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Athena1979

Serpent-a drug dealer, God-a parent

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Athena1979
Posted (edited)

A tree that bears fruit and instead of giving sustenance, it gives knowledge. Can you eat something and gain knowledge, power, youth, strength? Over time, from eating certain foods, you can develop your body to gain these things. But, when you eat a fruit, it makes an empty stomach full. It can give energy, but not insight and wisdom.

Certain herbal medicines can calm you or give you energy.  Was the tree of life a drug, perhaps? It would have needed to be something that made Adam and Eve instantly aware of themselves.

I am talking about something immediate. It would have been an immediate sense of awareness.

Now, if it was some type of enhancer of fruit, then it really is just making the user aware of knowledge that was already within us. Meaning, that the fruit did not give us an immediate intake of knowledge and wisdom, but allowed us to access parts of our internal knowledge. The internal knowledge would likely not have been fully comprehended as intended. Which is why God would not want us to have this awareness, until we could understand the implications of it.

The snake would be like a drug dealer. God is the parent. And God grounded his kids for, basically, doing drugs.

God does not want us to do drugs to attain knowledge. He wants us to gain knowledge through our own mindfulness and awareness and not because a drug was able to enhance our ability to attain it. We shouldn’t need to enhance our abilities through chemical stimulants.

Why doesn’t God want us to use tools or stimulants to enhance our abilities? Is it because there are some messages, some information that can be interpreted incorrectly? There must be a good analogy for this. An analogy that speaks to using an enhancer to gain something that proves to be bad, even in moderation.  Sometimes knowledge is not power. Sometimes knowledge can cause more problems until you are ready to understand them in the right perspective. Sometimes making a decision without all the information is a benefit. When you start to bring in too many variables, the ‘right’ decision is harder to make.

Having perfect memory may be overrated per article “Why Your Bad Memory Isn't Such a Bad Thing, According to Science” http://www.health.com/mind-body/forgetting-makes-us-smarter.  Having perfect recall of every single thing that ever happened would be incredibly overwhelming. We aren’t meant to instantly know and remember everything. Too much could cause stress, anxiety, depression, or any other mental ailments. Having the right amount of information will give you confidence and pride. Moderation seems to always be the answer. Too much is damaging, too little is damaging. God wanted us to have just enough information, just enough knowledge to be powerful, but not too powerful and just enough ignorance to be weak, but not too weak.

According to an article “News is bad for you – and giving up reading it will make you happier” https://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/apr/12/news-is-bad-rolf-dobelli. The author Rolf Dobelli sites that having lots of information can mislead you, can be irrelevant, take away from the big picture of the world, increase cognitive errors, inhibits thinking, wastes time, passivity, kills creativity, to name a few. Attaining information isn’t the same us awareness, but the idea of having knowledge available is not necessarily making us able to make better decisions. Is the point of more knowledge meant to help us be better or to make better decisions?

Is it the quantity of knowledge or the quality of knowledge? Perhaps, God gives us the quality of knowledge, but Satan gives the quantity of knowledge- just enough to be dangerous.

A few examples of gods  that gave 'gifts' to man or were tricksters:

Pandora’s Box, Zeus, Epimetheus and Pandora

Prometheus stealing fire for man

The serpent and the gift of knowledge

Apple of Discord – Eris and the city of Troy

Wisakedjak

Anansi

Kumiho

I understand the metaphor of obeying God...but the literal sense of eating something and instantly becoming aware is something that is missed every time this story in Genesis is told.

 

Edited by Athena1979

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XenoFish

The only 'tree' that I know of that gives knowledge is books. 

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jmccr8

Hi Athena

Well to start out with, the bible is not a word for word truth. If it was the god knew that the apple would be eaten after all god did set the stage, supplied the props and created all the actors. Does anyone miss the instant change, I think not for some reason Adam and Eve saw they were naked and his themselves. Now for me that seems odd, like what's wrong with being naked if there are only two people around and they are mates?:huh:

jmccr8

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Athena1979

I agree...I feel that the bible is man's interpretation of God. And that would be guided by man's perspective and prejudices. 

But honestly, I got to thinking at church yesterday,  what kind of tree can give you an instant awareness or knowledge, simply from ingestion. So, take away the bible being real, made up or interpreted incorrectly or is just a symbol.

There are a few religions that ingesting a hallucagen is supposed to bring you closer to God. One second you're siting there, completely ok with the world, the next moment, you eat a fruit and suddenly the world changes.  Just like that and is so good, you want to share it with your best buddy. 

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Rlyeh

Does that make God a drug dealer too for telling his children they can eat from the Tree of Life?

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Piney
8 hours ago, Athena1979 said:

There are a few religions that ingesting a hallucagen is supposed to bring you closer to God. One second you're siting there, completely ok with the world, the next moment, you eat a fruit and suddenly the world changes.  Just like that and is so good, you want to share it with your best buddy. 

That never has a good ending. Older members of the Native American Church who take that peyote trash are pretty much drooling idiots. In my opinion narcotics can never bring you closer to Creation. Just fry your brain. 

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Opus Magnus
Posted (edited)

Yeah, this idea has been going around for a while. Also, I don't think any type of mushrooms are ever mentioned in the Bible.

God, never let them have the tree of life, they were kicked out of Eden because the angels were worried what would happen if they ate from both trees and became like them.

More than one mythology has the gods dependent on a certain apple tree in order to stay immortal. God also has a tendency to erupt in flaming anger if you light up the wrong or strange incense, like what happened to Aaron's sons during the Exodus from which they died.

 

However all the herbs are supposedly known by God, as he created them individually and planted them.

Edited by Opus Magnus

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eight bits

Jim

Quote

I think not for some reason Adam and Eve saw they were naked and his themselves. Now for me that seems odd, like what's wrong with being naked if there are only two people around and they are mates?:huh:

Naked alone together can be big fun. The story problem, however, is the biggest meanest SOB in the valley has announced that he's gonna kill them if they ever swipe his fruit, and they just swiped his fruit.

Naked is no fun anymore. I imagine Adam looks like he's been swimming in ice water. Time for the cast iron jockstraps - oh well, leaves will have to do. The Woman never does cover her breasts - no matter, God goes right for the tunnel of love when he hands out her punishment.

What it says on the page is that they were afraid. Earlier in the story is where it talked about body shame. It said they weren't ashamed. As you point out, nothing happens in the story to change that, and by the next story, they've had kids. In the Jewish Bible, if not always in the Christian one, that means they've spent some quality time together.

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@jmccr8

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ChaosRose

Was the tree of life a drug, perhaps? It would have needed to be something that made Adam and Eve instantly aware of themselves.

It's a story that was never meant to be taken literally, so no. 

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Jim

Naked alone together can be big fun. The story problem, however, is the biggest meanest SOB in the valley has announced that he's gonna kill them if they ever swipe his fruit, and they just swiped his fruit.

Naked is no fun anymore. I imagine Adam looks like he's been swimming in ice water. Time for the cast iron jockstraps - oh well, leaves will have to do. The Woman never does cover her breasts - no matter, God goes right for the tunnel of love when he hands out her punishment.

What it says on the page is that they were afraid. Earlier in the story is where it talked about body shame. It said they weren't ashamed. As you point out, nothing happens in the story to change that, and by the next story, they've had kids. In the Jewish Bible, if not always in the Christian one, that means they've spent some quality time together.

-

@jmccr8

Hi Eightbits

You can call me Jay :D the whole story always seemed a bit off to me anyway. And they were making like bunnies for the better part of a thousand years afterward.:lol: I still think it was part of the plan and that it was an inside job just to make people feel guilty about something especially if god knew that it would happen.What about Lilith she wasn't there and didn't eat the fruit unless she was the reason that the fallen angels desired women, then she was the forbidden fruit too and god would have known that she would be the needed temptation to satisfy that part of the story.

jmccr8

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eight bits
2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

You can call me Jay :D 

Sorry about that :) .

I really like it as a short story. It does have some weirdness (as when Adam interviews all the other animals looking for a mate ... I like animals, too, but ... um, OK, family forum), but it also works on many levels.

The OP offers the latest in a very long line of interpretations, and just that one post is about as long as the story it's interpreting. That's a good sign, I think. The story is dense, the way dreams are dense, and I like dreams.

I also think that the story is wasted on religious folk, but there's only so far down that road I can go over here on the sheltered workshop board.

I'm not a fan of Lilith :) or the midrash that features her. If you're into that sort of thing, Mark Twain's classic pair of stories, "Extracts from Adam's Diary" and "Eve's Diary," will likely be pleasing. They're in the public domain, so freely available from many places on the web.

 

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Sorry about that :) .

I really like it as a short story. It does have some weirdness (as when Adam interviews all the other animals looking for a mate ... I like animals, too, but ... um, OK, family forum), but it also works on many levels.

The OP offers the latest in a very long line of interpretations, and just that one post is about as long as the story it's interpreting. That's a good sign, I think. The story is dense, the way dreams are dense, and I like dreams.

I also think that the story is wasted on religious folk, but there's only so far down that road I can go over here on the sheltered workshop board.

I'm not a fan of Lilith :) or the midrash that features her. If you're into that sort of thing, Mark Twain's classic pair of stories, "Extracts from Adam's Diary" and "Eve's Diary," will likely be pleasing. They're in the public domain, so freely available from many places on the web.

 

Thanks Eightbits

I'm not religious and only brought up Lilith in a passing way as I see it as a story as well, although just for kicks I will likely read the Twain stories.:tu:

jmccr8

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Opus Magnus
6 hours ago, eight bits said:

Jim

Naked alone together can be big fun. The story problem, however, is the biggest meanest SOB in the valley has announced that he's gonna kill them if they ever swipe his fruit, and they just swiped his fruit.

Naked is no fun anymore. I imagine Adam looks like he's been swimming in ice water. Time for the cast iron jockstraps - oh well, leaves will have to do. The Woman never does cover her breasts - no matter, God goes right for the tunnel of love when he hands out her punishment.

What it says on the page is that they were afraid. Earlier in the story is where it talked about body shame. It said they weren't ashamed. As you point out, nothing happens in the story to change that, and by the next story, they've had kids. In the Jewish Bible, if not always in the Christian one, that means they've spent some quality time together.

-

@jmccr8

Not so sure God said he would kill them for taking the fruit, but he said they would die if they did so.

It obviously opened their senses to know they were naked, and they probably couldn't live in peace with the animals anymore. The serpent told them they wouldn't die for it, probably because it knew you could argue they didn't actually die, they just changed as the gods, but without the fruit of life. But their old life died when they aquired the knowledge of good and evil.

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eight bits
46 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

Not so sure God said he would kill them for taking the fruit, but he said they would die if they did so.

Interesting point about the way the storyteller arranged that: God tells about half the truth (From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die) and the Serpent (or the Woman's projection onto the Serpent) tells most of the rest (You certainly will not die! God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good and evil.), but still holds a lot back.

The full truth turns out to be more complicated, as it so often does. There is a trial. Tactically, God has the defendants by the throats and they have him by the short curlies. He can kill them, but if he kills them, then his  divine plan is shot to hell. Six days' hard work for nothin'.

There's a deal to be made here. But they blow it. Adam throws the only friend he's ever had, the Woman, under the bus. Had they stood together - it'd be a different book, that's for sure.

So God drives up the middle that Adam has opened up, and arranges for them to kill themselves and each other, slowly. The resource they need, the Tree of Life, doesn't go anywhere. God just posts a rent-a-cop to keep them away from it. God's tactical situation hasn't changed; if that guardian uses his weapon, then God's plan is shot to hell.

The peoples' tactical situation has changed. They will die unless they get past the guard, and live forever if they do. What's the guard going to do to them? Worst case: kill them. Do the math. Heads, you're no worse off than you are already; tails, you win big.

Jeez, call his bluff!

Hell of a story. We're descended from morons :) .

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, eight bits said:

Interesting point about the way the storyteller arranged that: God tells about half the truth (From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die) and the Serpent (or the Woman's projection onto the Serpent) tells most of the rest (You certainly will not die! God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good and evil.), but still holds a lot back.

The full truth turns out to be more complicated, as it so often does. There is a trial. Tactically, God has the defendants by the throats and they have him by the short curlies. He can kill them, but if he kills them, then his  divine plan is shot to hell. Six days' hard work for nothin'.

There's a deal to be made here. But they blow it. Adam throws the only friend he's ever had, the Woman, under the bus. Had they stood together - it'd be a different book, that's for sure.

So God drives up the middle that Adam has opened up, and arranges for them to kill themselves and each other, slowly. The resource they need, the Tree of Life, doesn't go anywhere. God just posts a rent-a-cop to keep them away from it. God's tactical situation hasn't changed; if that guardian uses his weapon, then God's plan is shot to hell.

The peoples' tactical situation has changed. They will die unless they get past the guard, and live forever if they do. What's the guard going to do to them? Worst case: kill them. Do the math. Heads, you're no worse off than you are already; tails, you win big.

Jeez, call his bluff!

Hell of a story. We're descended from morons :) .

Ha ha ha ha ha interesting, love "Adam throws the only friend he ever had, Woman, under the bus."

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Sherapy
10 hours ago, eight bits said:

Jim

Naked alone together can be big fun. The story problem, however, is the biggest meanest SOB in the valley has announced that he's gonna kill them if they ever swipe his fruit, and they just swiped his fruit.

Naked is no fun anymore. I imagine Adam looks like he's been swimming in ice water. Time for the cast iron jockstraps - oh well, leaves will have to do. The Woman never does cover her breasts - no matter, God goes right for the tunnel of love when he hands out her punishment.

What it says on the page is that they were afraid. Earlier in the story is where it talked about body shame. It said they weren't ashamed. As you point out, nothing happens in the story to change that, and by the next story, they've had kids. In the Jewish Bible, if not always in the Christian one, that means they've spent some quality time together.

-

@jmccr8

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha......

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Piney
3 hours ago, eight bits said:

Interesting point about the way the storyteller arranged that: God tells about half the truth (From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die) and the Serpent (or the Woman's projection onto the Serpent) tells most of the rest (You certainly will not die! God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know good and evil.), but still holds a lot back.

The full truth turns out to be more complicated, as it so often does. There is a trial. Tactically, God has the defendants by the throats and they have him by the short curlies. He can kill them, but if he kills them, then his  divine plan is shot to hell. Six days' hard work for nothin'.

There's a deal to be made here. But they blow it. Adam throws the only friend he's ever had, the Woman, under the bus. Had they stood together - it'd be a different book, that's for sure.

So God drives up the middle that Adam has opened up, and arranges for them to kill themselves and each other, slowly. The resource they need, the Tree of Life, doesn't go anywhere. God just posts a rent-a-cop to keep them away from it. God's tactical situation hasn't changed; if that guardian uses his weapon, then God's plan is shot to hell.

The peoples' tactical situation has changed. They will die unless they get past the guard, and live forever if they do. What's the guard going to do to them? Worst case: kill them. Do the math. Heads, you're no worse off than you are already; tails, you win big.

Jeez, call his bluff!

Hell of a story. We're descended from morons :) .

:lol:    :nw:

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Opus Magnus
Posted (edited)

Ummm, I don't remember Adam ever throwing Eve under the bus. He ate the apple with her, that's why he got in trouble. He stayed with her until death, and Lillith is never mentioned in the Bible.

The cruelest thing God ever did was steal the rib from Adam in his sleep, to make woman. One account in Greek myths is that Zeus only made woman as a cruel punishment to torture mankind.

Edited by Opus Magnus

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eight bits
52 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

Ummm, I don't remember Adam ever throwing Eve under the bus. He ate the apple with her, that's why he got in trouble.

To throw somebody under the bus is an American English idiom for, well for this:

Quote

 

3:11 Then God asked: ... Have you eaten from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat?

3:12 The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me—she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it.”

3:13 The LORD God then asked the woman: What is this you have done? ...

 

Adam blames her for something he did. God's question is yes-or-no. The right answer is Yes. Not "Yes, but it's her fault and therefore your fault," just "Yes," and then shut up. Also known in another idiom as "growing a pair." But then, at that point, his are probably tucked up way inside, somewhere around where his belly buttton would be, if he had had one.

Quote

Lillith is never mentioned in the Bible

Correct. It's midrash, just as Christian authors later placing Satan in the story is midrash.

Quote

The cruelest thing God ever did was steal the rib from Adam in his sleep, to make woman. One account in Greek myths is that Zeus only made woman as a cruel punishment to torture mankind.

To each his own. Zeus obviously came around on women. Personally, I think God was moving in the right direction there :) .

 

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Opus Magnus

Yeah, Zeus repented torturing Prometheus after some others saved him. For giving fire to man, which was like eating the apple. But, God also repents his curse on the earth in Genesis.

 But, I'm not sure what Adam did is considerer throwing her under the bus. She was the one who started the problems, and arguing to God to his face about what happened might have worse consequences than telling him how it was at the instance.  But, he stayed with Eve, and they had children, so it's just a bad situation.

Satan is mentioned in Job, and in Psalms. But, in Job, Job rebukes his wife's temptations to curse God, rather than giving in like Adam and eating the apples with her.

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eight bits
1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

Yeah, Zeus repented torturing Prometheus after some others saved him.

That was Zeus' son, Hercules, who saved Prometheus. Redemption from the wrath of the father by the son of god would make an interesting theme for a religion. That might catch on, eh?

Quote

She was the one who started the problems, and arguing to God to his face about what happened might have worse consequences than telling him how it was at the instance.

We have another proverb, about the importance of speaking truth to power. It does require courage and it might not always work out so well, so maybe a prudent person wouldn't go looking for trouble. But Adam no longer has any choice about speaking to power. So, ought he now speak the truth or not?

No arguing is required. The question was "Did you eat the forbidden fruit?" The truthful answer is "Yes." Full stop.

Another truth is that it simply is not her fault that he ate.

"Fancy a gnosh, dear?"

"Sorry, God told me not to."

See how easy that is?

Quote

Satan is mentioned in Job, and in Psalms. But, in Job, Job rebukes his wife's temptations to curse God, rather than giving in like Adam and eating the apples with her.

Yes, Job is also an interesting book. Satan and God are pretty cozy there, don't you think? Also, murdering a man's family and then afflicting him with a devastating illness is such a different style from the Serpent's. It's almost like they're two different characters.

Anyway, just a closing thought back in Eden. There is the curious detail of God explaining himself, not to the defendants, but to somebody else, after the trial and verdict:

Quote

3: 22 Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! Now, what if he also reaches out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life, and eats of it and lives forever?

"Us?" Assuming that God is not muttering to himself, referring to himself using some royal-divine "we," then who're us?

Presumably beings like gods, maybe other gods, maybe angels (who would in many cultures be accounted as gods)... I don't know. But apparently, they are beings who would dispapprove of Adam and the Woman joining their fellowship, and capital-G agrees that they have a point.

Why would there be such reluctance, do you think? Could it be that if Adam had conducted himself more responsibly when asked a simple question, there might have been less concern on high about the prospect of somebody like that being a god?

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Kota
On 4/3/2018 at 10:40 PM, Piney said:

That never has a good ending. Older members of the Native American Church who take that peyote trash are pretty much drooling idiots. In my opinion narcotics can never bring you closer to Creation. Just fry your brain. 

Although I agree with you about narcotics, it isn’t just members of Native American churches that use substances for ritual or spiritual practice, there are multiple cultures that do it, I believe the Siberian shamans (for example) do it to induce a trance when they are asked for guidance etc, while we both agree narcotics are bad, we still should respect a cultures tradition :) 

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Piney
4 hours ago, Kota said:

Although I agree with you about narcotics, it isn’t just members of Native American churches that use substances for ritual or spiritual practice, there are multiple cultures that do it, I believe the Siberian shamans (for example) do it to induce a trance when they are asked for guidance etc, while we both agree narcotics are bad, we still should respect a cultures tradition :) 

The Native American Church isn't a cultural tradition. It's a cult that came out of white influence. :tu:

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joc
On 4/4/2018 at 1:42 PM, eight bits said:

That was Zeus' son, Hercules, who saved Prometheus. Redemption from the wrath of the father by the son of god would make an interesting theme for a religion. That might catch on, eh?

We have another proverb, about the importance of speaking truth to power. It does require courage and it might not always work out so well, so maybe a prudent person wouldn't go looking for trouble. But Adam no longer has any choice about speaking to power. So, ought he now speak the truth or not?

No arguing is required. The question was "Did you eat the forbidden fruit?" The truthful answer is "Yes." Full stop.

Another truth is that it simply is not her fault that he ate.

"Fancy a gnosh, dear?"

"Sorry, God told me not to."

See how easy that is?

Yes, Job is also an interesting book. Satan and God are pretty cozy there, don't you think? Also, murdering a man's family and then afflicting him with a devastating illness is such a different style from the Serpent's. It's almost like they're two different characters.

Anyway, just a closing thought back in Eden. There is the curious detail of God explaining himself, not to the defendants, but to somebody else, after the trial and verdict:

"Us?" Assuming that God is not muttering to himself, referring to himself using some royal-divine "we," then who're us?

Presumably beings like gods, maybe other gods, maybe angels (who would in many cultures be accounted as gods)... I don't know. But apparently, they are beings who would dispapprove of Adam and the Woman joining their fellowship, and capital-G agrees that they have a point.

Why would there be such reluctance, do you think? Could it be that if Adam had conducted himself more responsibly when asked a simple question, there might have been less concern on high about the prospect of somebody like that being a god?

What Adam did was what any child would do...blame their mistake on someone else.  The new creation (man) being told Do Not...negates the entire premise of Freedom to Choose...i.e. Free Will.  

If God is the Father then Jesus is an Uncle at best.  Interesting how the Uncle sits at the right hand of the Father...just another Family dynasty.  Another monarchy where the Blood rules and those who dare go against the King are severely punished. So much for free will. 

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eight bits

@joc

Well, I agree what Adam did was childish. Although I do vaguely remember having been one myself, and from time to time at school, we'd do childish things to annoy the teacher. But when the teacher said "Who threw that spitball?" or whatever, the cool kids would fess up when they were the perps. No drama, just fess up, take the puinshment, and on we all went to the next lesson.

Conversely, that idiom that another poster asked about, to throw somebody under the bus, almost always refers to adult behavior. If it's "childish," then a lot of folks don't seem to grow out of it.

Finally, Adam is now "godlike." God and the Serpent agree about that; it's just gotta be true. That's the best a god can come up with - blame his wife for something he did?

I can't shake the notion that if there were a God, then he'd have been impressed by young Charlie Simms in that famous Scent of a Woman disciplinary committee scene. Some strong language, thoroughly well earned.

 

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