Beliefs (Yours, Theirs, and Mine)

[Jodie.Lynne]

I'm not entirely sure if this is the correct group for this post. If not, Mods please feel free to move it to the correct forum.

 

For the record, let me state that I am an atheist. I have not seen nor heard sufficient evidence for me to believe that God, gods, Great Spirits, or other deities exist. And that any tales of such beings indicate the nature of said deities. All the myths I have heard/read/studied seem very human-like to me. That does NOT, however, preclude the fact that I may be mistaken. and if, at some time, evidence is presented to me that overwhelmingly proves that such celestial creatures are fact, then I will change my opinion.

 

As to others beliefs, I say "If your belief (or religion) brings you comfort and peace, then it is the right belief (or religion) for you. But not necessarily for me." I am quite happy to let you practice your faith and live your life as you will.

But, if your beliefs cause you to marginalize others, I will oppose you.

If your religion teaches you to hate others, I will stand with the hated in defiance.

If your faith tells you to deny others their rights, I will fight you to my last breath.

If you try to legislate your beliefs, imposing your rules on others, I will vote against you.

If, after telling me your god is 'beyond the understanding of men' you then try to tell me that YOU know what god wants, I will laugh at you and call you liar.

 

We are each of us, searching for answers. If the answers you have received bring harm to even one person, then that answer is false. IF faith & religion are human necessities, then in a perfect world, we should be able to take the very best that the varied faiths have to offer and discard the hateful parts. Perhaps each belief system has within itself, a kernel of truth. Maybe, they all have a piece of the whole ideology that would bring peace to our world. But sad to say, my observance has been that all religions are false. For if there truly was a creator being, then the message to all "faiths" would be the same.

 

Discuss

 

[Guyver]

I’m not an atheist, but I don’t have any problem with what you just said.  I don’t have a category for myself, but I’m probably most closely an agnostic.  I believe in something I call God for lack of a better word...and I believe in other things atheists don’t accept....but I don’t have any way of defining them, demonstrating them as factual, or feel the need to make a religion out of it.

[+Not A Rockstar]

Tough to discuss when I essentially agree with everything said so far, beyond the qualifier that I am firmly in the God camp, though I can't say what God is for sure. I know some things, but, not much as to what exactly God/Creator is.

My "religion" pretty much falls in line with the OP's listing of things he believes. If that is a religion. I do not like religions very much, tbh. They all go wrong, from what I have seen.

If a person strives for hope and better for tomorrow for everyone, and to be as good as he or she knows to be, then that seems to be the right "orders" from God to me and I am fine within general civility and mutual respect among others with divergent beliefs from mine.

One thing I am very firm about is that the Public arena needs to stay PUBLIC. I do not like religious encroachment there or into PUBLIC events and cultural interface, such as in Court or politics or law or schools. It needs to be equal access and non-squelching, as in a recent thread about some board leader refusing to allow an atheist to give the opening words or meditation or prayer or whatever they were having. The People are diverse. They are all equal. 

I digress. That's all

[XenoFish]

I consider myself an indifferent agnostic, meaning "I don't know, I don't care" when it comes to god and spirituality. I am atheistic towards the gods of man however. I can't really discuss anything you've wrote, because I agree with it.

[Lilly]

Belief is a choice when knowing is not an option. 

When Einstein lay dying someone asked him what he most wanted to know. This was his answer: "I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are mere details". We live among the details, looking though a glass darkly unable to know the ultimate truth of the Universe. 

So, you can choose to believe or not to believe regarding God...because knowing is simply not an option. 

[preacherman76]

You guys are going to hell. lol JK

[Lilly]

23 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

You guys are going to hell. lol JK

Ya know, if it does work this way (that God sends certain souls to Hell) then none of us are privy as to who's actually heading there. 

[preacherman76]

33 minutes ago, Lilly said:

Ya know, if it does work this way (that God sends certain souls to Hell) then none of us are privy as to who's actually heading there. 

Amen to that Lilly. There has been plenty of times in my early Christian days, when I believed everything I was told about hell, where I thought to myself I probably wont be able to escape the flames myself. I'd look at people I was told were going to hell and think damn, that's messed up. The concept of hell has always been a big struggle to me. When I finally shed myself of it, I couldn't help but to think God was saying 'well done my good and faithful servant, I don't know how you could have ever believed that about me to begin with'. Of course I didn't actually hear that, I just couldn't help but to think it.

That's not to say I know there is no hell, cause I don't. It may be every bit as awful as I was told. And for all I know the vast majority will go there. It's just always been counter productive in my faith when I considered it. I cant have the foundation of my faith based in fear, it just doesn't work for me.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

There is part in Quran which relates (as i see it) to reply given by Mohammad PBUH to idoltary belief followers, regarding their offer about practice of religions.

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

1. Say: "Oh, you who disbelieve!
2. "I do not worship that which you worship,
3. "Nor do you worship That Which I worship.
4. "Nor will I worship that which you have been worshipping,
5. "Neither will you worship That Which I worship.
6. "To you your religion and to me mine."

So, basically, religion (in this case Islam) must not and can not, if practiced truly and honestly, be used to oppress that which is different. In the ''Last Sermon'' some rules to Muslims were decided and those were based on most important and fundamental human rights, such as that there is no difference between Black or White, Arab or non-Arab and so on...

That's why i can not understand some people and how they act because, as i believe, other religions teach pretty much the same, maybe in other ways but still, essentially the same. As ''love thy neighbor''. That's beautiful logic, it was way ahead of it's time and i see it as a disgrace to everyone that some people have managed to distort what is really written in the scriptures of every religion. There were terrorists from all faiths for example and for them, religion is just an excuse, not the reason. 

Everyday life in every society, unfortunately, gets polluted, so to say, by that which immoral individuals do and yet we manage, somehow, to deny morality behind that which actually made basis for evolution of human rights. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, especially Islam, gave us the base model of civilized living for every person and just life in nature for every animal alive. So, essentially, i believe that mistakes are made in how we look at religion and how we interpret someone's excuses as being the reason for his conduct.

Until we chose books rather than words from questionable characters, in our search for truth we won't get far. And BTW, Heaven is for those who respect those basic moral lessons that any religion teach, not only Abramic religions, that was the message to people of the world as whole.

[XenoFish]

Religion just complicates things. 

[DebDandelion]

I have found that in Christianity itself you find different factions. Not to go into details, I am not living in the 'old testament' Christianity. For me, new testament...that's where I find my roots. Love is the biggest command. I firmly believe in heaven and hell, part of who I am. But even my father, a rigid Christian of old has 'evolved' and leans to my way. For me, judgement doesn't fall on a human(mere mortal) , it is my place to say what I think, but so is it the others to say their say and disagree with me. Doesn't make them to go to hell...it is not my place to judge. 

I agree with the OP. Just wish others (christians) would be less talk, more think and more listen. MO

[DebDandelion]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Religion just complicates things. 

The thing is. If religion allows evolution of thought And accommodation of ideas it wouldn't. Love others, treat them as u want them to treat u. Simple. No matter what religion promotes that...

[XenoFish]

Just now, DebDandelion said:

The thing is. If religion allows evolution of thought And accommodation of ideas it wouldn't. Love others, treat them as u want them to treat u. Simple. No matter what religion promotes that...

You don't need religion to have a well balanced life philosophy. 

[DebDandelion]

13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You don't need religion to have a well balanced life philosophy. 

Agreed. But most of our philosophy comes from experiences with religion (of any kind)

[XenoFish]

12 minutes ago, DebDandelion said:

Agreed. But most of our philosophy comes from experiences with religion (of any kind)

Religion takes the thinking aspect out of philosophy. 

[DebDandelion]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Religion takes the thinking aspect out of philosophy. 

Agree to disagree. Religion (for me) leads to  lot of philosophical thought. But I can meet you halfway and say it depends on the type of religion an individual practises... That influences the thinking process...

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, DebDandelion said:

Agree to disagree. Religion (for me) leads to  lot of philosophical thought. But I can meet you halfway and say it depends on the type of religion an individual practises... That influences the thinking process...

I can agree with this.

[Jodie.Lynne]

10 hours ago, DebDandelion said:

Agreed. But most of our philosophy comes from experiences with religion (of any kind)

Would you like to elaborate on this statement? I ask, because many religions seem to be of the "don't think, don't question, just believe!" school of (non) thought.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

Would you like to elaborate on this statement? I ask, because many religions seem to be of the "don't think, don't question, just believe!" school of (non) thought.

I was just sawing with a old Amish Preacher friend today. His grandson stayed on Rumspringa and got a tech job about ten years ago. He decided to come back to his grandfather's farm, live simple, make furniture and raise horses.  But he decided also to stay agnostic and doesn't attend Meeting. His grandfather was fine with that. The reverse is true of "The Truth Bible Church" up the road. When a member leaves they curse him and "pray in tongues" against him.

There is good and bad in all.....

[DebDandelion]

2 hours ago, JMPD1 said:

Would you like to elaborate on this statement? I ask, because many religions seem to be of the "don't think, don't question, just believe!" school of (non) thought.

Most of my explaining lingers on examples... So here goes.

Imagine you have been in a relationship with someone and this person exposed you to a kind of religion. Automatically if you have a philosophical soul you will start using the things you see as 'wrong ' in that religion to create the foundation of your philosophy.

But , as many things in  life, as age creeps up on you , your mindset changes and your philosophy either becomes simpler or more complex (depending on you as person. Me myself went and got simpler....my sister... More complicated)

So. Religion (with its rules and regulations) stimulates thoughts of what should not be enforced (again, not in all, in some) and the critique we have for a religion evolves into a philosophy. 

In its own way (completely my own opinion here) philosophy also becomes a form of religion.  

Did I answer your question?

[DebDandelion]

2 hours ago, JMPD1 said:

Would you like to elaborate on this statement? I ask, because many religions seem to be of the "don't think, don't question, just believe!" school of (non) thought.

The interesting part is ....I grew up Christian. But as I was growing up my father ensured that we question what we read, question what we observed.

Now, the answers he gave was satisfactory, and to this day I cannot find fault in it. I have my own children, and I teach them the same...question everything. The challenge is, the masses won't agree (again...not phased here... I believe I have sufficient answers for my questions).

I have found factions of Christianity that simply doesn't bend an inch. And I have heard them criticize and break down others. For me, this is simply contradictory to what I grew up with. Completely!

I have a variety of friends. Muslim, Catholic, heck I even have an atheist friend. But strangely, none of those that I make friends with are rigid and 'ugly' to society. The evolution of thought and philosophy towards life seems to rotate us towards each other. We speak freely about misconceptions , and we clear the air. Best of all? None of us try to convert each other to a religion. We accept each other...completely. 

I am rambling. Do I however answer?

[Guyver]

We live in little houses and we all get what we need.  It’s brilliant really.  It all depends on your perspective.  

[Guyver]

1 hour ago, DebDandelion said:

The interesting part is ....I grew up Christian. 

I am rambling. Do I however answer?

I also grew up Christian.  I went to youth group, etc.  I continued to live those beliefs for a long, long time and let them shape my life to a ridiculously enormous degree.....but that’s how I do stuff, all the way or nothing.  Anyway, sometimes I ask myself if I regret it....and I really don’t.  I don’t believe it anymore....but I’ve learned that’s ok because it is what it is.

[Jodie.Lynne]

18 hours ago, DebDandelion said:

>SNIP<

Did I answer your question?

Beautifully, thank you

[intoyoulikeatrain]

On 4/3/2018 at 10:56 PM, Guyver said:

I continued to live those beliefs for a long, long time and let them shape my life to a ridiculously enormous degree.....but that’s how I do stuff, all the way or nothing.  I don’t believe it anymore

Doesn't sound like you went all the way. How deep do you think you'd gone into it? Are you known to give up easily? Did you stop cos you didn't get a wish? What have you done for Christianity that's out of the ordinary when you called yourself a Christian? What would bring you back to it?