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Summerin1905

What is between Heaven and hell?

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Summerin1905

pretty much the tile what is between heaven and hell? What is the description between? From what I heard is its purgatory, but is it just me or is there not enough description about it? I just wanted to kinda know sorta since its always interest me in terms of the biblical text. 

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Likely Guy
Posted (edited)

Non-Biblically, the only thing between heaven and hell is that it's paved with good intentions.

Edited by Likely Guy
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Hammerclaw

Schenectady?  

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Orphalesion

Well, here we might first clarify, that neither the modern conception of heaven, hell nor something in-between is anywhere in the Bible. As far as you will be able to tell from the Bible, and what a large part of official Christian doctrine of multiple denomination says there's actually nothing after death, just the grave, until the Resurrection, when god breathes new life into your body. And only then there is supposedly eternal reward for the "righteous" in the Heavenly Jerusalem, while the "Sinners" get thrown into the Lake of Fire.
All ideas of an immediate heaven or hell after death were are either folklore or have been originated by various Christian thinkers and Church fathers. Or by various poets, such as Dante.
One of the great differences between early Christianity and various Pagan believes in Europe was actually that Christianity advocated that the "soul" needs the body to be alive and can't exist without it as it was for example with the Greeks in Hades.

This line of thinking never completely disappeared, you'll find in on gravestones where people "hope for resurrection" and the popular concept that the death are sleeping, so you have to be quiet in cemeteries.
Plus if you really look at it, the popular concept of immediate heaven/hell makes no sense with the idea of the Last Judgment, if you already have been deemed worthy enough of heaven, there's no need to "review" your "case" at the end of times.

The whole thing is complicated by the fact that the Old Testament can't seem to be able to make up its mind what happens after death.

In some modern conceptions that assume heaven and hell, there's nothing in-between. Catholicism assumes Purgatory, a place of penitence where souls are temporarily punished until they are deemed good enough for heaven. Dante describes it very elaborately as a mountain in the southern hemisphere  where souls have to endure pain and punishment in various ways while helpful spirits teach them to overcome their sins. On top of the Mountain is the Earthly Paradise. Dante also describes Limbo as a place just outside of hell where the unbaptized righteous go after death (including unbaptized babbehs) It's not an specifically unpleasant place and Dante describes the souls living there in an Earth-like setting of wilderness and austere ruins. While they aren't actively punished like in hell or purgatory, the souls there are still unhappy because they now know that they will never see the glory of Heaven/paradise and of God's presence (the beatific vision) 
The Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar belief to Limbo in relation to the end times; after the end of the world the 144.000 best Jehovah's Witnesses (all male) go to live in the Heavenly Jerusalem with god, while the rest of the righteous Christians gets to inherit the New Earth and basically become farmers who work fields and orchards for the 144.000 who got to go to the heavenly Jerusalem. 
Those are the only ones I know about that consider something between Heaven/Paradise and Hell/the Lake of Fire 

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Piney
4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar belief to Limbo in relation to the end times; after the end of the world the 144.000 best Jehovah's Witnesses (all male) go to live in the Heavenly Jerusalem with god, while the rest of the righteous Christians gets to inherit the New Earth and basically become farmers who work fields and orchards for the 144.000 who got to go to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Where is this specific doctrine written? It would be wonderful to know as I debate members of this cult all the time and actually enjoy it.

Good story. In 1925 when they were expecting to be raptured they didn't plant any crops. My great grandpop and Uncle Asa, along with other Quakers brought them food so they didn't starve. 

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XenoFish

If you don't believe. Heaven and Hell are just states of mind.

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Essan

Heaven is solitude.  Hell is other people.   I guess being with just a few family/friends you really like is the state inbetween?  :D 

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Orphalesion
32 minutes ago, Piney said:

Where is this specific doctrine written? It would be wonderful to know as I debate members of this cult all the time and actually enjoy it.

Good story. In 1925 when they were expecting to be raptured they didn't plant any crops. My great grandpop and Uncle Asa, along with other Quakers brought them food so they didn't starve. 

I know it mostly from conversations with an ex-member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, but the Wikipedia article seems to name some bibliography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_salvation#cite_note-17

It all really boils down to some extremely literal interpretation of some things in Revelation. With the exception that they somehow ignore the little detail that the 144.000 in the Bible are supposed to be from the 12 tribes of Israel...

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DieChecker
7 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Well, here we might first clarify, that neither the modern conception of heaven, hell nor something in-between is anywhere in the Bible. As far as you will be able to tell from the Bible, and what a large part of official Christian doctrine of multiple denomination says there's actually nothing after death, just the grave, until the Resurrection, when god breathes new life into your body. And only then there is supposedly eternal reward for the "righteous" in the Heavenly Jerusalem, while the "Sinners" get thrown into the Lake of Fire.

I agree that the modern ideas of Heaven and Hell are not Biblical, but the Bible (and Jesus) speak of Heaven and Hell several times.

I, myself, think that there is a Heaven and Hell that are (basically) waiting places. Then with the Final Judgement, Jesus will weigh each and every person, and those who are Saved go on to the New Heaven and New Earth. And those who are not Saved go (sadly) into the Fire.

Quote

All ideas of an immediate heaven or hell after death were are either folklore or have been originated by various Christian thinkers and Church fathers. Or by various poets, such as Dante.
One of the great differences between early Christianity and various Pagan believes in Europe was actually that Christianity advocated that the "soul" needs the body to be alive and can't exist without it as it was for example with the Greeks in Hades.

This line of thinking never completely disappeared, you'll find in on gravestones where people "hope for resurrection" and the popular concept that the death are sleeping, so you have to be quiet in cemeteries.
Plus if you really look at it, the popular concept of immediate heaven/hell makes no sense with the idea of the Last Judgment, if you already have been deemed worthy enough of heaven, there's no need to "review" your "case" at the end of times.

The whole thing is complicated by the fact that the Old Testament can't seem to be able to make up its mind what happens after death.

There are some scriptures where it does seem that Jesus is implying that He'll be seeing those who pass soon, in Heaven. However he also said that the End was near, so....

Plus there is the part where Jesus died on the cross and descended and saved those in Hades. This is part of the Apostle's Creed, which goes back to the 4th century at least. If Jesus brought spirits/souls out of Hell, then Hell would have to be a real place.

Quote

In some modern conceptions that assume heaven and hell, there's nothing in-between. Catholicism assumes Purgatory, a place of penitence where souls are temporarily punished until they are deemed good enough for heaven. Dante describes it very elaborately as a mountain in the southern hemisphere  where souls have to endure pain and punishment in various ways while helpful spirits teach them to overcome their sins. On top of the Mountain is the Earthly Paradise. Dante also describes Limbo as a place just outside of hell where the unbaptized righteous go after death (including unbaptized babbehs) It's not an specifically unpleasant place and Dante describes the souls living there in an Earth-like setting of wilderness and austere ruins. While they aren't actively punished like in hell or purgatory, the souls there are still unhappy because they now know that they will never see the glory of Heaven/paradise and of God's presence (the beatific vision) 

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar belief to Limbo in relation to the end times; after the end of the world the 144.000 best Jehovah's Witnesses (all male) go to live in the Heavenly Jerusalem with god, while the rest of the righteous Christians gets to inherit the New Earth and basically become farmers who work fields and orchards for the 144.000 who got to go to the heavenly Jerusalem. 
Those are the only ones I know about that consider something between Heaven/Paradise and Hell/the Lake of Fire 

I think Purgatory might be the same as I was saying above about the Waiting Place "Hell", and not the "Fire", which is for eternity.

I tend to agree with those who identify those 144,000 with the Jews, and the uncountable hoard of people in white, are likely the Christians. I've spoken with Jehovah's Witness before and they often have no real reason for what they believe, and only do so because their leader has told them it is so. They will even read the Bible and do mental gymnastics to make what their leader told them to fit into what is written. (Not that that is so different then every other Christian leader.) :rolleyes:

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Opus Magnus

The Greeks have an interesting idea. As Paul says, "The Greeks have wisdom, but the Jews have salvation"

The greeks go more into hell lore. Tartarus or Hell is about the same distance from Hades as the Earth is from the sky. Hades, the underworld is like purgatory. Many dead stay insane in the darkness of Hades, drinking from the river of forgetfullness. But, Charon, the ferryman is there to carry the dead across the river of Styx I think, where there are three judges to find their lives worthy to pass through Elysium, or down to Tartarus.

So, it seems all souls have to pass through the underworld first. Even Jesus did, as he spent three days and nights in the heart of the earth after his cruxifiction. And when King Saul employed a witch to divine the spirit of the dead Samuel, he appeared from underground, not from heaven above. So, if Samuel goes to the underworld, my reasoning, is why wouldn't everyone else? 

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Opus Magnus

The only other way out of the underworld, that I've read is that of Persephone. The stolen wife of Hades. Socrates talks about it briefly in his discussions, that Persephone might grant release from the dead with petitions to her in the underworld. I guess it might be something like wandering through Hades until you find where the Ghost Lillies gather around the abode of Hades himself to see if Persephone would give you light in the underworld.

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freetoroam
On 3/31/2018 at 5:17 AM, Summerin1905 said:

what is between heaven and hell?

Now the question could be asked as "what is on the other side of life....how many sides are there?.( apart from the obvious one - death)

when you believe in a religion or in life after death, then you can speculate all you like.

These could be seen as between heaven and hell

Wandering ghosts

Orbs

Floating spirits

Talking dolls

Etc etc etc

And they are allegedly seen by the living  -  on Earth. 

 

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Alien Origins

What is between heaven and hell? That would be air.

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freetoroam
8 minutes ago, Alien Origins said:

What is between heaven and hell? That would be air.

And the living and the  bodies / ashes of the dead.

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Guyver
On 3/30/2018 at 9:17 PM, Summerin1905 said:

pretty much the tile what is between heaven and hell? What is the description between? From what I heard is its purgatory, but is it just me or is there not enough description about it? I just wanted to kinda know sorta since its always interest me in terms of the biblical text. 

I guess many people would consider this life on Earth that which is between.  

As far as the biblical text....it's such a big conversation because the bible often says different things about the same thing.  Jesus speaks of there being a hell and a "paradise" within sight of each other, that the angels carry a person to in the parable of the rich man and lazarus.  The Apostle Paul speaks of a person dying and immediately finding themselves in the presence of the Lord.  The apostles of Jesus believed in ghosts who roamed the Earth after death as well.

Purgatory is not a concept found in the biblical text, it comes from Catholic theology.  In this view, there is a place of existence between heaven and hell, and there is hope that a person can be delivered from purgatory into heaven, when they pay their penance or learn their lessons.  Kind of a cool idea, IMHO.  

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Mr Guitar

See, nobody knows - it's all conjecture and wishful thinking  based on the wandering thoughts and writings of a bunch of different people/sects/cults and there is not a single iota pf proof that either one exists let alone anything in between. I do agree with whoever said that the soul (essence/conciousness, to me) cannot exist without the body and the electrical function of the brain - once the battery runs down, the machine ceases to operate, and that's, truly, what we are, just machines and we cease to function.

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ChaosRose

It goes on...and on...and on...

Heaven and Hell...

 

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danydandan
On 3/31/2018 at 5:17 AM, Summerin1905 said:

pretty much the tile what is between heaven and hell? What is the description between? From what I heard is its purgatory, but is it just me or is there not enough description about it? I just wanted to kinda know sorta since its always interest me in terms of the biblical text. 

I think you would stuggle to find the word hell in the Bible. Pretty sure it's in the King James Bible however there is a lot of arguments suggesting the translation was incorrect.

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Summerin1905

thanks guys for the reply's! sorry for the late response but thanks guys for putting your thoughts into this topic its nice to have some other perspectives!

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I'mConvinced

What's in-between heaven and hell? Sex, drugs and rock n roll...if you're doing it right.

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The Narcisse

Neverland?

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third_eye

everything between my bed and the toilet ...

~

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Podo

They're idealized afterlives designed to keep peasants under control and complacent. Reward people with a good afterlife for submitting and being docile, and you'll get a lot of uneducated, docile workers. Eternal damnation was a powerful motivator, and continues to be as such in the modern day, albeit much less so. It all comes down to control.

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