IDF Directive to defend border with Gaza

[+and-then]

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/243843?utm_source=activetrail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl

Apparently, Hamas is funding protests against Israel's border by massing crowds of Palestinians and threatening incursion, en masse.  15 dead, so far.  Israel's UN ambassador has addressed the issue and asked for help in saving lives.  It's going to be interesting to see just how bloody Hamas is willing to make this.  In the past couple of months, several IDF soldiers have been seriously wounded by bombs placed near the border fences during such protests.  

[Likely Guy]

Needs UN peacekeepers.

[Unusual Tournament]

I wonder if the U.S. decision to relocate it’s embassy to Jerusalem has anything to do with the recent upsurge in Palestinian violence? 

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

I wonder if the U.S. decision to relocate it’s embassy to Jerusalem has anything to do with the recent upsurge in Palestinian violence? 

Possibly.  It makes for a handy excuse, anyway.

[+DieChecker]

I wonder if it was Israelis massing on the border and attempting to move into Gaza and claim buildings, if the response by the international community would be the same condemnation, when the Palestinians attacked the "peaceful" Israelis.

Or is Gaza always going to be the victims and Israel is always going to be the bad guy?

Edited March 31, 2018 by DieChecker

[RoofGardener]

And - of course - the fact that these riots occur during the Jewish religious period of Passover is pure coincidence, and NOT religious hatred ? 

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

And - of course - the fact that these riots occur during the Jewish religious period of Passover is pure coincidence, and NOT religious hatred ? 

Hatred is a given on both sides but I think Hamas wants maximum bloodshed for the cameras.  It only favors their goals if you have most leaves canceled and many extra troops/cops mobilized for the Passover.  

I'm glad they ratcheted down the numbers over the weekend but I think this is going to go on for the whole 6 weeks until 5/14.  This is a well-thought-out plan.  Already we have calls for independent investigations and people talking about war crimes charges.  If the Palestinians bring a human wave against that border fence on May 15, this could be really ugly.  I've seen references to many innovative, non-lethal crowd dispersal methods.  Now might be the time to test them.

[RoofGardener]

I've just noticed that the official HAMAS title of this "protest" is.. "The March to Return". It is both a provocative - and aggressive - slogan. It doesn't imply a peaceful protest.. it  implies an objective of entering - and occupying - Israel ? (which is - of course- one of HAMAS's objectives). I'm surprised that none of the mainstream media seems to have picked up on this.

In that light, what option does Israel have other than to prevent the 'protesters' from doing this ? 

Israel is already being criticised for shooting these attackers when they approach the border fence. But nobody is forcing a "protester" to approach the fence, and they have ALL been warned of the consequences. 

 

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I've just noticed that the official HAMAS title of this "protest" is.. "The March to Return". It is both a provocative - and aggressive - slogan. It doesn't imply a peaceful protest.. it  implies an objective of entering - and occupying - Israel ? (which is - of course- one of HAMAS's objectives). I'm surprised that none of the mainstream media seems to have picked up on this.

In that light, what option does Israel have other than to prevent the 'protesters' from doing this ? 

Israel is already being criticised for shooting these attackers when they approach the border fence. But nobody is forcing a "protester" to approach the fence, and they have ALL been warned of the consequences. 

 

I think we may see the IDF begin massing tanks and troops on the border for an incursion into Gaza.  They cannot afford to allow themselves to be seen shooting masses of rock throwers or waves of women and children that are marching toward their borders.  If thousands of civilians are THERE, there will be fewer to be hit while annihilating Hamas troops and infrastructure.  This may boomerang on Hamas in a bad way.

[Mr.United_Nations]

They won't use tanks, they don' want to been as a "aggressor" but will use missiles or airstrikes as a "defender" 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

March of oppressed and occupied people is their way of saying ''help us''. Stones and burned tires are not ''life threatening situations'' but lack of clean water is. Lack of most basic needs that people need to sustain decent level of living, those are things which need to be in focus, not wild claims about the need to shot sniper rounds on people who throw rocks or approach the fence and place a bomb on it, in worst case. Is Israeli fence, made of steel (or whatever) more important than human life?

Most important point to make here is that those are not Israel borders, at least not as seen by relevant UN resolutions and from the other legal aspects, especially what can be derived from what the term occupation means in international law terminology.

Hamas can't be used to excuse everything and in this case, from what i read there are thirty thousand people protesting at some points, if not more. What does the word ''funding'' imply here? That Hamas is paying people to show at protest?

Medical workers, bandages, food and water and all that's been provided to those who are protesting, most certainly that Hamas is ''funding'' that, but those are not ''tools for terrorism'' which Hamas funds but most basic needs. That returns us to the claims of there being a need to defend borders. Defending from people with stones, people who burn tires and from those occasional improvised (firecrackers) explosive devices which target infrastructure (border fence, to be more precise). What absurdity is that...

On 3/31/2018 at 2:51 AM, and then said:

Israel's UN ambassador has addressed the issue and asked for help in saving lives.

So basically we should believe that it's Israel who cries and fights legally to help Palestinians (fact that it's IDF who is committing atrocitties is neglected) and that Hamas is aggressor party here?

On 3/31/2018 at 2:51 AM, and then said:

In the past couple of months, several IDF soldiers have been seriously wounded by bombs placed near the border fences during such protests.  

I haven't gone through reports about injuries but there were 'bombs' and some were placed few days ago too (there is video released by Israeli sources). Now, i am not security expert in no way but what sounds more resonable, is it that IDF soldiers stay away from the fence? (Palestinians have no way to hit soldiers if such step is made, they have no snipers)

Or is it better to do what Israel choosed to do, to conduct assault by tanks, drones assault rifles and snipers? (knowing that such conduct will, most certainly, inflict heavy injuries to civilians and spread the wish for reatalliation)

On 4/1/2018 at 8:57 AM, RoofGardener said:

And - of course - the fact that these riots occur during the Jewish religious period of Passover is pure coincidence, and NOT religious hatred ? 

The fact that it happens on the day of Passover has nothing to do with religious hatred but has everything to do with the fact that 50 years ago it was Israel who attacked, killed and expelled Palestinians and what is worse, that was done on the day of passover.

Now, one has to ask, if Israel had such low respect to their own religion and committed attacks on the day of Passover that in no way could it be used to defame Palestinians over allegations of these protests not being coincidence. Palestinians were commemorating events from 30 March 1976 too, that was central point of gatherings. I hope it is clear why such allegations are incorrect and very hypocritical.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 3/31/2018 at 10:33 AM, DieChecker said:

I wonder if it was Israelis massing on the border and attempting to move into Gaza and claim buildings, if the response by the international community would be the same condemnation

Well, actually, Israel has taken (so far) about 500 meters of what is seen as Gazan land by extending the so called 'borders'. But large difference, those were settlers backed up by one of best armies in the world who took those 500 meters of essentially important asset of Gazan people, fertile land.

International community was inert, as much as it is now. Politicians are doing lip services, nothing changes for Palestinians. What has changed for illegal settlements? What has ever changed to better for Palestine as a result of international community? International opinion doesn't make any difference whatsoever, do i need to mention infamous Mr. Veto 'who' was large stepping stone for many radical reforms of radically wrong system and radically dishonest applicaiton of international law.

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

but what sounds more resonable, is it that IDF soldiers stay away from the fence?

And when a couple of hundred thousand Palestinians decide to climb or tear down the fence and set up tents in Israel you will say that they have every right to stay.  Israelis disagree and will defend THEIR land.  I cannot imagine that they will wait for this ruse to play out in front of the world's television cameras.  They will attack Hamas inside Gaza and will cause great devastation to their infrastructure of tunnels and weapons as well as killing many of those under arms.  If that occurs, those protesters near the fences will be far safer than the ones in the area of bombardment.  Hopefully, Avigdor Lieberman is correct.  The next war with Hamas will be the LAST war for Hamas.  

[RoofGardener]

4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

March of oppressed and occupied people is their way of saying ''help us''........

Well, if that was true, then I would say "fair enough". 

But that is NOT what the march is about, is it ?  Once more, I would ask you to consider the title of the march. "The Great March of The Return". 

This is about occupying - and then dismantling - Israel, not about the protest of living conditions in Gaza or the West Bank. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by RoofGardener

[+and-then]

44 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, if that was true, then I would say "fair enough". 

But that is NOT what the march is about, is it ?  Once more, I would ask you to consider the title of the march. "The Great March of The Return". 

This is about occupying - and then dismantling - Israel, not about the protest of living conditions in Gaza or the West Bank. 

And well he understands this.  The dishonesty about their intentions is worse than their designs, IMO.  Some, like the Hamas, are totally honest about their intentions but the rest understand that the useful idiots have to be soothed until the goal is accomplished with their help.  It will lead inexorably to a conflagration someday and then the world will act appalled that such a thing could happen!

[Sir Smoke aLot]

19 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, if that was true, then I would say "fair enough". 

But that is NOT what the march is about, is it ?  Once more, I would ask you to consider the title of the march. "The Great March of The Return". 

This is about occupying - and then dismantling - Israel, not about the protest of living conditions in Gaza or the West Bank. 

Of course that it's true. Since Trump decision Palestinians die every day at increasing magnitude.

My point is that we can't blame Palestinians for disrespecting important days in Judaism if Israel didn't respect those days too. Same goes for murders during Ramadan etc. We should not dwelve into such discussion because if Judaism and Islam were essential beliefs and were used as moral guidance, this conflict would be resolved long ago. And about dismantling... Imagine if my country wish to 'dimantle' France for example. One's wish doesn't make it reality or threat. France would simply laugh off such narative. Israel makes whole policy over such logical fallsities.

21 hours ago, and then said:

And when a couple of hundred thousand Palestinians decide to climb or tear down the fence and set up tents in Israel you will say that they have every right to stay.

I know that fence is more important than life of Palestinians.

21 hours ago, and then said:

They will attack Hamas inside Gaza and will cause great devastation to their infrastructure of tunnels and weapons as well as killing many of those under arms.

Of course, it's became wild habbit and perversion which IDF does on regular basis now, with major operations taking place every couple of years.

Lieberman is madman and some of his quotes are sick. As if Israel fights against an army, such is his rethoric.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I know that fence is more important than life of Palestinians.

Close... it's what that fence REPRESENTS that is more important than the lives of some Palestinians who want to remove it.  And you didn't respond to my premise.  Because you know I speak the truth.  You believe exactly the same as the Palestinians.  They believe they have every right to that land and if the fences weren't guarded/protected, they would come across and set up residence and force the Israelis to throw them off.  This is all a game of propaganda by the Hamas, using the lives of Palestinians as its point of interest, just as the Turks did on the MV Mavi Marmara.  Israel may be about to play their OWN kind of game.  It's much more difficult to win when you are forced to play by the other guy's rules.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 hour ago, and then said:

it's what that fence REPRESENTS

Maybe you can reason with that but keep in mind that fence has one meaning to Israelis and completely another for Palestinians. How do we know who is in the wrong? I think that we should not base our opinion over who's perspective is correct one but what should be in focus is that no life should be lost over what we believe and see as sacred to us. It's the same as when terrorists say ''kill infidels''. Because they believe that it's divine right and order to act like they do.

Again, what we believe can't be used as excuse because we have to respect the others.

1 hour ago, and then said:

They believe they have every right to that land and if the fences weren't guarded/protected, they would come across and set up residence and force the Israelis to throw them off. 

Are you aware that you have described, in perfect way, how Israeli settlers, backed by army, operate since late 1800's. Only that back then there were Zionist militants and terrorists, not IDF. Israelis get in Palestinian land, demolish houses, evict people and make settlement for their own people. Then they make a fence. Then, old residents of stolen land are looking over that fence, suffering and having memories of eviction...

And then, then comes a man who blame Palestinians for that which was done to Palestinians in the first place. Can you, honestly, say that Palestinians, unarmed, without an army, can hold their own inside what Israel regards as Israeli land?

1 hour ago, and then said:

This is all a game of propaganda by the Hamas, using the lives of Palestinians as its point of interest

As was the case, according to Israel, while Operation Protective Edge was performed. It's always Hamas.

1 hour ago, and then said:

just as the Turks did on the MV Mavi Marmara

I am sorry but civilians against Israeli commandos? What do you imply here, that Turks violated Israeli borders back then? Are you aware that Turkey was relatively fast to restore relations with Israel and that no action was taken by Turkish diplomats, even tho Turkish people wanted blood, and rightly so by Israeli standards.

1 hour ago, and then said:

Israel may be about to play their OWN kind of game.  It's much more difficult to win when you are forced to play by the other guy's rules.

Israel has never played by other guy's rules. Why did King David Hotel happen if that is true? Israel has long standing bad record of respecting the rules.

But even if that's true, that Israel may start to play it's own game ( tho it's absurd bmo ) i wonder, why are Israeli politicians such bad players? If Hamas did manage to orchestrate this all and make Israel look so damn bad internationally - why did IDF do exactly what Hamas wanted? Hezbollah destroyed myth of ''invincible army'' now Hamas is breaking the myth of ''surveillance superiority'' but that's why your reasoning imply, bmo.

In short, thanks for proving my statement that fence is more important than lives and health of Palestinian civilians, i am glad that we agree on that point, as you said, i quote it again below:

1 hour ago, and then said:

Close... it's what that fence REPRESENTS that is more important than the lives of some Palestinians who want to remove it

 

[RoofGardener]

3 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Of course that it's true. Since Trump decision Palestinians die every day at increasing magnitude.

My point is that we can't blame Palestinians for disrespecting important days in Judaism if Israel didn't respect those days too. Same goes for murders during Ramadan etc. We should not dwelve into such discussion because if Judaism and Islam were essential beliefs and were used as moral guidance, this conflict would be resolved long ago. And about dismantling... Imagine if my country wish to 'dimantle' France for example. One's wish doesn't make it reality or threat. France would simply laugh off such narative. Israel makes whole policy over such logical fallsities.

I know that fence is more important than life of Palestinians.

Of course, it's became wild habbit and perversion which IDF does on regular basis now, with major operations taking place every couple of years.

Lieberman is madman and some of his quotes are sick. As if Israel fights against an army, such is his rethoric.

I disagree with your viewpoint on most of that. For example, can you give me any examples of Israel "disrespecting" Islamic holy days/periods ? 

Can you offer any evidence that Palestinians "die every day at increasing magnitude" since Trumps decision ? And how did they die ? 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I disagree with your viewpoint on most of that. For example, can you give me any examples of Israel "disrespecting" Islamic holy days/periods ? 

Israel has taken legal actions and made laws many times in it's history, laws which directly forbid access to prayer sites during Muslim holy month. Over the years Israel eased those restrictions a bit. Important point here is that Israel's disrespect towards practicing of religion is legalized in Israel.

There is long history of all sorts of actions taken during holy periods but to simply describe those actions as ''religious hatred'' (which you accuse Palestinians of) is not correct approach. In conflicts, especially those which last so long there is enormous material with which to promote ''clash of civilizations'' myth which was spread by Zionists. I do not play that game, it's absurd. Omar, when Muslims took Jerusalem 1400 years ago, he has made laws so beneficial to other religions, especially to Jewish people. So go read about that, and try to promote ''clash of civilizations'' again. That's modern construct and it's false.

18 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Can you offer any evidence that Palestinians "die every day at increasing magnitude" since Trumps decision ? And how did they die ? 

I will pretend that i didn't see this. Since you are involved in topic of Israel and Palestine conflict i always assume that you have read sources other than those baked in Zionist propaganda centers and that you constantly do some research. By asking me this you admit that you haven't even watch the news reports from day when decision was made man

If you watched reports from agencies friendly to Israel (meaning every western mainstream source) you would see that there is constant aggression but i have to admit that i was too harsh to say that there is ''increasing magnitude'', maybe it's not increasing it might simply be constant, like few dead Palestinians daily which should be positive thing?

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 4/3/2018 at 4:20 PM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Most important point to make here is that those are not Israel borders, at least not as seen by relevant UN resolutions and from the other legal aspects, especially what can be derived from what the term occupation means in international law terminology.

To further explain this, point which was disregarded here. Link to Wikipedia, 1949 Armistice Agreement, link. So, what does IDF defend here, even this old Armistice Agreement can be refuted by the fact that promised elections about future of Palestine were never allowed to happen.

 

In it, they pledged to take action within and outside the United Nations to prevent violations of the frontiers or armistice lines. It also outlined their commitment to peace and stability in the area, their opposition to the use or threat of force, and reiterated their opposition to the development of an arms race.

 

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I am sorry but civilians against Israeli commandos?

The world has seen those videos, Smoke.  Those "civilians" were armed and ready to repel boarders.  They severely injured some of those naval commandos and they got what they deserved for trying to break Israeli sovereignty.  

 

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

why did IDF do exactly what Hamas wanted?

Perhaps they gave the civilians credit for not being total MORONS?  They used leaflets and social media to explain the dangers of approaching that border fence.  Then they followed through.  If they are smart, they won't wait for some human wave on 5/14.  They will attack deep inside Gaza and destroy Hamas, once and for all.  They'd be doing the Palestinians there a favor.  Maybe THEN they'd decide to come to a negotiating table and learn to live alongside the Jews in peace.  If they are so hate-filled that they continue to reject the very idea of that, let them continue to suffer.  It seems to be what they want for themselves and their children.  

[Sir Smoke aLot]

5 minutes ago, and then said:

Those "civilians" were armed and ready to repel boarders. 

I do not remember the 'armed' part, except making a stance (which is essential part of what is called dignity). 

6 minutes ago, and then said:

for trying to break Israeli sovereignty.

You mean for trying to break the siege. I am not sure what legitimacy does siege have for i to be regarded as integral part of Israel sovereignty.

8 minutes ago, and then said:

Perhaps they gave the civilians credit for not being total MORONS?  They used leaflets and social media to explain the dangers of approaching that border fence.

There were leaflets in Protective Edge too, but regardless, civilian life loss was too high. Are you aware that Nazi sent leaflets too, aside from propaganda ones, some were directed to civilians as warnings; should we approve their actions which followed after?

On this link we can see, now deleted, IDF statement regarding these protests. LINK 

Which proves that they deliberately, knowingly, did what they wanted at first place, to stop any attack on Israel (peaceful or not) by force, force they knew they direct towards civilians.

There is video showing how IDF snipers shoot and killed man who was running with his back turned to IDF (that, unfortunately, wasn't the only case). I won't share the video because rules do not allow. Was that a warning bullet?

14 minutes ago, and then said:

Maybe THEN they'd decide to come to a negotiating table and learn to live alongside the Jews in peace.  If they are so hate-filled that they continue to reject the very idea of that, let them continue to suffer.  It seems to be what they want for themselves and their children.  

It's always Palestinians fault, regardless of the fact that actions blamed on Palestinians were done by IDF. 

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

There is video showing how IDF snipers shoot and killed man who was running with his back turned to IDF (that, unfortunately, wasn't the only case). I won't share the video because rules do not allow. Was that a warning bullet?

I saw that video and if he was aimed at then that was murder.  The IDF should investigate and hold the soldier accountable.  What other cases of them being shot while running away have you documented?  I have heard of only that one.  

 

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

There were leaflets in Protective Edge too, but regardless, civilian life loss was too high.

That was quite different.  They were warned to leave prior to the beginning of the conflict.  THIS warning was easier... they were warned not to take an action that would specifically endanger their lives.  They chose to ignore the warning.  Some died as a result.  They have promised to march in huge numbers right up to and beyond the border fence on May 15.  Supposedly, it is a protest.  How do you think Israel should react if they start tearing down the fence and coming into Israeli territory?

[RoofGardener]

13 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Israel has taken legal actions and made laws many times in it's history, laws which directly forbid access to prayer sites during Muslim holy month. Over the years Israel eased those restrictions a bit. Important point here is that Israel's disrespect towards practicing of religion is legalized in Israel......

Oh really ? Can you give any examples, or links to corroborative stories ? If your statement is correct, could you explain why Israel  permits a Jordanian religious organisation to manage the Dome on the Rock, and even bans Jews from worshipping there ? I would suggest that the only time Israel "forbids access to prayer sites during Muslim holy month" is if said muslims use the site to plan/equip attacks on Israeli's , or to stir up riots ? 

 

13 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I will pretend that i didn't see this. Since you are involved in topic of Israel and Palestine conflict i always assume that you have read sources other than those baked in Zionist propaganda centers and that you constantly do some research. By asking me this you admit that you haven't even watch the news reports from day when decision was made man

If you watched reports from agencies friendly to Israel (meaning every western mainstream source) you would see that there is constant aggression but i have to admit that i was too harsh to say that there is ''increasing magnitude'', maybe it's not increasing it might simply be constant, like few dead Palestinians daily which should be positive thing?

It was a rhetorical question Sir Smoke a Lot, designed to lure you out  You see, I would suggest that any increase in Palestinian fatalities will be due to an increase in Palestinian attacks on the IDF, rather than any particular action on the part of Israel. The "constant aggression" exists, but it comes from the Palestinians, rather than the Israelis.  

Edited April 5, 2018 by RoofGardener