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The Gun Grab Begins


OverSword

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On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:19 AM, preacherman76 said:

Man why are there so many of you that are soo easily led by msm? Trump is gonna commit a false flag right? SMH my goodness. I didn't think it was possible you guys could be convinced by anything THIS dumb. I'll make sure to never underestimate just how far you can be led.

If you read the post I commented on, I was just adding to their hypothetical scenario. Really just pointing out the right is presently in control, so if any fake false flag event would happen to occur (like in the movies) it would be from the right.  Personally never watch MSM so I don't get the correlation.

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On 4/10/2018 at 11:03 PM, Farmer77 said:

And this statement shows how blinded by ideology you are.  Those students caches' were raided because of threats or behavior that caught the attention of authorities. 

Well, the raids were because of behavior, not the caches.  When I was in high school, it was common to have a shotgun or rifle on the window rack in a pickup truck.  Nobody worried about such caches.

 

The Constitution is my ideology, so yes, I am blinded but it’s not because I cannot see other forms of government.  I see them all too well.  I know better than to waste my time on fruitless others.  The great thinkers of the Age of Enlightenment dragged us forward but that was too much of a shock to the system so those of the likes of Marx and Engels tried dragging us back.  Monarchy didn’t work.  Imperialism didn’t work.  Marxism, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism didn’t work.  Now, it’s Democracy and Globalization.  The only way for it to pick up steam is to degrade our rights, starting with the right to bear arms.  It’s like a drug.  Just say NO!

 

I'm not irrationally fearful but if you want to know the truth my biggest fear is that your mindset will lead to the 2nd being repealed altogether. 

Really?  I gotta hear more on this.  Have you really paid attention to any of my posts?  That last statement of yours would indicate – no.  The difference between us is that I’ll stand and fight for our Rights and you’ll allow anyone to come by and dismantle them piecemeal.  Whose mindset is more dangerous?

 

Yes I think I would agree the Christian right has largely forgotten what it means to be moral. Thankfully they're becoming a smaller and smaller minority. 

Are you trying to refer to the Moral Majority??  That was more political than Christian.  Today, the majority of this nation is still Christian and Conservative.  That’s what got Trump elected.  What is getting smaller are those that identify with a particular denomination.  Those that believe in GOD are as numerous as there have ever been

 

That's a great line, along the lines of guns don't kill people people do. Making it more difficult to get guns will make it harder for people from using guns to kill people however. 

It is a great line because it is true.  Making it more difficult to get guns may make it harder for people to use guns to kill, but it won’t stop the killing.  Again, I point to perspective.  Mass shootings are really very rare and kill a minuscule number of people compared with other forms of death.  The MSM and those like the Progressives and Soros blow it all out of proportion for ulterior motives.  The vast number of killings is usually done mano-a-mano.  If you take away guns, then people resort to knives, like what we see in London.  Do you just not get it?!  Taking away the guns won’t stop the killing; it’ll just destroy the Constitution.  The killing is not because of the 2nd Amendment, it’s because people violate it.  And then if you take away guns, gun forging will go underground in very much the same way alcohol did after the ratification of the 18th (which was later repealed with the 21st).  Let’s not go down that path.

 

That's kind of the entire point. Only people mature and dedicated enough to do such a thing should have access to weapons beyond revolvers and single shot rifles. 

Taking guns away doesn’t make immature people mature.  And if that’s the reason to take guns away, you hurt those that are mature.  So you have to do something else, like the points I presented.  When you change the environment and start children young to respect life and guns, then they mature doing so, by making it habit.  But this society has drifted away from teaching responsibility.  It’s not a matter of guns, it’s a matter of maturity.  What part of the 2nd puts limits beyond revolvers and single shot rifles?

 

You still don't get me LOL. I'm not arguing for a gun grab, just seeing the flaws in your position. I also see the flaws in the gun control position as well. 

I get you very clear.  You are arguing for grabbing guns and hence striping our rights from us.  There are no flaws in my position.  I stand with the Founding Fathers and what they intended.

 

At this point in history I honestly see your do nothing mentality as a bigger risk to the second than the gun grabbers. I believe the 2nd is important for one thing and one thing only : defending against tyranny. I don't give a flying **** about gun sports or home defense and trying to maintain the status quo for those reasons is simply going to end up placing us in a situation where we lose it all eventually.

Do nothing?  There are other things that can be done besides taking guns.  And my reply here covers several.  At least you understand why we have the 2nd.  Yes, it is to defend against tyranny and when you start picking away at it with restrictions, then you allow tyranny a foothold.  The Bill of Rights was never a document that granted rights, it was a guarantee that the government cannot restrict our rights.

 

We can keep the second while still making our society a safer place. 

We can keep our society safer by not touching the 2nd.  What’s more dangerous?  Putting up with the pain of loss from our ugly sides or loosing our freedom?  Our freedom is far more precious than life itself.  Without freedom, there is no life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  The answer is not to change the 2nd but to change ourselves.  The impetuous here is to be initiated by the individual and not the government.  Which means bringing back individual responsibility into society.

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On 4/7/2018 at 1:36 PM, Torchwood said:

Ah, Wooly thinking at its best...

Really?  I’m pretty confident in my belief.  You are the one unsure.  That’s why those like me drive those like you crazy because we accept the existence of the supernatural world.  Just because empirical proof doesn’t exist to your liking doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.  We still don’t have empirical proof of Blackholes but we think that we have observed them.  That’s not empirical proof.  There is still a vast amount of things we do not understand about this universe, let alone have empirical proof for.  But we live our lives accepting the proposition of certain things existing.  We are masters of our domain only out of our ignorance.  Fifteen hundred years ago everybody "knew" the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody "knew" the Earth was flat. And fifteen minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

 

I was starting to respond one way, but I went through several revisions before deciding to go this way, instead of going just point by point.

 

We can’t see gravity but we see how it affects objects, so we know it must be there.  Just like the existence of GOD.  Gravity can’t be proven, hence why it is a theory.  We can use mathematics to describe it, but gravity itself cannot be observed.  It is truly an invisible force.  It’s the same way with Rights and Morals.  We really can’t see these, but we can see the effects they produce on the human condition.  We don’t have the mathematics to describe them, but we know they exist.  As you pointed out, when Man is left to his own devices, creates his own set of Morals and that has led to a lot of misery, because Man’s morals are based in selfishness.  That’s normal.  Therefore, Man is incapable of devising some other set of morals that doesn’t reflect his nature.  That happens anytime we stray from GOD’s morals.  The absence of GOD’s morals is Man’s. 

 

If you study religion enough, you begin to see that morals are a list of commandments that ultimately reflect respect.  Respect of self, others, and God.  No matter what religion.  Some religions are more introverted in the applications of said morals, but they are basically the same from one religion to the other (that also indicates a common origin).  Indeed, if there was no GOD then these religions wouldn’t be as homogeneous as they are today.  Man is a great imitator.  When GOD’s morals are introduced, Man will imitate said morals.  I would say that that was the whole purpose of the history of the Old Testament and that was to instill GOD’s morals unto Man.  It was those morals that led to the creation of this country but like the Children of Israel, we are drifting away and we see that in the increase of violence, especially the youth because they operate on Man’s morals and not GOD’s.  And we are letting that happen.

 

The Judeo-Christian set is perhaps more generic than other religions??  Don’t confuse morals with intrinsic traditions of any one particular religion.  They are not necessarily the same.  So Man has these two sets of morals, both fighting for dominance.  Which one do you think is more beneficial?  Natural Rights then is the practical application of these Morals.  With Rights, comes Responsibilities and hence, Respect.  So by implication, our Rights are GOD given.  Man given or developed morals do not concern themselves with respecting others.

 

Tutankhamun’s time is past so his input to preserve the seed is irrelevant.  GOD’s first commandment to man was to be fruitful and multiply (Gen 1:28).  You don’t even have to believe in GOD to see that it is documented.  It was laid down that protection of the seed was utmost.  And reproduction is how the seed is preserved.  Nothing lasts forever but forever is a long time.  When we transcend this plain, ‘forever’ will have no meaning.

 

Never said he did...but I think Locke would have been better informed.   

You don’t mean better informed but more inline to your way of thinking.  Locke didn’t hold traditional Christian beliefs.  His understanding of nature was still in it’s infancy as was science.  But again Natural Selection does not prove GOD does not exist.  I think Locke would just simply seen Natural Selection as a part of GOD’s creation.

 

And you don't know what Quantum Entanglement is.

I love this part.  It is an absolute gasser.  I don’t suppose you are familiar with the concept of Multiple Discoveries?  Calculus, Natural Selection, Flight, Telephone, Electricity, etc. were independently discovered at about the same time.  It’s become a well known phenomenon.  One idea incorporates Quantum Entanglement.  I’m one of the ones, according to this theory, that invented it back in the 60s.  Back then, I only had a basic understanding of it.  Didn’t know until later that it was called Quantum Entanglement.  I believe that in time, QE will be used to measure the supernatural, the mind, soul, and spirit.

 

I did not, I asserted that wherever those rights come from there is nothing to suggest they are found naturally lying around like Hydrogen and Gravity, and nothing to suggest they are god-given due to the frikking enormous question mark hanging over the existence of God.  The only place that actually can be demonstrated to exist that could have generated them is HUMANS!

Yes, you asserted that rights came from humans.  What is the nature of a human?  It is one of selfishness.  How does respect derive from selfishness?  It can’t unless there is some other source.  Did my “Lord of the Flies” example go over your head?  Yes, I think so.  What happens to people where Man grants rights?  It becomes tyranny.

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On 4/8/2018 at 12:14 AM, pallidin said:

Talk about "road rage" if powerful weapons were commonly available.

Or a dispute with your neighbor's barking dog.

You must have some pretty seriously touchy and unstable neighbors if they'd get into a shooting war over a barking dog.  This is the same old canard that's always thrown out during gun debates.  There are rules that apply to everyone who desires to live in a civil society.  The fact is that since most do desire to live peacefully and without fear, they follow those rules.  Gun owners tend to be the MOST careful and law abiding.  I carry regularly and have never even considered pulling the pistol out due to a perceived threat.  The responsibility is a tremendous one.  Legal gun owners in America understand the risks of even using a weapon to clearly defend their lives in today's legal climate.

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Look at the current move by the anti-gun people to limit guns.They call a restriction of certain long guns “common sense” legislation. These people have destroyed the use of the words “common sense” for all of us just like they destroyed the word “liberal.” In both cases, the use of the words was driven into oblivion by using them in an Orwellian manner.

I don’t trust the government and this country was established on that bedrock principle.

I don’t trust the people who are lying to us about what their true intentions are about gun control just like they lied to us about government-run health care. They want all guns in the control of government-controlled apparatchiks.

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And in no Particular order...

On 4/15/2018 at 7:09 PM, RavenHawk said:

We can’t see gravity but we see how it affects objects, so we know it must be there.  Just like the existence of GOD.  Gravity can’t be proven, hence why it is a theory.  We can use mathematics to describe it, but gravity itself cannot be observed.  It is truly an invisible force.  It’s the same way with Rights and Morals.  We really can’t see these, but we can see the effects they produce on the human condition.

We can see Gravity by the effects it has...we cannot see God or Rights using the same method. Rights are not inviolate, that is it is really easily to take them away, the universe itself does this thousands and thousands of times a day by killing people despite their "right to life", billions of people were born without guns (due to the simple fact they hadnt been invented yet)  for millenia, violating their right to a gun, and the Right itself totally failed to provide them with one. God seemingly has no power at all, it is very easy to live a life without him, very easy have a totally different God, and while his followers rant and rave and try and take away your rights , he does pretty much nothing...

 But gravity, gravity can't be ignored. It cant be avoided. Its always there. They even leave it on at the weekends.  

Heres a simple experiment you can perform yourself, and invite you to do so, in which we can pit God and your Rights against Gravity; Take your gun, and make your way to the top of a handy skyscraper. Pray to your God to protect you from Gravity, point out to Gravity that if it does anything to harm you or seperate you from your gun its in violation of rights and you'll shoot it...then step off the building.  Let me know who wins.

 

On 4/15/2018 at 7:09 PM, RavenHawk said:

What is the nature of a human?  It is one of selfishness.  How does respect derive from selfishness?

Even if this was true (which it isn't)  the demand for respect derives directly from selfishness- remember all those kings and gods and chiefs all wanting your respect  but getting miffed if you respect anyone else?   

 

On 4/15/2018 at 7:09 PM, RavenHawk said:

I don’t suppose you are familiar with the concept of Multiple Discoveries?  Calculus, Natural Selection, Flight, Telephone, Electricity, etc. were independently discovered at about the same time. 

Indeed it is. Very well known...and yet, believe it or not, nothing at all to do with Quantum Entanglement . Nothing at all. Not even remotely related. The one has nothing to do with the other. In any way whatsoever. The correct term for what you are trying to describe is "coincidence". Nothing magical, nothing quantum, just and only coincidence.

I really cant believe youve invoked Woo in this debate; you were doing so well up to that point, it was a nice interesting philosohpical debate, and then you literally made stuff up and put a sciencey sounding name on it to make it look like you knew what you were on about.  I'm not even going to go off and try and explain what  Quantum Entanglement is because this really isnt the thread for that (heres a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement) , but it really isnt what you think it is.  Not even a little bit. 

And no amount of belief or certainty can ever make it what you think it is, because thats not how belief or certainty work.

 

On 4/15/2018 at 7:09 PM, RavenHawk said:

You don’t mean better informed but more inline to your way of thinking

No, I really and literally mean "better informed". He would have had more information, and better information upon which to base his ideas.

 

It amuses me that the more you try and explain the foundations of your beliefs  the more unstable the whole structure looks, because its apparently built on a bedrock of fairy tales.  Which brings me back to my original point - a simple statement of desire for the right combined with a promise to use it responsibly (a duty of care to others who might be affected by your right), gives you a much firmer footing for having it and keeping it. Invoking all that hippy nonsense just makes your position weaker.

Edited by Torchwood
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Just now, Torchwood said:

And in no Particular order...

We can see Gravity by the effects it has...we cannot see God or Rights using the same method. Rights are not inviolate, that is it is really easily to take them away,

they are if you have power to protect them, thus the reason for 2nd amendment. btw it served us great deal in Boston few hundreds years ago, lots of boxes of tea floated away, then their owners soon followed

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35 minutes ago, aztek said:

they are if you have power to protect them, thus the reason for 2nd amendment. btw it served us great deal in Boston few hundreds years ago, lots of boxes of tea floated away, then their owners soon followed

They aren't even aware of their position in the world.  They refuse to accept that those who have no means to resist are only being allowed to think that they are free.  

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3 hours ago, aztek said:

they are if you have power to protect them, thus the reason for 2nd amendment. btw it served us great deal in Boston few hundreds years ago, lots of boxes of tea floated away, then their owners soon followed

The year is 2018. These days your not protecting your country kids are dying for your pride. 

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3 hours ago, and then said:

They aren't even aware of their position in the world.  They refuse to accept that those who have no means to resist are only being allowed to think that they are free.  

You've got to be kidding me. Living behind a gun is anything but freedom. It's stupid pride which is usually what gets people killed, I'm this case kids more often than should be considered acceptable 

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It’s 2018! Bad things can’t happen anymore! As bullheaded as you are about us giving them up, we are 100x as adamant about keeping them. It’ll never happen. Ever.

Edited by F3SS
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9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

The year is 2018. These days your not protecting your country kids are dying for your pride. 

For Heaven’s sake!!!  Get off your Party line high horse!  The number of kids that die from mass shootings is miniscule to almost every other form of death.  More lives and potential are lost from abortion than mass shootings.  Being a child is not some protected class safe from the reality of this world.  The loss of any child from any cause of death is devastating, but we carry on.  That is what we do.  A hundred years ago, families were larger than they are today.  In those families back then, there were always at least one that died as a child.  If you don’t want to lose children, then stop having kids.

 

That pride you callously toss about is something that is beyond your understanding.  It’s this pride that is the reason why Americans aren’t trying to drag their kids illegally into a different country so that they can have a better life and can get handouts.  This pride is American Exceptionalism and we have every right to be prideful because no other nation in the world is as free because we have a free expression of all our Rights.  And it’s worth any sacrifice so that even our children can enjoy the same Rights.  Most children live on into adulthood, why should we rob them of their Rights?  We are supposed to pass on an appreciation of those Rights to them.  That includes the Responsibilities and Obligations.  As long as we acknowledge that our Rights are more precious than our lives, we protect our children’s lives.  You can’t seem to be able to wrap your head around that simple truth.  So be it!

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19 minutes ago, F3SS said:

It’s 2018! Bad things can’t happen anymore! As bullheaded as you are about us giving them up, we are 100x as adamant about keeping them. It’ll never happen. Ever.

An event for the late 1700s doesn't apply in 2018. That's downright ridiculous. 

You used to say the excuse of 'my government might get me' was weak and people didn't use it. I see it used constantly of late and its just silly. That  position seems to have changed dramatically. 

I didn't say give them up, we didn't, we put sensible regulations in place that have been proven effective. I'm protesting the 'we are free and anyone who doesn't have guns in thier home unregulated is a slave' bull crap. And its one huge steaming pile of it. The only people who think gun culture is freedom are those supporting it, and globaly that's a minority. If people need to keep telling themselves that to live with the needless death of children, well and good but if those same simple minded folk want to insult others freedoms by calling that farce freedom, I'm sure I'm not the only one who will protest that utter nonsense and state the real world context. Every person insisting on open gun possession IMHO is one small part of the reason school kids die needlessly. It's not freedom it's pride. And it's burden is unreasonable. 

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32 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

You used to say the excuse of 'my government might get me' was weak and people didn't use it. I see it used constantly of late and its just silly. That  position seems to have changed dramatically. 

It’s not the excuse so much as the condescending tone. 

Its just not a reasonable proposition to ask the 99.9%, numbering in the hundreds of millions, to give up something they’re responsible with. It won’t change anything except that someone who once had or could’ve had gun didn’t have one when they truly needed it and now they’re dead. I don’t own a gun. I just hope that I’m never in a situation where I wish I had one. I’ll hate myself for it. Example, a home invasion where someone hurts my wife and kids or worse and a bat or fists weren’t enough. What if I could’ve done something about it? Why should I be denied the right to have the means to do so if I desired? That ain’t right.

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18 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

For Heaven’s sake!!!  

And your preaching is silly too. As Torchwood pointed out, many of us don't recognise God as an authority so the term God given right is meaningless to a great many people. 

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Get off your Party line high horse!  The number of kids that die from mass shootings is miniscule to almost every other form of death. 

Explain clearly and consisiely in less than 100 words why children dying from other causes justifies child gun death. 

I'm not understanding why if children die from other causes how that makes those perishing by deadly weapons as perfectly acceptable. 

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More lives and potential are lost from abortion than mass shootings. 

That's dumb. Seriously that's is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard. It tops the monumentally ridiculous 'my government will get me' paranoia. Abortion is a completely different issue. From health concerns to rape  a abortion is a case by case situation. 

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Being a child is not some protected class safe from the reality of this world. 

Yes  it is. Always has been. Women and children first and all that. Children rely upon the adults to reach adulthood themselves. Considering the selfish view of insisting a gun in your house is more important than making an impact on the mass slaughters we see in US schools on a regular  basis, your comment comes as no surprise. In your quest for freedom you seem to have overlooked basic rights for perceived ones. 

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The loss of any child from any cause of death is devastating, but we carry on.  That is what we do.  A hundred years ago, families were larger than they are today.  In those families back then, there were always at least one that died as a child.  If you don’t want to lose children, then stop having kids.

If you have a family expect some kids to die now? 

That's your idea of freedom is it? 

Doesn't sound like freedom to me. That's just callous and selfish. 

And again, it's 2028, it's not 100 years ago. But gun culture seems to be all about living in the past pretending your fighting some ancient war. 

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That pride you callously toss about is something that is beyond your understanding.  

Pride is not beyond anyone's understanding we all see it as it often precedes a fall. 

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It’s this pride that is the reason why Americans aren’t trying to drag their kids illegally into a different country so that they can have a better life and can get handouts. 

Rubbish. Nobody here is busting a gut to become US citizens or fleeing the country. Australia New Zealand, Japan the UK, Europe all do just fine with regulation, don't have school slaughter. 

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This pride is American Exceptionalism and we have every right to be prideful because no other nation in the world is as free because we have a free expression of all our Rights.

You are expressing that right but the only ones believing your free are yourselves and that's because you need to keep reassuring yourselves that it's all worth it. It's not. 

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  And it’s worth any sacrifice so that even our children can enjoy the same Rights.  

No it's not. Religion sure hasn't sharpened your morals. That's barbaric and sick. No sacrifices should have to be made in this day and age, its the year 2018. We don't do sacrifices, we don't headhunt and we don't discriminate. Gun culture created a situation that armed criminals to create your current rut that your deliberately stuck in. 

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Most children live on into adulthood, why should we rob them of their Rights?  

Every child has the right to reach adulthood safely  you are refusing that basic right for paranoid selfish ideology. 

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We are supposed to pass on an appreciation of those Rights to them.  That includes the Responsibilities and Obligations. 

Letting kids die for paranoid rhetoric such as 'my government might attack me' is anything but responsible and allowing the situation to continue and worsen is shirking your community obligations. 

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As long as we acknowledge that our Rights are more precious than our lives, we protect our children’s lives.  You can’t seem to be able to wrap your head around that simple truth.  So be it!

Letting kids die needlessly is not protecting them, the only people on earth that subscribe to such barbaric idealogies are gun nuts. The simple truth is that other countries have successfully mitigated these odds and created working situations that benefit communities because they wanted to. That's real freedom. Too many gun nuts are so wrapped up in their own BS that such obvious sensibilities are sidelined.

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59 minutes ago, F3SS said:

It’s not the excuse so much as the condescending tone. 

But you don't find the accusation of not being free or government nannys not condescending?? 

Posters who pull that crap out of a hat are just asking for people to protest such inane offensive comments. 

59 minutes ago, F3SS said:

Its just not a reasonable proposition to ask the 99.9%, numbering in the hundreds of millions, to give up something they’re responsible with.

If 99.9% of people really were responsible then the US would not be famous for child slaughter. And regulation would not be an issue. The only people I have spoken to on here who exhibit responsibility are in favour of regulation. Obviously they realise they can well demonstrate need and responsibility. They know such such measures would protect their right and make it meaningful. Community safety comes first in all other civilised places on earth. People willingly made sure that those with a real need were not impeded. That's real freedom, people shaping their own society for the better. 

59 minutes ago, F3SS said:

It won’t change anything except that someone who once had or could’ve had gun didn’t have one when they truly needed it and now they’re dead.

Oh come on now. Schoolchildren should be armed you reckon? That's anything but freedom. It's infringing on real rights. 

59 minutes ago, F3SS said:

I don’t own a gun. I just hope that I’m never in a situation where I wish I had one. I’ll hate myself for it. Example, a home invasion where someone hurts my wife and kids or worse and a bat or fists weren’t enough. What if I could’ve done something about it? Why should I be denied the right to have the means to do so if I desired? That ain’t right.

And if more people didn't worry about what ifs then a lot of killings would never have happened. One of the best solutions I have seen on these threads is a fire extinguisher near the door. It double up for protection. What if your lack of gun ownership saved even one life? Would you be happy that a perceived need was a real world benefit? 

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1 hour ago, aztek said:

you guys do know what misnomer is, they are in my sig and his avatar

You don't seem to know what one is, or an oxymoron for that matter. Not from what I've seen you post. 

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6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

You've got to be kidding me. Living behind a gun is anything but freedom. It's stupid pride which is usually what gets people killed, I'm this case kids more often than should be considered acceptable 

That's your right and your opinion.  It can only be tested when your government chooses to demand something of you that you cannot or WILL not abide.  If you're lucky, that day may never come.  But you'd be the first country in history where it didn't occur, eventually. I wish all of you the best.

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37 minutes ago, and then said:

That's your right and your opinion.  It can only be tested when your government chooses to demand something of you that you cannot or WILL not abide.  If you're lucky, that day may never come.  But you'd be the first country in history where it didn't occur, eventually. I wish all of you the best.

I don't know of any such wars happening here in history or otherwise. Its not the 1700s. It's not coming. If it did there won't be anyone left standing. Meanwhile people die for no good reason. I don't think I'm free, I know it, and when people tell me I'm not because I don't have a gun, knowing we made that decision as a country for the betterment of society as a whole it only goes to prove it that we are free and not bound by fear tyranny or paranoia. If you need a gun to live, then one lives in fear, that's not freedom at all. It's 2018. We have courts and everything. That's the place to settle disputes, not at the pont of a gun. 

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15 hours ago, F3SS said:

It’s not the excuse so much as the condescending tone. 

Its just not a reasonable proposition to ask the 99.9%, numbering in the hundreds of millions, to give up something they’re responsible with. It won’t change anything except that someone who once had or could’ve had gun didn’t have one when they truly needed it and now they’re dead. I don’t own a gun. I just hope that I’m never in a situation where I wish I had one. I’ll hate myself for it. Example, a home invasion where someone hurts my wife and kids or worse and a bat or fists weren’t enough. What if I could’ve done something about it? Why should I be denied the right to have the means to do so if I desired? That ain’t right.

I agree.    I am a responsible gun owner and think I should be able to keep the guns I have.  

I also think it is tragic and horrible when people of any age are killed whether it is by gun, car, pool, knife or any other means.  

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Power tools should only be able to be bought by licensed professionals. No one needs them in their home. If something needs done you should call someone who has a license to use them. Especially chainsaws.

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Just now, Michelle said:

Power tools should only be able to be bought by licensed professionals. No one needs them in their home. If something needs done you should call someone who has a license to use them. Especially chainsaws.

absolutely, it's just common sense, lol

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On 4/17/2018 at 3:00 AM, Torchwood said:

We can see Gravity by the effects it has...we cannot see God or Rights using the same method.

Actually, you can.  You can see how morals and rights affect a person’s life.  It is visibly observable.  Like gravity, they are always there.  For example, in most cases, the countenance of a person that has full unrestricted access to their rights is very different from someone who lives in a gilded cage.

 

Rights are not inviolate, that is it is really easily to take them away,

No, you can’t take rights away.  It’s an improper use of language to say they can be taken away.  They are always there.  It requires the individual to just realize them.  Now, when one says that a government takes them away, it is really restricting a person from practicing those rights.  But in time, people will always find their faith or practice their rights even under the boot of tyranny.  That is a powerful unseen force.

 

the universe itself does this thousands and thousands of times a day by killing people despite their "right to life",

We’re mortal.  That’s not taking our right to life.  It is just the natural end of our life in this plane.

 

billions of people were born without guns (due to the simple fact they hadnt been invented yet)  for millenia, violating their right to a gun, and the Right itself totally failed to provide them with one.

Your child like understanding has missed a very important point.  It’s not the right to a gun.  It is the right to bear arms, or to defend one’s self.  Before guns, what did they have?  And before that?  Perhaps in 50, 100, 200 years, we’ll have plasma rifles, lasers, blasters, phasers, etc.  And the 2nd will equally apply to them.  See what happened there?  Just as we can foresee future weapons, the Founding Fathers had the same insight.  The 2nd wasn’t written to reflect *ONLY* the current times or just muskets, but for all time and all weapons.  The Preamble of the US Constitution is written in a forward-looking manner.  Our Founding Documents deal with human nature and because they do, are still relevant today.

 

God seemingly has no power at all,

GOD’s power is all around.  If you are waiting for parlor tricks, I think you’ll be greatly disappointed.  GOD’s power is the four Fundamental Forces of Nature. 

 

it is very easy to live a life without him,

It is very easy to live without him.  But in time, you have to face reality and I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t want to live without him then.  You can think of living without GOD is like living in the absence of light.  You’re in continual darkness.

 

very easy have a totally different God, and while his followers rant and rave and try and take away your rights , he does pretty much nothing...

Yes, it is very easy to forge your own god.  And followers usually take on the character of that god.  And that god will have the character of its creator.  And then there are those that claim they are followers of a god and misrepresent that god.  The true power of a god is revealed in how close its followers stay to its character.  Therefore, how can GOD have the character he has and be a creation of Man?  He can’t.  In other words, Man wouldn’t create a god such as GOD.

 

 But gravity, gravity can't be ignored. It cant be avoided. Its always there. They even leave it on at the weekends.  

You certainly can ignore it or avoid it.  It happens every time someone goes into orbit.  No, it’s not a permanent thing.  Eventually everything that goes up, must come down, likewise one must come to the realization of one’s rights or the existence of GOD.  No one can ignore any of them for too long.

 

Heres a simple experiment you can perform yourself, and invite you to do so, in which we can pit God and your Rights against Gravity; Take your gun, and make your way to the top of a handy skyscraper. Pray to your God to protect you from Gravity, point out to Gravity that if it does anything to harm you or seperate you from your gun its in violation of rights and you'll shoot it...then step off the building.  Let me know who wins.

It's not a simple experiment.  It is idiotic.  It is a child’s thinking of how the world works.  This is not a game of Roshambo.  Jesus didn’t temp GOD by jumping off the cliff. 

 

Even if this was true (which it isn't)  the demand for respect derives directly from selfishness- remember all those kings and gods and chiefs all wanting your respect  but getting miffed if you respect anyone else?   

GOD is a jealous god and he has all right to be.  It is his creation.  How would you feel if your child denounced you?  Other gods require sacrifice, but how many sacrifice themselves for us?  What god has sacrificed his only son for our salvation?  That is not a concept created from Man’s morals.  In Man’s morals, a god could not reveal such a weakness.

 

Indeed it is. Very well known...and yet, believe it or not, nothing at all to do with Quantum Entanglement . Nothing at all. Not even remotely related. The one has nothing to do with the other. In any way whatsoever. The correct term for what you are trying to describe is "coincidence". Nothing magical, nothing quantum, just and only coincidence.

Nothing magical at all, but QE is just another way to think about “coincidence”.  I don’t believe in coincidences.  Something causes it.  You can’t explain why?  But you are willing to accept it.  Isn’t that a touch hypocritical?  I’m only proposing QE to explain it.  You’re not even interested in expanding your horizons because your world is in a small box.

 

I really cant believe youve invoked Woo in this debate; you were doing so well up to that point, it was a nice interesting philosohpical debate, and then you literally made stuff up and put a sciencey sounding name on it to make it look like you knew what you were on about.  I'm not even going to go off and try and explain what  Quantum Entanglement is because this really isnt the thread for that (heres a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement) , but it really isnt what you think it is.  Not even a little bit. 

I did not invoke Woo at all.  I’ve been mulling over this idea since the 60s.  I know a little of what I speak, but please, give us your definition/understanding (in your own words – keep links out of it – keep it simple) of QE and I’ll show you how it relates.

 

And no amount of belief or certainty can ever make it what you think it is, because thats not how belief or certainty work.

Are you certain?  Is that your belief?

 

No, I really and literally mean "better informed". He would have had more information, and better information upon which to base his ideas.

I already answered that.  Locke would still see Natural Selection as a creation of GOD.

 

It amuses me that the more you try and explain the foundations of your beliefs  the more unstable the whole structure looks, because its apparently built on a bedrock of fairy tales. 

Not quite.  Explaining my belief system becomes more stable when presenting it to someone like you.  It allows me to clarify my thoughts.  It allows me to see how unaware you are.  It’s apparent that all you see are fairy tales.  You haven’t grown up yet.

 

Which brings me back to my original point - a simple statement of desire for the right combined with a promise to use it responsibly (a duty of care to others who might be affected by your right), gives you a much firmer footing for having it and keeping it.

Really?  So we don’t need to restrict any right!  Just rely on Man’s authority to respect others.

 

Invoking all that hippy nonsense just makes your position weaker.

Invoking all that hippy nonsense describes the origins and inner workings of all of it.  It was never weak.

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6 hours ago, Myles said:

I agree.    I am a responsible gun owner and think I should be able to keep the guns I have.  

I also think it is tragic and horrible when people of any age are killed whether it is by gun, car, pool, knife or any other means.  

But what makes you think that under regulations that you would not be able to own a gun? 

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