IDF Directive to defend border with Gaza

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I guess not. Democracy serves regimes, not the people.

Hamas ADMITTED that 53 of the dead were their operatives.  An Den?  An What?

[danydandan]

"The number I am telling you is official. Fifty martyrs from Hamas were martyred in this most recent battle,” he told Baladna, a Gaza-based TV station.

If that's translated correctly, why would the Hamas official describe what is happening as a battle and not a protest.

Also, using the word operatives I think is incorrect, they are members.

[DarkHunter]

39 minutes ago, danydandan said:

"The number I am telling you is official. Fifty martyrs from Hamas were martyred in this most recent battle,” he told Baladna, a Gaza-based TV station.

If that's translated correctly, why would the Hamas official describe what is happening as a battle and not a protest.

Also, using the word operatives I think is incorrect, they are members.

Cause Hamas planned everything that happened as a battle, only western main stream media outlets have been describing it as a protest march.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-tv-confident-hamas-planned-victory-rallies-for-its-leaders-inside-israel/

"Hamas has been heavily involved in planning the clashes and provided instructions to participants on desired behavior"

and

"Protesters were told that tractors would seek to bring down the fence, and were urged to arm themselves with “a knife or a handgun” for use after the border was breached

The directives were reportedly accompanied by detailed maps, and included the Israeli communities to which Palestinians were encouraged to rush."

It seems pretty clear Hamas had all of this planned and executed as a battle and not a civil rights style march.

[danydandan]

7 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

Cause Hamas planned everything that happened as a battle, only western main stream media outlets have been describing it as a protest march.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-tv-confident-hamas-planned-victory-rallies-for-its-leaders-inside-israel/

"Hamas has been heavily involved in planning the clashes and provided instructions to participants on desired behavior"

and

"Protesters were told that tractors would seek to bring down the fence, and were urged to arm themselves with “a knife or a handgun” for use after the border was breached

The directives were reportedly accompanied by detailed maps, and included the Israeli communities to which Palestinians were encouraged to rush."

It seems pretty clear Hamas had all of this planned and executed as a battle and not a civil rights style march.

Certainly seems that way. But forgive me if I take anything from Israeli news feeds with a pinch of salt, they aren't entirely unbiased.

However it's clear that most Countries have seen their actions as disproportionate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-killings-israel-hamas-un-war-crimes-investigate-border-deaths-sniper-a8357981.html

[+and-then]

24 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Certainly seems that way. But forgive me if I take anything from Israeli news feeds with a pinch of salt, they aren't entirely unbiased.

However it's clear that most Countries have seen their actions as disproportionate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-killings-israel-hamas-un-war-crimes-investigate-border-deaths-sniper-a8357981.html

What kind of force would you consider to be "proportionate"?  If, on day one they had rushed the fenceline with hundreds of protesters and been met with say, water cannons, some would have broken down the fence and gotten through to disperse inside Israel.  Remember, many of these are Hamas men.  Their JOB is to kill Jews.  That isn't hyperbole, it's fact.  So the question is, how many dead Jews are an acceptable price to save Palestinian Hamas members?  It's THAT simple.  Had the IDF set up machine gun emplacements and strafed the crowd, THAT would have been excessive and potentially a war crime offense.  The UN can do as it damned pleases and Israel can ignore the whining of those who are frustrated that the Jews in Israel REFUSE to be slaughtered on their own land without fighting back.  

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, and then said:

What kind of force would you consider to be "proportionate"?  If, on day one they had rushed the fenceline with hundreds of protesters and been met with say, water cannons, some would have broken down the fence and gotten through to disperse inside Israel.  Remember, many of these are Hamas men.  Their JOB is to kill Jews.  That isn't hyperbole, it's fact.  So the question is, how many dead Jews are an acceptable price to save Palestinian Hamas members?  It's THAT simple.  Had the IDF set up machine gun emplacements and strafed the crowd, THAT would have been excessive and potentially a war crime offense.  The UN can do as it damned pleases and Israel can ignore the whining of those who are frustrated that the Jews in Israel REFUSE to be slaughtered on their own land without fighting back.  

I actually think their response was proportionate, I know it's an unpopular opinion, but even if there is a even one percent chance that just one person from them people protesting is going to kill someone, Israel have the right to oppose and defend against that one percent. However I deem the killing if innocent people as heinous.

Put it this way if a group of unregistered Mexicans rushed the US boarder would the US not have the right to defend it's boarders?

[RoofGardener]

Nobody should celebrate the loss of life. However, it is worth noting that HAMAS has admitted that the bulk of the Palestinian Arabs killed at the border fences where actually HAMAS operatives, not "innocent civilians". Bear in mind that anyone joining HAMAS is sworn to the destruction of Israel. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hamas-says-most-protesters-killed-israel-gaza-were-members-n874906

There are other examples of HAMAS's willingness to sacrifice the lives (or at least safety) of its civilians. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/16/hamas-plans-protests-rejects-medical-supplies-israel/

Oh.. and in lighter news... it seems the Israeli ambassador has been kicked out of "Moderate" Turkey ? What I find MOST illuminating is that they are also calling for a meeting of "Islamic" nations. 

Not "Arab" nations, or "nearby" nations, but "Islamic" nations. Suggesting that they regard this as a religious issue, and nothing to do with Palestinian "land rights". Gosh.. whoda thunkit ?  

Edited May 20, 2018 by RoofGardener

[danydandan]

14 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Nobody should celebrate the loss of life. However, it is worth noting that HAMAS has admitted that the bulk of the Palestinian Arabs killed at the border fences where actually HAMAS operatives, not "innocent civilians". Bear in mind that anyone joining HAMAS is sworn to the destruction of Israel. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hamas-says-most-protesters-killed-israel-gaza-were-members-n874906

There are other examples of HAMAS's willingness to sacrifice the lives (or at least safety) of its civilians. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/16/hamas-plans-protests-rejects-medical-supplies-israel/

Oh.. and in lighter news... it seems the Israeli ambassador has been kicked out of "Moderate" Turkey ? What I find MOST illuminating is that they are also calling for a meeting of "Islamic" nations. 

Not "Arab" nations, or "nearby" nations, but "Islamic" nations. Suggesting that they regard this as a religious issue, and nothing to do with Palestinian "land rights". Gosh.. whoda thunkit ?  

That probably because they don't want to be associated with Hamas's leadership.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

22 hours ago, and then said:

Hamas ADMITTED that 53 of the dead were their operatives.  An Den?  An What?

Show me one Palestinian holding a gun from all the available videos and i will believe you. Even if they are Hamas operatives they have the right to peacefully protest.

I very much liked this line from this article at Guardian :

''Israel has accused Gaza’s rulers and protest supporters, Hamas, of using violent riots to camouflage terror.''

Check my earlier topic about situation in Gaza, how it's on the edge for decades now... This escalation was totally expected and no one sane would not try to break free from the prison imposed on them by occupying forces.

So, back to my question, can you provide one footage of Palestinians holding a gun at protests? Some weird 'terrorist' operatives, considering how they approached the protest area unarmed

You basically claim that anyone who gets designated as Hamas operative should be (or is legitimate target to be) killed? Are you aware that Hamas was responsible for social services in Gaza? Doctors, post office workers (if Gaza even has post office at all, i am not sure about that) and so on, they are all legit targets even if they do not have weapons?

But, let's go back to Protective Edge, those were all legit targets by such logic. Hmm. Now i start to understand the behavior of ''most moral army in the world''.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

23 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

As opposed to ? 

I should wrote ''democracy'' to be more clear here but if we go back to the golden age of Ancient Greek philosophers and their beautiful explanation of government types it seems that i did not make big mistake there

[RoofGardener]

2 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Show me one Palestinian holding a gun from all the available videos and i will believe you. Even if they are Hamas operatives they have the right to peacefully protest.....

You don't need to take my word for it Sir Smoke aLot ... HAMAS leaders have confirmed this themselves. 

As for peaceful protest.....well, I'd agree with your proposition. However, we have to ask whether "peaceful protest" was the intention ?  

Is it normal to bring tyres and slings to a 'peaceful protest' ? 

[RoofGardener]

4 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I should wrote ''democracy'' to be more clear here but if we go back to the golden age of Ancient Greek philosophers and their beautiful explanation of government types it seems that i did not make big mistake there

So all democracies exist to perpetuate (or support) the 'regime', not the people ? (your earlier statement). 

The Greek Philosophers lived in societies that accepted slavery and racism as part of "the regime". I'm not sure that 2000 years later we need to be taking their advice THAT closely ?  

Notwithstanding, what form of governance would you prefer ? 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

9 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

So all democracies exist to perpetuate (or support) the 'regime', not the people ? (your earlier statement). 

You totally missed my point.

10 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Notwithstanding, what form of governance would you prefer ? 

That wasn't my point. But for your pleasure

Democracy, as any other government type, if not constantly adopted to people's needs and not constantly reformed tends to became corrupted to the point where you get psychos, criminals and in present time the corporations at the top of the 'food chain', so to say.

In example of Israel and subject of this topic we can see how state border (or better said national border) and protection of it can be used to justify whatever happens. Israeli government in power does not recognize that little strip of land called Gaza nor does it see West Bank as something separate from Israel (especially in the minds of 'right' minded people such as far right etc) so, in all seriousness, how can the IDF justify actions taken against prison fence, which is just that, prison fence not border fence.

I made a remark which should be evaluated through the light of recent events and history of the land since late 1800's to this day. As I've said earlier, Israel was made by terrorist groups and what we witness today is simply the legacy of ''the making of the State of Israel''. Is it truly the only democracy in the region? By MSM standards, it has to be. By Israeli propagandists, hell yeah. But by civilization standards, it's far from that. I would not go into morality of it.

 

 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

28 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Is it normal to bring tyres and slings to a 'peaceful protest' ? 

You must be joking

But i would reply YES. Palestinians should bring mortars, howitzers and heavy machine guns because on the opposing side there are battle tanks, snipers and fully equipped army, equipped with state of the art American weaponry.

What i find funny in your post is that you say how slingshots are threat to IDF soldiers. More personal remark, i always like Civilization, Age of empires and similar games.

In the ancient era, or just at the game start there is always possibility to build one unit type, first one is simple warrior with a club and the 2nd one is slingshot. In the case of protests in Gaza, those using the slingshot are children or teenagers.

Now, can you please go back and say something about snipers killing unarmed Palestinian who was just standing still and also give me your general overlook of the video in which medical workers are attacked by IDF, if you can please?

Then, in all seriousness, say that slingshot is enough of justification for murder. I mean, like really. David and Goliath. I am not sure when in history did the names became synonymous.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 5/19/2018 at 5:31 PM, seanjo said:

pallywood

Oh dear.

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Show me one Palestinian holding a gun from all the available videos and i will believe you. Even if they are Hamas operatives they have the right to peacefully protest.

I very much liked this line from this article at Guardian :

''Israel has accused Gaza’s rulers and protest supporters, Hamas, of using violent riots to camouflage terror.''

Check my earlier topic about situation in Gaza, how it's on the edge for decades now... This escalation was totally expected and no one sane would not try to break free from the prison imposed on them by occupying forces.

So, back to my question, can you provide one footage of Palestinians holding a gun at protests? Some weird 'terrorist' operatives, considering how they approached the protest area unarmed

You basically claim that anyone who gets designated as Hamas operative should be (or is legitimate target to be) killed? Are you aware that Hamas was responsible for social services in Gaza? Doctors, post office workers (if Gaza even has post office at all, i am not sure about that) and so on, they are all legit targets even if they do not have weapons?

But, let's go back to Protective Edge, those were all legit targets by such logic. Hmm. Now i start to understand the behavior of ''most moral army in the world''.

First, I DON'T CARE if you believe me or not.  

https://www.newsmax.com/emerson/gaza-palestinian/2018/05/17/id/860946/

These people could kill every Jew in Israel and people like you would make excuses for them.  People like that are little more than scum, in my estimation.

[RoofGardener]

12 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

You must be joking

But i would reply YES. Palestinians should bring mortars, howitzers and heavy machine guns because on the opposing side there are battle tanks, snipers and fully equipped army, equipped with state of the art American weaponry....

Then it is no longer - as you stated earlier - intended as a peaceful protest. You can't have it both ways  

[RoofGardener]

12 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

What i find funny in your post is that you say how slingshots are threat to IDF soldiers. More personal remark, i always like Civilization, Age of empires and similar games.

I LOVED Civilisation. Well, CivI and CivII, anyway. I thought CivIII lost its way somewhat. (was there ever a CivIV ? )

As for slingshots, I seem to recall that in Civ2 or Civ3, it WAS possible for a basic pikeman to defeat a WW2-style battleship ? (low probability, but possible). 

Edited May 21, 2018 by RoofGardener

[RoofGardener]

12 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

You totally missed my point.

That wasn't my point. But for your pleasure

Democracy, as any other government type, if not constantly adopted to people's needs and not constantly reformed tends to became corrupted to the point where you get psychos, criminals and in present time the corporations at the top of the 'food chain', so to say....

An interesting point.. didn't an American president say something along the lines of "I care not who controls the government, just give me control of the money supply", or something like that ? 

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

An interesting point.. didn't an American president say something along the lines of "I care not who controls the government, just give me control of the money supply", or something like that ? 

The sole purpose of any Government is to ensure the sovereignty of it's Country. All else is secondary. This usually means monatary sovereignty, unless your in the EU.

[RoofGardener]

Just now, danydandan said:

The sole purpose of any Government is to ensure the sovereignty of it's Country. All else is secondary. This usually means monatary sovereignty, unless your in the EU.

If I recall correctly, the President who made the comment was suggesting that control of the money supply (e.g. what we now call the Federal Reserve) would be ultimately able to corrupt and control the democratic government, which ties in with Sir Smoke aLot's comment about corporations corrupting democracy ? 

Hence although a government may be sovereign, in the sense that it directly controls the levers of executive power, it - in turn - is having its strings pulled by the fiscal puppetmasters ? 

[RoofGardener]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:26 PM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Anyhow, sniper shots in the head of unarmed civilian and cheering about it... Attacking medical workers :

 

But of course Twitter, as Youtube, blocks content as part of new silence campaign. Who the hell can support those who do this as seen in video above? 

Where was this video taken, and when ? It obviously wasn't part of the current attempt to breach the Israeli border fences, UNLESS those people had indeed breached the fence ? (and I don't recall any media reports saying that this had ever happened). 

Without any context, this video is meaningless ? 

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

If I recall correctly, the President who made the comment was suggesting that control of the money supply (e.g. what we now call the Federal Reserve) would be ultimately able to corrupt and control the democratic government, which ties in with Sir Smoke aLot's comment about corporations corrupting democracy ? 

Hence although a government may be sovereign, in the sense that it directly controls the levers of executive power, it - in turn - is having its strings pulled by the fiscal puppetmasters ? 

Maybe that's true in America with companies directly backing presidency candidates. I think, for better or worse, here in Ireland the EU has really done away with that sort of thing. I would think soon enough we will loose our right to declare tax rates. Being Irish it seems we have fought for our sovereignty for eight hundred years only to hand it over to the European Union in the last few decades.

[Phaeton80]

On 20-5-2018 at 9:15 PM, RoofGardener said:

You don't need to take my word for it Sir Smoke aLot ... HAMAS leaders have confirmed this themselves. 

As for peaceful protest.....well, I'd agree with your proposition. However, we have to ask whether "peaceful protest" was the intention ?  

Is it normal to bring tyres and slings to a 'peaceful protest' ? 

Oh lord.. When snipers are actively shooting to kill, Id say yes; trying to throw up a smokescreen to prevent that would be 'called for'.

But alas, for some the mass killing of protestors on the other side of the fence / wall isnt an issue at all.. No no; its the tire burning and stone throwing thats dispickable, those are the real crimes against humanity. Those civilians who have been confined, surpressed and oppressed are the agressors, not the state of the art military that has been surpressing and oppressing.

Sweet tapdancing bibi. Hopeless stuff, you people crack me up.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Phaeton80

[RoofGardener]

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Oh lord.. When snipers are actively shooting to kill, Id say yes; trying to throw up a smokescreen to prevent that would be 'called for'.

But alas, for some the mass killing of protestors on the other side of the fence / wall isnt an issue at all.. No no; its the tire burning and stone throwing thats dispickable, those are the real crimes against humanity. Those civilians who have been confined, surpressed and oppressed are the agressors, not the state of the art military that has been surpressing and oppressing.

Sweet tapdancing bibi. Hopeless stuff, you people crack me up.

Oh come ON Phaeton80... the snipers where only shooting BECAUSE the HAMAS operatives where trying to approach the fence behind smokescreens, and/or throwing petrol bombs or using slingshots. 

As for "the civilians"; HAMAS has already stated that around 85% of them where HAMAS soldiers. 

Cart. Horse  

Edited May 22, 2018 by RoofGardener