet no one could have called you niave.

At 16 i joined GreenPeace thinking I could save the world, also at 16 I left GreenPeace when I realised (without influence) that GreenPeace had many policies that put the environment or an animal species above the rights of other human beings. 

Young people are not niave because they are young and older people are not wise because they are old. There is no magic switch that kicks in at 18 or 21. Infact if your ability for independent critical thought has not kicked in by 12 it is not going to.

Risk taking, Rule breaking teens, don't tend to conform to adult standards all that well.

 

I have so many mixed feelings about this subject I'm afraid to comment. The kid who led the march at the Cherry Hill, New Jersey schools sued the schools so he can have his therapy dog for anxiety attacks. What crap! His father is a civil rights lawyer who doesn't believe in private gun ownership yet wants armed cops in schools. I don't believe in armed cops in schools except that they should carry non-lethal weapons like prison guards. Rubber bullets and beanbags in their guns and I do believe in private gun ownership. 

 Like I said before this is not a gun issue, it's a inaction issue 

 This is a prime example of using a kid for your own agenda. Read about Ben Shore. http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2018/03/nj_student_leaders_parkland_walkout_march_14_never.html

[Space Commander Travis]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

What crap! His father is a civil rights lawyer who doesn't believe in private gun ownership yet wants armed cops in schools.

Why is that a contradiction? Many people would feel, rightly or wrongly, that it'd be better to have trained professionals handling guns, if guns are needed at all, than to allow everyone to tote one, however much or little training or experience they may have had. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Vlad the Mighty

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Why is that a contradiction? Many people would feel, rightly or wrongly, that it'd be better to have trained professionals handling guns, if guns are needed at all, than to allow everyone to tote one, however much or little training or experience they may have had. 

How many of your friends or kids' friends have been shot by cops panicking or just because the cops were punks?  This is suddenly a white thing but it always went on in the Ghetto. I had a close friend we called Cat Man in high school who was harmless, but was gunned down by cops. We never found out the full story. 

There is no need for lethal weapons in schools.....

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

23 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Why is that a contradiction? Many people would feel, rightly or wrongly, that it'd be better to have trained professionals handling guns, if guns are needed at all, than to allow everyone to tote one, however much or little training or experience they may have had. 

I think they call that “white privilege”, becauase I reckon the African American community would NOT feel (or even be) safer with armed police around them.

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I think they call that “white privilege”, becauase I reckon the African American community would NOT feel (or even be) safer with armed police around them.

or the Indian Community....

[RAyMO]

24 minutes ago, Piney said:

There is no need for lethal weapons in schools..

armed, stressed teachers what could possibly go wrong!

[Piney]

30 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Why is that a contradiction? Many people would feel, rightly or wrongly, that it'd be better to have trained professionals handling guns, if guns are needed at all, than to allow everyone to tote one, however much or little training or experience they may have had. 

and who can define a "trained professional"? I was a IPSC and DCM shooter when I was a CAP cadet. I carried a Colt SSA and Enfield when I was a outrider for ranches and tribal security but I was never "trained". I never had a "accident" either....

[Piney]

@Vlad the Mighty My youngest is autistic and throws his little ASD temper tantrums. I don't want a friggin armed cop anywhere near him...

[Gunn]

3 hours ago, Kismit said:

By 2020 there will be more younger people voting and less older people. I may be wrong, perhaps even the 12 year olds in this rally who will be elligable to vote will change how they feel about gun control before they hit 18, maybe they will stop caring, but something tells me they won't. A change is coming.

It makes me happy.

Betcha' it won't be the change you're hoping for when it comes to gun control. And unfortunately, we'll see more future mass shootings from more mentally ill people who are a threat to others or themselves.

 

5 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Same with the mental health argument. The pro status quo side  keeps pounding the drum that this is a mental health issue, not a gun issue, all the while ignoring that the ultimate arbitrator for such decisions as who is mentally sound will be the same government they want to keep their guns to defend against. 

 

Dude we ain't talking about coming into someone's house and taking their guns away instantly, just because someone has been diagnosed with a mental illness that doesn't really define them as a threat. We're talking about the ones who threaten to kill others or themselves and shout it out in public several times before they go postal. The ones who have been reported in several times and nobody did a damn thing about it when the authorities could have.

Edit to add: All I'm saying is there can be a fine line that can be easily be drawn between mental health and any gun confiscation concerns that are not justifiable. Surely if you knew of someone like Cruz who made all kinds of threats like he did, you'd want them to immediately get the help they needed before they turned a gun on you or someone else you know. Why let it get that bad before it's too late?

Edited March 25, 2018 by Gunn

[Space Commander Travis]

54 minutes ago, Piney said:

@Vlad the Mighty My youngest is autistic and throws his little ASD temper tantrums. I don't want a friggin armed cop anywhere near him...

Yes, you're probably right. I was thinking of British police, who are, on the whole, still safe to have around even with a gun in their hand.  

[+and-then]

10 hours ago, Kismit said:

It makes me happy

Glad to know it.  I live my life trying to please citizens of other nations who disagree with my culture for being regressive at best, broke-stupid at worst.  I note that you did not touch that rather important question I posed, about the dying that well might accompany the end of this process.  I realize that, like most other non-U.S. posters here, you are fully aware of how things truly are here and that your assessment of cultural trends assure you that no government would EVER attempt to actually take away the citizen's rights to own firearms, but for the sake of discussion - will you be as concerned with the bloodshed of people like me and others who defend the 2nd amendment, if the day comes that we stand to defend it and lose OUR LIVES?  I mean, you seem a nice person, Kismit, but you know, you just might be in error about a culture you don't live in.  So what about the rest of us, backward heathen that we may seem, what of OUR right to live as we see fit?  

I don't know you but I do know a few people who would quietly cheer the idea of people like me, getting what they "deserve" for not doing as others feel would be best for me and mine.  So?  

[+and-then]

10 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Well ..

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/5-countries-with-strict-gun-control-laws.html

("See! China!" you might say, but the other four are noted for their authoritarian governments?

Well ok, the UK is, but Canada, Australia and Japan, at any rate?

You can look at what is happening in the U.S. and E.U. today and make such an argument with a straight face?  You're telling me you actually TRUST the leaders of your country to always do the "right" thing and to never veer toward oppression or totalitarianism?  Funny, took you for being a bit more mature than that.

[Occult1]

Those who have watched The Walking Dead know why we need armed citizens.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

1 hour ago, and then said:

Glad to know it.  I live my life trying to please citizens of other nations who disagree with my culture for being regressive at best, broke-stupid at worst.  I note that you did not touch that rather important question I posed, about the dying that well might accompany the end of this process.  I realize that, like most other non-U.S. posters here, you are fully aware of how things truly are here and that your assessment of cultural trends assure you that no government would EVER attempt to actually take away the citizen's rights to own firearms, but for the sake of discussion - will you be as concerned with the bloodshed of people like me and others who defend the 2nd amendment, if the day comes that we stand to defend it and lose OUR LIVES?  I mean, you seem a nice person, Kismit, but you know, you just might be in error about a culture you don't live in.  So what about the rest of us, backward heathen that we may seem, what of OUR right to live as we see fit?  

I don't know you but I do know a few people who would quietly cheer the idea of people like me, getting what they "deserve" for not doing as others feel would be best for me and mine.  So?  

This entire post is unnecessarily rude. Dial it back.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, and then said:

You can look at what is happening in the U.S. and E.U. today and make such an argument with a straight face?  You're telling me you actually TRUST the leaders of your country to always do the "right" thing and to never veer toward oppression or totalitarianism?  Funny, took you for being a bit more mature than that.

The government is utterly self abosrobed and entirely useless. Yours. Mine. Theirs. All governments are. You know what stops them from going totalitarian? It’s not the odd angry member of the polis being armed. It’s the fact they couldn’t organise a root in a brothel with a suitcase full of hundreds. 

In the history of the world, no sitting government, established opposition party or formal political movement ever became a dictatorship or a junta, it was always the angry ones. The political outsiders. The oppressed (or those who felt oppressed) roused into a rebellion by demagogues. 

The ones who felt their voices weren’t being heard. 

Hitler and the Nazis? Outsiders who bullied their way to a stunning 30% of the vote and then bullied their way into power because of weak easily manipulated men in government.  

Lenin? Ineffectual ruler + unpopular war + oppressed polis = revolution. 

Even your own revolutionary war happened because they felt they were unheard and oppressed. 

 

No amount of guns in civilian hands are going to stop a “popular uprising”. But listening to what the people are demanding, and acting on that will. If King George had given the 13 colonies seats in parliament, you’d all still be part of the Commonwealth (probably Federated like Australia and India were). 

[+and-then]

31 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The government is utterly self abosrobed and entirely useless. Yours. Mine. Theirs. All governments are. You know what stops them from going totalitarian? It’s not the odd angry member of the polis being armed. It’s the fact they couldn’t organise a root in a brothel with a suitcase full of hundreds. 

In the history of the world, no sitting government, established opposition party or formal political movement ever became a dictatorship or a junta, it was always the angry ones. The political outsiders. The oppressed (or those who felt oppressed) roused into a rebellion by demagogues. 

The ones who felt their voices weren’t being heard. 

Hitler and the Nazis? Outsiders who bullied their way to a stunning 30% of the vote and then bullied their way into power because of weak easily manipulated men in government.  

Lenin? Ineffectual ruler + unpopular war + oppressed polis = revolution. 

Even your own revolutionary war happened because they felt they were unheard and oppressed. 

 

No amount of guns in civilian hands are going to stop a “popular uprising”. But listening to what the people are demanding, and acting on that will. If King George had given the 13 colonies seats in parliament, you’d all still be part of the Commonwealth (probably Federated like Australia and India were). 

You say so.  Apparently, my opinions and questions are immaterial to this discussion so I think it's time to leave you all to it.  You do know better than the people who actually live here, after all.