Poll: Majority Support Medicare-For-All

[MiskatonicGrad]

1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

Canada says hello. No nightmares, and no million page forms. Easy peasy health care for all. All taken care of when you're born. You've been fed a steaming load for so long that you think it tastes good.

Hank

And if I wanted that I would move to Canada which I wish all the people who want "free" healthcare would. America has not and should never model what it does on Canada, Europe, or any other place. There was a time when the rest of the world looked to America to see how it should be done. When we went from a collection of colonies to a world power in less than a century because the people who came here didn't want do it like everyone else they wanted to do it there way. The United States is not set up for the government to have half the power it does adding to it will do no good. If you want free (which it isn't ) healthcare move there please!

[Hankenhunter]

28 minutes ago, MiskatonicGrad said:

And if I wanted that I would move to Canada which I wish all the people who want "free" healthcare would. America has not and should never model what it does on Canada, Europe, or any other place. There was a time when the rest of the world looked to America to see how it should be done. When we went from a collection of colonies to a world power in less than a century because the people who came here didn't want do it like everyone else they wanted to do it there way. The United States is not set up for the government to have half the power it does adding to it will do no good. If you want free (which it isn't ) healthcare move there please!

Well, why didn't you say that instead of giving lame excuses as to why it won't work. You just don't want it to work.

Hank

Edited March 31, 2018 by Hankenhunter

[+DieChecker]

17 hours ago, Aquila King said:

You're not accounting for the disabled, those who are currently laid off, those who do have a job but their specific job doesn't provide insurance, those who work just below the official full-time pay schedule (as many minimum wage jobs do) just so their employer doesn't have to provide healthcare benefits, those who don't make enough to pay money towards deductibles, regular co-pays, and medicine, etc. etc.

It's simple and easy to just say "they should just get a job". That's the lazy man's way of answering it, while ignoring the numerous other variables that contribute to our current public health crisis.

Huh? I thought I mentioned those who couldn't work, for whatever reason. Oh, yeah... I did... Maybe practice reading comprehension?

If someone is working for a company that doesn't give healthcare, that is on them. They can quit and go work for Walmart, or McDonalds, or Taco Bell.... Lots of low experience, low education jobs with insurance. 

If businesses that don't give healthcare can't find employees, then they will either die, or hand out healthcare. That is capitalism. The fact that some do not give out healthcare usually means there is something else balancing that lack. Or, that there are enough people with Zero skills, and Zero experience, and Zero education, so they don't care. 

Meaning if you want healthcare, go get skills, experience or education. It is that easy. 

It is not lazy... Lazy is laying on a bed waiting for healthcare to come to you.

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The problem with your logic here is that literally every other modern nation on the face of the Earth provides some form of single-payer healthcare. Yet you never hear of mass numbers of people in those countries sitting back not working now do you?

I swear, it's like you people never look outside of your own bubble here in the US.

True. And they all profit off the 90% of advancements in medicine and techniques that are generated in the US. If the rest of the world had to pathfind their own new medicines and procedures, they'd end up paying more too.

I swear it is like people live in a bubble in the rest of the world. (...and by rest of the world, I mean the "enlightened" nations of far Western Europe.... Eastern Europe is full of barbarians like the US.)

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1) "Half your money" is an exaggeration.

2) The overwhelming vast majority of increased taxes would be placed on the super-rich, so it wouldn't affect you hardly at all.

3) By eliminating insurance premiums, co-pays for doctor visits, and the cost of prescription medication, most people would actually save more money to make up any difference in increased taxes, so this idea that any tax increases placed on you would somehow put you in a financial hole is utter nonsense.

4) I'd say most of you have never even read Bernie Sanders' actual economic plan for implementing Medicare-for-All, and don't care to. Your minds are already made up before hand.

1) That's right, because in Sweden, and Denmark, it is closer to 60%.

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In order to raise a lot of income tax revenue, income tax rates in Scandinavian countries are rather high except for in Norway. Denmark’s top marginal effective income tax rate is 60.4 percent. Sweden’s is 56.4 percent. Norway’s top marginal tax rate is 39 percent.

...

Scandinavian income taxes raise a lot of revenue because they are actually rather flat. In other words, they tax most people at these high rates, not just high-income taxpayers. 

In other words, those people who made $20,000 and didn't pay anything, and now get a $4000 return due to credits and deductions... are going to have to pay $12,000 of their $20,000 and get no return at all. 

People are going to love that. Just so they can visit the doctor a couple times a year for free? Yeah, people are going to love that.

2) BS... Even if we doubled the taxes on the rich. It would only generate an extra $1.6 trillion, which is not even enough to pay for free University for all, much less free Healthcare for all. Even taking 100% of the income of the rich is doomed, unless we somehow cause the costs of education and healthcare to be cut by 33% to 50% what they are right now.

3) True, but not because of any special math. But because almost 50% of tax payers get all that they paid back in a tax return every year. If the US assumed a Sweden style model, those same people would be facing 40 to 50% tax rates, and no tax returns at all.

4) From what I have read Bernie's plan was highly controversial, and mocked by most economists. That is given that it would require a rework of the the entire US economy. Including very high taxes. Bernie seemed to hand wave these arguments, rather then taking them on head on. Because he was just throwing out feel good "tax the rich", rhetoric that has almost zero actual evidence it would work. Especially given what we have now economically.

[Aquila King]

6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Meaning if you want healthcare, go get skills, experience or education. It is that easy. 

It is not lazy... Lazy is laying on a bed waiting for healthcare to come to you.

That's the underlying difference between you and I. While I obviously don't support laziness, I don't consider laziness to be enough cause for a death sentence. Furthermore, nobody's overall health and well-being should be a for-profit industry. Lives should never be viewed as dollar signs. Period.

Also, perhaps it is some sort of untreated physical or mental illness that's preventing them from obtaining skills, experience, or education? There are a myriad of varying circumstances or situations that lead to some people losing their jobs, and thereby losing their healthcare coverage. What about all the innocent factory workers who worked hard their whole lives but simply had their jobs shipped over seas by some horrible trade deal? If they get sick or injured while in the process of looking for work, should they remain sick and out of work or even die, simply because the company they worked hard their whole life for shipped their job over to China? Do you really want to take that position while claiming to support workers? What about unavoidable situations such as company lay-offs that exist in any Capitalist system regardless of the state of the economy? What if something happens to those people during the transition? What about people's families who are often times on the same insurance plans? If you lose you job due to lay-offs, should your spouse or child remain sick or die simply because you don't currently have a job?

Bottom line is, no one deserves to die, or to remain sick, simply because they don't have a job or education, etc. No one. Healthcare is not a subject that should ever be a part of a for-profit system. If you disagree with me on that, then that simply comes down to a different set of moral values, not mere political ideologies.

[Aquila King]

6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

True. And they all profit off the 90% of advancements in medicine and techniques that are generated in the US. If the rest of the world had to pathfind their own new medicines and procedures, they'd end up paying more too.

I swear it is like people live in a bubble in the rest of the world. (...and by rest of the world, I mean the "enlightened" nations of far Western Europe.... Eastern Europe is full of barbarians like the US.)

1) That's right, because in Sweden, and Denmark, it is closer to 60%.

In other words, those people who made $20,000 and didn't pay anything, and now get a $4000 return due to credits and deductions... are going to have to pay $12,000 of their $20,000 and get no return at all. 

People are going to love that. Just so they can visit the doctor a couple times a year for free? Yeah, people are going to love that.

2) BS... Even if we doubled the taxes on the rich. It would only generate an extra $1.6 trillion, which is not even enough to pay for free University for all, much less free Healthcare for all. Even taking 100% of the income of the rich is doomed, unless we somehow cause the costs of education and healthcare to be cut by 33% to 50% what they are right now.

3) True, but not because of any special math. But because almost 50% of tax payers get all that they paid back in a tax return every year. If the US assumed a Sweden style model, those same people would be facing 40 to 50% tax rates, and no tax returns at all.

4) From what I have read Bernie's plan was highly controversial, and mocked by most economists. That is given that it would require a rework of the the entire US economy. Including very high taxes. Bernie seemed to hand wave these arguments, rather then taking them on head on. Because he was just throwing out feel good "tax the rich", rhetoric that has almost zero actual evidence it would work. Especially given what we have now economically.

As for the rest of this, it's Easter, and I don't feel like going into all of the numbers and figures at the moment. I'll address all this stuff at a later date.

[F3SS]

I’d leave it alone. Diechecker will destroy you with logic. He’s known for it.

As for Canada, you guys have the population of one or two of our big cities. Things works differently when you’re climbing towards 350M people.

[Aquila King]

1 hour ago, F3SS said:

I’d leave it alone. Diechecker will destroy you with logic. He’s known for it.

[Aquila King]

Lol, no seriously though. I'll respond in due time.

Now's the time for me to relax... Can't debate people all the time now.

[F3SS]

Whatever that means. At your own peril though... Carry on.

[+OverSword]

Here is what you need to know about socialized medicine

 

[aztek]

Just now, Hankenhunter said:

Nope, unaware and content like sheep to the slaughter. Where did the rich get their riches? From gouging the poor and middle class. Without us, they wouldn't be rich. Time for them to give back to society not just take.

Hank

this is Bolsheviks mindset, it never succeed anywhere in the world.  it only brought terror. 

[+OverSword]

On 3/31/2018 at 1:31 PM, Hankenhunter said:

Nope, unaware and content like sheep to the slaughter. Where did the rich get their riches? From gouging the poor and middle class. Without us, they wouldn't be rich. Time for them to give back to society not just take.

Hank

That's about the stupidest thing I've read.  Please tell me how the super rich have gouged you?  What don't you have that you earned and deserve? 

[+OverSword]

On 3/31/2018 at 2:34 PM, Hankenhunter said:

Canada says hello. No nightmares, and no million page forms. Easy peasy health care for all. All taken care of when you're born. You've been fed a steaming load for so long that you think it tastes good.

Hank

Really?

 

[Dark_Grey]

3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Really?

 

"YEAH IT'S FREE HEALTH CARE BRO YOU JUST SHOW UP AND GET TREATED"

There is some truth to that. The vast majority of the time, you don't have to pay for treatment. What the Socialist wannabes don't seem to grasp is the obscene length of time you have to sit in a waiting room to get treated. Or the sometimes sub-par quality of the medical care. Or the 60% tax rate. 3 out of my 5 work days each work go right to the Government to pay for Federal programs. Looking forward to the economy tanking when the giant wave of baby boomers collectively strain the health care system beyond capacity. No wonder so many Canadian Doctors jump ship for America.

[I'mConvinced]

*Shrug* I'm happy to receive state funded healthcare myself and happy for everyone else to get the same. 

I think our healthcare system here in the UK is fantastic and, whilst nothing is perfect, it feels good to know that when the time comes the care you'll receive isn't directly related to the size of your wallet. 

I know a number of people living in the US that couldn't afford healthcare insurance and refused to go and get serious things checked out for fear of the bill. Just seems crazy to me but many people in this thread disagree so shows what I know. 

 

[+OverSword]

32 minutes ago, I'mConvinced said:

*Shrug* I'm happy to receive state funded healthcare myself and happy for everyone else to get the same. 

I think our healthcare system here in the UK is fantastic and, whilst nothing is perfect, it feels good to know that when the time comes the care you'll receive isn't directly related to the size of your wallet. 

I know a number of people living in the US that couldn't afford healthcare insurance and refused to go and get serious things checked out for fear of the bill. Just seems crazy to me but many people in this thread disagree so shows what I know. 

 

How do you know these poor people that don't have insurance?  That's hilarious, I live here and I don't know anyone.  As a matter of fact even the girl that works part time behind the counter of my favorite pizza place is covered, I know this because I was talking to her about it Saturday when I went in to buy a slice and told her I work for the agency which get's the insurance for her employer.  Sorry for calling you a liar but you're lying.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by OverSword

[+OverSword]

You know what?  Here is the truth about healthcare in America even pre-Obama.  If you had know insurance, or for that matter no money or home, and you go to the hospital you got treated.  If you show us at the nicest hospital in the city they may pack you into an ambulance and take you to a more charity oriented hospital, but you got treatment.  It's illegal for them not to see that you are treated.

Like Michelle's uncle who unfortunately waited until it was too late (but that was on him) he got treated.

Edited April 2, 2018 by OverSword

[aztek]

hospitals do not turn anyone away,  there are special hospital programs for students, basically free, you pay 15-20 bucks each visit, tests, and for meds, in hospital pharmacy, not every hospital participates, but i have no doubt at least 1 in almost every town\city does.

as for single payer, we see how VA turned out, no reason to think  free healthcare will be any different,  prbly worst, budget is bigger, so corruption theft  will be bigger than with VA.

i wonder who that majority in the poll is, freeloaders that like idea of not having to pay owe for meds\doctors, or people who actually pay for free loaders, i have 0 doubt people that actually pay wont approve this. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by aztek

[I'mConvinced]

22 minutes ago, OverSword said:

How do you know these poor people that don't have insurance?  That's hilarious,

I played US servers for a whole host of MMO's back in the day and forged some strong friendships from people all over the US that I'm still in touch with today.

I have a close friend and work colleague who married a girl from NYC and moved over to live in Manhattan about 15 years ago. Heck I even have strong ties to America through the Irish half of my family.

It's anecdotal but these are real people and they had real issues affording healthcare. Maybe you can't see it from your internal perspective? You clearly have no idea what poverty really is.

30 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Sorry for calling you a liar but you're lying.

Please don't be condescending, you're not sorry. Believe what you like, it furthers no aspirations of mine what happens to healthcare in your country. I just feel bad for people that can't afford something we get as a basic right.

[I'mConvinced]

22 minutes ago, aztek said:

hospitals do not turn anyone away,  there are special hospital programs for students, basically free, you pay 15-20 bucks each visit, tests, and for meds, in hospital pharmacy, not every hospital participates, but i have no doubt at least 1 in almost every town\city does.

If there isn't a drawback then why does anyone pay for insurance? If you can get the same level of care, for free, without it then where is the problem?

 

[aztek]

Just now, I'mConvinced said:

If there isn't a drawback then why does anyone pay for insurance? If you can get the same level of care, for free, without it then where is the problem?

 

because people who work, make money, and have property, bank accounts are not eligible.  only poor, students, bums, and illegals can go to hospital for free. well not really free, we pay for it with crazy high insurance rates. but for them it is free.

same way people like that are not eligible for public defense aka free lawyer,  they have to pay for their own,  so what you heard on tv many times "if you can't afford a lawyer, one will be provided for free" is not nearly as simple or straightforward as it sounds.

Edited April 2, 2018 by aztek

[I'mConvinced]

5 minutes ago, aztek said:

because people who work, make money, and have property, bank accounts are not eligible.  only poor, students, bums, and illegals can go to hospital for free

So where is the problem? 

[aztek]

Just now, I'mConvinced said:

So where is the problem? 

where isn't ?

for starters i do not want to pay 10k+ a year insurance because i have to pay for someone else who is here illegally, and poping kids to have even more people i have to pay for, they pop about 1\4 of a million kids every year, paid by me, each birth cost 15-30k,  that is about 5b a year we have to cover for,  people who pay for insurance. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by aztek

[I'mConvinced]

19 minutes ago, aztek said:

where isn't ?

for starters i do not want to pay 10k+ a year insurance because i have to pay for someone else who is here illegally, and poping kids to have even more people i have to pay for, they pop about 1\4 of a million kids every year, paid by me, each birth cost 15-30k,  that is about 5b a year we have to cover for,  people who pay for insurance. 

Ok nevermind, you could actually pay less than now and receive better care for everyone but not with that view of things sorry.

[aztek]

Just now, I'mConvinced said:

Ok nevermind, you could actually pay less than now and receive better care for everyone but not with that view of things sorry.

and you have a better view?? lmao from where?  please tell us how all that can be done? go ahead., 

Edited April 2, 2018 by aztek