Amazon shares slump as Trump goes after them

[Setton]

11 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

They are not just closing mom and pop stores, they are shutting damn near everyone down. And of course that isn't their problem, but it is ours. Strong local economies are important.

I thought you were a fan of the free market? 

Quote

NTM the slave labor, and not paying a cent in federal taxes.

That makes them smart. 

[preacherman76]

57 minutes ago, Setton said:

I thought you were a fan of the free market? 

That makes them smart. 

I am. It’s definitely a sticky situation though. I’m not so for it that I’d just assume let the entire economy sink over it. I do believe in labor laws as well. Them using slaves doesn’t make them smart. It makes them evil. Why would you be for that?  That’s sick. 

[preacherman76]

I really hope you didn't take the position of pro slavery just so you could disagree with me. That's something that really should be thought through. It surprises me to hear you are for it.

[Duke Wellington]

15 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Source.

While it definitely should be noted that Trump going after Amazon is mainly directed at its owner for political reasons and that, after the massive tax break for billionaires and corporations that Trump championed, the attack is also hypocritical and a massive double standard, he is absolutely correct here.

Amazon - not only in the US - enjoys massive tax breaks. I mean, you could fund the entire education departments of some countries where they are afforded these tax breaks. I don't know how they manage it. A combination of bribery and extortion maybe? Whatever the reasons that they are awarded these breaks, something needs to be done about them and others like them that have become so massive they are allowed to bleed countries of their owed income.

The owner of Amazon (Jeff Bezos) has a wealth of $124 billion while paying himself a salary of $1.6 billion per year as managing director. Such a vast fortune and wage packet are the result of tax avoidance where Amazon distribution centres are cunningly located in low VAT countries or States (if its the US). Here in the UK Amazon have played a leading roll in sending 130 high street names bankrupt and while the consumer gets a better deal the nation doesnt. Why? Amazon profits are money going out of the country with very little being spent here.

Jeff Bezos isn't even spending it, he is sitting on a mountain of wealth. I think global governments should intervene to correct this market failure where one firm outcompetes all comers by avoiding paying its fair share. For the super rich we should have a global tax of 75% of wealth and that should be distributed out to countries on the basis of sales revenue made in each country. Not for socialism (I hate socialism) but if everyone else has to pay VAT then multi-national organisations deserve no special treatment.

 

[Setton]

1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

I am. It’s definitely a sticky situation though. I’m not so for it that I’d just assume let the entire economy sink over it. I do believe in labor laws as well. Them using slaves doesn’t make them smart. It makes them evil. Why would you be for that?  That’s sick. 

I'm not. I was quoting your president. 

[Myles]

15 hours ago, Agent0range said:

That's not their problem.  Are we supposed to teach budding entrepreneurs not to innovate in fear that it will hurt the people that can't catch up?  Are we supposed to tell them "hey, just don't grow your company too big" because some mom and pop shops might close?  This whole marketplace tax thing makes no sense anyway.  The Supreme Court ruled that catalog companies that sold things through the mail didn't have to charge state taxes in states that they did not have a physical location in.  What's the difference if the catalog is online?  

I never said it is their problem.   But it is silly not to acknowledge it is a bi product we all deal with.   

[Myles]

10 hours ago, Agent0range said:

 I never paid a dime of tax, federal or state on Ebay, but that doesn't seem to be an issue.

I don't think Ebay even compares to Amazon.

I loved Ebay in its first couple years.   When most of the stuff on there were items people found while cleaning out their garage.   Then the retailers took control and you can rarely find good stuff. 

[preacherman76]

1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

The owner of Amazon (Jeff Bezos) has a wealth of $124 billion while paying himself a salary of $1.6 billion per year as managing director. Such a vast fortune and wage packet are the result of tax avoidance where Amazon distribution centres are cunningly located in low VAT countries or States (if its the US). Here in the UK Amazon have played a leading roll in sending 130 high street names bankrupt and while the consumer gets a better deal the nation doesnt. Why? Amazon profits are money going out of the country with very little being spent here.

Jeff Bezos isn't even spending it, he is sitting on a mountain of wealth. I think global governments should intervene to correct this market failure where one firm outcompetes all comers by avoiding paying its fair share. For the super rich we should have a global tax of 75% of wealth and that should be distributed out to countries on the basis of sales revenue made in each country. Not for socialism (I hate socialism) but if everyone else has to pay VAT then multi-national organisations deserve no special treatment.

 

I was with you till you started talking about armed robbery taking most of a corporations wealth. 75% global tax? Why don’t you just go in an bomb the place to the ground? The results will be the same. 

[preacherman76]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

I'm not. I was quoting your president. 

He said slavery was smart? 

[preacherman76]

10 minutes ago, Myles said:

I don't think Ebay even compares to Amazon.

I loved Ebay in its first couple years.   When most of the stuff on there were items people found while cleaning out their garage.   Then the retailers took control and you can rarely find good stuff. 

Oh me to. I sold a 1945 coke a cola thermometer, that I found cleaning out my grandfathers garage. I didn’t think I’d get anything for it cause it was in really bad shape. Made 200 bucks. I couldn’t believe it. 

[Myles]

The TV shows had an affect on stuff too.   Antique roadshow, Pawn Stars and others.   Suddenly everyone thought their junk was worth lots of money.  Others were willing to pay more for crap.  

[Gromdor]

6 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

 

 

Is it really "Capitalism" that's necessary and very good, or competition? Capitalism contains a contradiction by its very nature. It claims to improve people's lives by promoting competition and offering the people Choice, but the very nature of it is to do away with competition by the huge and gigantic concerns swallowing up the smaller competitors - and when a company gets a gigantic as any of the Silicon Valley  giants, they undoubtedly don't offer a superior service to the smaller competitors they swallow up. By its very nature, the bigger something is the less efficient and competitive it is- which is the problem with state owned industries.

Capitalism doesn't promise to improve peoples lives nor does it value a given society or have patriotism.  It is survival of the fittest, where everyone clashes and evolves to be leaner and more efficient.  It's the reason why welfare exists- because to have winners you have to have losers.  Our monopoly laws were invented to stop the mega-predators and break them down into smaller competing entities.

[Gromdor]

6 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

...just to add, another problem with these behemoths of industry is they reach a point of not just competing but they stop to innovate. why should they anymore. they just have to constantly buy out startups and small fish that do come out with new and exciting products and services. their existence is purely a product of their uncontested size. 

One of my buddies is a "capital investor".  He goes around to start-ups and throws millions at them.  One of the conditions for the money is that you have to structure your company in a way that allows for easy buyout from a larger company in event of failure (or success).

[Space Commander Travis]

1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

Capitalism doesn't promise to improve peoples lives nor does it value a given society or have patriotism.  It is survival of the fittest, where everyone clashes and evolves to be leaner and more efficient.  It's the reason why welfare exists- because to have winners you have to have losers.  Our monopoly laws were invented to stop the mega-predators and break them down into smaller competing entities.

That's true, but ti's so often seen as being to all intents and purposes the same thing as democracy, isn't it. There are many people who think that you can't have democracy without capitalism, hence all the horrified outrage at "socialism" there is among some parts of the American Right, which people think will mean that the Government will take control of everything and compel people to work in Government Forced Labor Camps.  

[Gromdor]

Just now, Vlad the Mighty said:

That's true, but ti's so often seen as being to all intents and purposes the same thing as democracy, isn't it. There are many people who think that you can't have democracy without capitalism, hence all the horrified outrage at "socialism" there is among some parts of the American Right, which people think will mean that the Government will take control of everything and compel people to work in Government Forced Labor Camps.  

Nah, democracy is something completely different.  You can have a capitalistic democracy just as easily as you can have a socialistic democracy.  One is a form of governance while the other is a form of commerce. 

[Setton]

4 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

He said slavery was smart? 

You know what he said and you know what I was referring to. 

Stop pretending to be stupid, we both know you're not. 

[Unusual Tournament]

7 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Capitalism doesn't promise to improve peoples lives nor does it value a given society or have patriotism.  It is survival of the fittest, where everyone clashes and evolves to be leaner and more efficient.  It's the reason why welfare exists- because to have winners you have to have losers.  Our monopoly laws were invented to stop the mega-predators and break them down into smaller competing entities.

okay that's a fair statement but when capitalism morphs into a race to become not just the strongest but also uncontested, things get a little blurry.

are monopoly laws up today? the main culprits Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsolf etc etc seem to control markets by creating closed ecosystems that only allow minimal competition. with structures that allow tax and economies of scale that others find impossible to compete with. business infrastructure becomes the new monopoly not the actual business. catch phrases like the "new" economy, "sharing economy," "embrace the machines" are just cleaver ways to circumvent labour laws and work practices. as if the economy has two speeds and two different sets of laws. One for the "old" economy and one for the "new."

But it would be a brave politician that got in the way of such a consumer friendly "new economy." i commend Trump for making a stand but unfortunately its for the wrong reasons. 

 

[Gromdor]

22 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

okay that's a fair statement but when capitalism morphs into a race to become not just the strongest but also uncontested, things get a little blurry.

are monopoly laws up today? the main culprits Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsolf etc etc seem to control markets by creating closed ecosystems that only allow minimal competition. with structures that allow tax and economies of scale that others find impossible to compete with. business infrastructure becomes the new monopoly not the actual business. catch phrases like the "new" economy, "sharing economy," "embrace the machines" are just cleaver ways to circumvent labour laws and work practices. as if the economy has two speeds and two different sets of laws. One for the "old" economy and one for the "new."

But it would be a brave politician that got in the way of such a consumer friendly "new economy." i commend Trump for making a stand but unfortunately its for the wrong reasons. 

 

Nah, I think it's swung way over into the mega-corporations favor.  The protections against "too big to fail" are all gone,  financial advisors fiduciary responsibility to their clients are gone in favor of profit to the company,  eminent domain  is routinely used nowadays for companies benefits (cuz taking land for companies is helping America, supposedly), wall street uses computerized "microtransactions" to constantly drain pennies away from stocks and peoples retirements, etc.   The list is endless.    

[Agent0range]

2 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

okay that's a fair statement but when capitalism morphs into a race to become not just the strongest but also uncontested, things get a little blurry.

are monopoly laws up today? the main culprits Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsolf etc etc seem to control markets by creating closed ecosystems that only allow minimal competition. with structures that allow tax and economies of scale that others find impossible to compete with. business infrastructure becomes the new monopoly not the actual business. catch phrases like the "new" economy, "sharing economy," "embrace the machines" are just cleaver ways to circumvent labour laws and work practices. as if the economy has two speeds and two different sets of laws. One for the "old" economy and one for the "new."

But it would be a brave politician that got in the way of such a consumer friendly "new economy." i commend Trump for making a stand but unfortunately its for the wrong reasons. 

 

Monopoly?  I can get my toilet paper and paper towels from a plethora of stores near me.  The fact that I choose to go with Amazon due to free 2-day shipping, and a comparable price doesn't make it a monopoly.  A monopoly is when there is no competition...not better competition.

[Space Commander Travis]

6 hours ago, Agent0range said:

Monopoly?  I can get my toilet paper and paper towels from a plethora of stores near me.  The fact that I choose to go with Amazon due to free 2-day shipping,

So you say, "oh, ****, I need some bathroom tissue*", so you click onto Amazing and faff around with payment details and all the rest of it, and then you only have two days to improvise with something else (I hope you have  daily newspaper) till it arrives, by Drone from Amazing's global HQ in California! It really is a wonderful breakthrough, so much quicker and easier than having to gt in your car and drive to a Shop and hand over money and have the product right there in your hand there and then! 

*we're genteel around here

[Agent0range]

7 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

So you say, "oh, ****, I need some bathroom tissue*", so you click onto Amazing and faff around with payment details and all the rest of it, and then you only have two days to improvise with something else (I hope you have  daily newspaper) till it arrives, by Drone from Amazing's global HQ in California! It really is a wonderful breakthrough, so much quicker and easier than having to gt in your car and drive to a Shop and hand over money and have the product right there in your hand there and then! 

*we're genteel around here

Payment details?  It's one click shopping, and we buy in bulk.  And no, it doesn't arrive from their global headquarters in California (yes, I know that was sarcasm), it arrives from the local fulfillment center which employs over 1,000 people, including my brother, who make a decent wage and receives healthcare.  Screw Wal-Mart.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Agent0range

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, Agent0range said:

Payment details?  It's one click shopping, and we buy in bulk.  And no, it doesn't arrive from their global headquarters in California (yes, I know that was sarcasm), it arrives from the local fulfillment center which employs over 1,000 people, including my brother, who make a decent wage and receives healthcare.  Screw Wal-Mart.

Yeah, Amazon employs 566,000 people.  It does like the robots too: https://qz.com/1107112/there-are-170000-fewer-retail-jobs-in-2017-and-75000-more-amazon-robots/

The average pay is $19/hr with benefits.  Better than Walmart for sure. 

(I received beef jerky, gummy bear molds and a new keyboard from Amazon yesterday that the wife ordered.  She wanted Lysander's lentil soup mix as well, but it appears they are out of stock or don't make it anymore)

[Agent0range]

12 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Yeah, Amazon employs 566,000 people.  It does like the robots too: https://qz.com/1107112/there-are-170000-fewer-retail-jobs-in-2017-and-75000-more-amazon-robots/

The average pay is $19/hr with benefits.  Better than Walmart for sure. 

(I received beef jerky, gummy bear molds and a new keyboard from Amazon yesterday that the wife ordered.  She wanted Lysander's lentil soup mix as well, but it appears they are out of stock or don't make it anymore)

I live in a fairly rural area.  I'm just not driving 30 minutes every other day to go to Wal-Mart to get the things I need...

[Gromdor]

2 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

I live in a fairly rural area.  I'm just not driving 30 minutes every other day to go to Wal-Mart to get the things I need...

Heh, did a coal gasification plant in North Dakota.  There are only seven Walmarts in the whole state and most businesses are closed on Sundays.  Kind of sucks when you are working six 12hr days and need something.  Amazon is just too convenient. Back here in Iowa local stores here in town are doing the online ordering and delivering thing as well.  I'm a little leery of the grocery stores doing it.  Would like to pick out my own produce and check freshness dates.

[Space Commander Travis]

16 hours ago, Agent0range said:

Payment details?  It's one click shopping, and we buy in bulk.  And no, it doesn't arrive from their global headquarters in California (yes, I know that was sarcasm), it arrives from the local fulfillment center which employs over 1,000 people, including my brother, who make a decent wage and receives healthcare.  Screw Wal-Mart.

Surely you can see that they're both exactly the same products of the process of capitalism that we were talking about. Walmart employ thousands as well; probably a lot more than Amazing, even if the latter may be more caring. But do you think that that would be likely to continue if Amazon was to, hypothetically, take a nosedive? How long do you think their Californian caring would last then?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Vlad the Mighty