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The Gun Grab Begins


OverSword

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13 hours ago, aztek said:

is that true?

Its certainly partly true. On the mainland UK Firearms the law requires you to provide a reason for needing or wanting a firearm , i.e collecting, reenactment, sports, hunting, pest control, whatever. Under these rules Self-defence is not considered a valid reason.   In any case any firearm that you might want to carry in self defence requires modification to the point where it would be a pain in the **** to carry- Im presuming that when selecting a firearm for personal self defence people arent picking out bolt action rifles, or anything big enough to need a tripod; you want something small and handy, right? Like a revolver, or similarly sized handgun. Under uk law these items are required to be modified with a much longer barrel, and a big bar protruding from the rear of the grip, effectively making it more of a carbine, and making it tricky to conceal. The restriction on guns is actually based mostly around how small they can be, i.e if you want a small gun you need to make it a bigger gun.  Of course I believe historical firearms and muzzle or front loaders are excepted.

I don't follow the modern day firearms market very closely, ( I'm more interested in historical stuff) but I believe there is a whole submarket of firearms designed for the British market and allowing UK gun enthusiasts access to firearms of a variety of types with the mods necessary to turn rifles which would normally be semi-auto or whatever into bolt action rifles.  Again, I believe historical stuff isn't required to be modified in this way.

 

Anyway, Self Defence is considered a valid reason in Northern Ireland.  And Handguns dont have to be modified to get around the size restriction. (in practice though I think only a handful of permits have been granted for self defence, less than 50 IIRC?)

Why does the law change when you cross the Irish sea?  Well , I cant say for certain but I'd guess it all comes down to the Troubles- There are probably a lot of people in NI that have made enemies, the kind of enemies that hold grudges, and have access to firearms. So the "self defence argument" holds more water there.

In the rest of the UK, the unasked question would probably be "what have you been doing to p*** people off so much that you need a gun to defend yourself?" 

As for keeping them in the home, you certainly can do so, but the guns and ammo need to be stored separately and securely and out of the way in a room unlikely to be entered, which doesn't exactly make it convenient if you need to repel borders. However there are no restrictions on where you keep giant bits of cutlery- I just so happen to keep a replica of an 18th century broadsword on my bedroom wall. Not for self defence, obviously, just because it looked nice there...

 

Anyway, if you want more info, I quite enjoyed this video :

 

Hope that helped!

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8 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

Of course I believe historical firearms and muzzle or front loaders are excepted.

Believe me, carrying a flintlock musket for self defense is a right pain in the ****. "Now hold on, if you could just wait there while I ... Now what is it, take your piece, charge your piece with powder, insert ball, ram your ball, raise your piece, now take your match, apply your match to the powder, wait about half a minute ... 

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18 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

Believe me, carrying a flintlock musket for self defense is a right pain in the ****. "Now hold on, if you could just wait there while I ... Now what is it, take your piece, charge your piece with powder, insert ball, ram your ball, raise your piece, now take your match, apply your match to the powder, wait about half a minute ... 

Ah, I may have not been clear there-  I was referring there to them being exempt from the size restriction, not that you can get a licence for them on the basis of personal defense. 

But, yeah, rapid fire it isnt.  But thats why you stick a couple of feet of cold steel on the business end...

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19 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

I'm trying to think how allowing gun ownership would have helped in the first of those cases at least. I'm still trying to think of something. Otherwise I think it may have to be classified as a non sequitur. :unsure: 

Who said anything about gun ownership helping in either of those situations? (Aside from the fact that we don’t have either of those problems in the the US because we used our guns to kick out the people who would do such things back in 1776). Gun control advocates push the myth that government will protect you and that tyranny is a thing of the past, those are both perfect examples that, no, no it won’t... and no, no it isn’t.

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4 hours ago, Alaric said:

Who said anything about gun ownership helping in either of those situations? (Aside from the fact that we don’t have either of those problems in the the US because we used our guns to kick out the people who would do such things back in 1776). Gun control advocates push the myth that government will protect you and that tyranny is a thing of the past, those are both perfect examples that, no, no it won’t... and no, no it isn’t.

You don't have either of those problems because you used your guns to kick out the people who do such things? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The stories you were referring to were 

Quote

 

don’t talk bad about what they’re doing to poor little Alfie Evans... words hurt you know... 

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/uk-police-warn-people-not-to-speak-out-against-terrible-treatment-of-alfie-evans/

“Consensual” gang rapes of 11 year olds not so much, evidently... 

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/police-blasted-over-telford-abuse-14413498.amp

 

 

What have either of those things got to do with 1776? You seem to be using them as examples of Government tyranny, but how would unrestricted gun ownership have helped in either of those cases? Are you trying to argue that,if unrestricted gun ownership was permitted, the parents would have been able to hold the doctors hostage at gunpoint and take him out of hospital? That's the only way I can make any sense of whatever it is you're trying to argue at all. 

Edited by Vlad the Mighty
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16 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

You don't have either of those problems because you used your guns to kick out the people who do such things? That makes absolutely no sense at all. The stories you were referring to were 

 

What have either of those things got to do with 1776? You seem to be using them as examples of Government tyranny, but how would unrestricted gun ownership have helped in either of those cases? Are you trying to argue that,if unrestricted gun ownership was permitted, the parents would have been able to hold the doctors hostage at gunpoint and take him out of hospital? That's the only way I can make any sense of whatever it is you're trying to argue at all. 

You’re trying to pull a “Snopes” here, put words in my mouth and then argue against that. For the second time, you’re the only one who said anything about gun ownership helping in either of those situations.

In 1776 we kicked the Royalists out and formed our own country, where such things are not allowed to happen... not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that... a little overcompensating in your handle perhaps?

If you don’t think this is tyranny, then maybe the word doesn’t mean what you think it means?

This is the line of defense making sure that little Alfie Evans does not leave the British hospital where he has been sentenced to die.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tdwilliamsrome/status/989545582225231872

 

A9703335-C80B-4122-90E2-4C9B2F4D9F99.jpeg

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I have been seeing a meme a lot goes something like thank god I have an AR15 because if alfie was my kid he’d be getting on that plane to Italy for treatment. That’s very John Q (movie if you don’t know) but it doesn’t make a lot of sense, it wouldn’t work out so well and it doesn’t do much to intelligently promote the pro-gun position.

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7 hours ago, Alaric said:

n 1776 we kicked the Royalists out and formed our own country, where such things are not allowed to happen... not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that... a little overcompensating in your handle perhaps?

If you don’t think this is tyranny, then maybe the word doesn’t mean what you think it means?

so what does any of this have to do with the argument about gun control?

Quote

In 1776 we kicked the Royalists out and formed our own country, where such things are not allowed to happen.

I mean, do you even know what you're talking about? What does this have to do with the presence of not of a monarchy? What does that have to do with it? It makes no sense at all. 

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52 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

so what does any of this have to do with the argument about gun control?

I mean, do you even know what you're talking about? What does this have to do with the presence of not of a monarchy? What does that have to do with it? It makes no sense at all. 

Perhaps he thinks the queen personally decided on whether Alfie lived or died?

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18 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

Perhaps he thinks the queen personally decided on whether Alfie lived or died?

I think he really seems to. He seems to believe that this could only happen under a capricious, despotic monarchy, as if the Queen herself personally issues or vetoes commands. 

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On 4/26/2018 at 9:20 AM, Dark_Grey said:

One interesting aspect about this debate is the way each "side" approaches the same argument.

One side approaches the argument as a victim, "I don't want you to have guns because of what YOU might do to ME!"

The other side approaches the argument as a survivor. 

It seems like that mentality is also closely correlated with the policies and politics of each side.

So, which are you? Are you a victim or a survivor? Are you a free man or a statistic? Are you in front of the gun or behind it? 

 

I guess there are a lot of people who would rather not be on any side of a gun.

But I'd bet there are situations where they might wish they had one. 

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On 5/1/2018 at 2:24 AM, Torchwood said:

In the rest of the UK, the unasked question would probably be "what have you been doing to p*** people off so much that you need a gun to defend yourself?" 

What a difference in perspective. Another unasked question is "what have you done to deserve being stabbed?" or "who did you p*ss off to have your house broken into?" or "you must have insulted the wrong god to have acid thrown in your face!"

Why do you accept being a helpless victim when the tools exist to prevent all of the above? Violent crime in the UK is on the rise and instead of looking for practical ways to defend yourself, you blame the victim? 

"Do you really need a gun to defend yourself against a rapist? Why not just stay home and avoid the risk?"

Talk about living life at 50%...

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Just now, F3SS said:

I have been seeing a meme a lot goes something like thank god I have an AR15 because if alfie was my kid he’d be getting on that plane to Italy for treatment. That’s very John Q (movie if you don’t know) but it doesn’t make a lot of sense, it wouldn’t work out so well and it doesn’t do much to intelligently promote the pro-gun position.

that is exactly the meme i would make if my intent was to discredit pro gun position

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2 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

Another unasked question is "what have you done to deserve being stabbed?" or "who did you p*ss off to have your house broken into?" or "you must have insulted the wrong god to have acid thrown in your face!"

and you don't think that might be the start of a slippery slope?  "He tried to break into my house! Well, he won't be trying that again, now he's dead and all, I mean." There's a concept in military terms of proportional response, and that way of thinking is exactly how things escalate. The Stabbing attacks in London almost entirely involve teenage gangs from certain housing developments in certain areas. Would it be a very good idea if they took to carrying guns to defend themselves? That'd be textbook escalation. And besides, what about the practicalities? Carrying a gun to defend yourself in your own mind might be one thing, but how many would really be prepared to pull the trigger, and thereby have a very good chance of killing someone? That's a very, very big step beyond defending oneself. Even if someone was actually coming at you with a meat cleaver how many ordinary citizens would be skilled enough to be able to draw, aim and shoot all in a second? Should you be expected to walk around with your gun, cocked and loaded for immediate use, in your hand at all times? Even when out shopping? Surely that would only be possible in the world of the Wild West, and then only if one was an experienced lawman or gunman. 

Edited by Vlad the Mighty
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Lots to talk about here..

1 hour ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

and you don't think that might be the start of a slippery slope?  "He tried to break into my house! Well, he won't be trying that again, now he's dead and all, I mean." There's a concept in military terms of proportional response, and that way of thinking is exactly how things escalate.

The situation was already escalated when the front window was first broken by the intruder. Do I wait to see if he has a gun? No, because taking that chance could mean my life. You give repeated verbal warnings, clearly state that you have a gun and if the intruder insists on coming on, it's his funeral. I'm sure military understands "risk assessment".

Quote

The Stabbing attacks in London almost entirely involve teenage gangs from certain housing developments in certain areas. Would it be a very good idea if they took to carrying guns to defend themselves? That'd be textbook escalation.

They already do carry guns. They just happen to stab each other a lot more often. Escalation be damned, these kids are still killing each so what difference does the tool make? "They could do more damage with guns!" Yeah, but you can do a lot of damage with a knife, too. There was story just posted here on UM about a lunatic in China that killed 9 kids with a knife and injured 10 others. That's 19 people he slashed - more than most mass shootings in the US. I think that "escalation" argument full of straw.

Quote

 And besides, what about the practicalities? Carrying a gun to defend yourself in your own mind might be one thing, but how many would really be prepared to pull the trigger, and thereby have a very good chance of killing someone? That's a very, very big step beyond defending oneself. Even if someone was actually coming at you with a meat cleaver how many ordinary citizens would be skilled enough to be able to draw, aim and shoot all in a second?

It's incredibly traumatic to be involved in a life threatening situation but if you read pages 4 and 5 of this thread, we discussed the emotional mechanics of actually having to pull the trigger. Hint: no lawful gun owner wants to kill anyone. That being said, 9/10 times you don't have to. The gun itself acts as a major deterrent to criminals. Just the sight of a pointed firearm is enough to stop most people in their tracks. Couple that with standardized gun safety and firearm use courses and even a novice could effectively stop someone at 20 yards. As for stopping someone in seconds, that all depends on training. The more you train, the better you react under pressure. But that doesn't matter as much as actually having the gun in the first place. If you have a gun, you have a chance to stop the killer. If you don't have a gun, well...at least you can feel morally superior for a moment.

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Should you be expected to walk around with your gun, cocked and loaded for immediate use, in your hand at all times? Even when out shopping? Surely that would only be possible in the world of the Wild West, and then only if one was an experienced lawman or gunman. 

Not in your hand, but plenty of States allow concealed carry or even open carry. The gun isn't cocked and loaded per say, but still very accessible when/if it's needed. Again, I would rather have a chance at defending my life than no chance at all. As for safety concerns, the number of concealed carry incidents is incredibly low. When you are carrying in public, you are very, very aware that you are carrying. It's never taken lightly.

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13 hours ago, Torchwood said:

Perhaps he thinks the queen personally decided on whether Alfie lived or died?

Would a royal baby have had the same treatment? Hmm...

5 hours ago, aztek said:

that is exactly the meme i would make if my intent was to discredit pro gun position

Good point. 

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4 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

What a difference in perspective. Another unasked question is "what have you done to deserve being stabbed?" or "who did you p*ss off to have your house broken into?" or "you must have insulted the wrong god to have acid thrown in your face!"

Why do you accept being a helpless victim when the tools exist to prevent all of the above? Violent crime in the UK is on the rise and instead of looking for practical ways to defend yourself, you blame the victim? 

"Do you really need a gun to defend yourself against a rapist? Why not just stay home and avoid the risk?"

Talk about living life at 50%...

well....no....you've taken my comment slightly out of context there.   Even where self defense is accepted as a reason for gun ownership my understanding is thats its not granted to protect against your normal everyday common or garden burglaries or murders but in response to specific threats, like assassination because you were or are a member of a paramilitary group and your enemies have access to all manner of military grade weapons .  In the rest of Britain , without that history of conflict , its tricky to make such enemies ;)

The thing to remember is that violent crime , even when its on the rise, is still very rare in the UK. Historically , even where our police forces could in theory carry firearms and swords without restriction they didn't in practice usually carry more than a truncheon simply because even before the current restrictions on firearms were imposed they weren't going up against that much violence that often. They were available when needed , and indeed when British officers were deployed to the US to work on a case they would go armed, but generally all they needed to keep the peace was a piece of good solid wood to whack people with.  

As a result the vast majority of citizens (and it is citizens , not subjects!)  don't spend their whole lives barricaded into their houses terrified to go outside as you seem to imply. 

As to why people don't see the need to own a gun in the UK- its not something people are interested in.  Shooting is seen as a sport for the Elite, not the sport of the masses. I discovered a friend of mine, in his 60's , didn't actually know it was possible to legally own a firearm in the UK, at all. It was quite a revelation to him when I told him the other week that it was entirely possible , with a firearms license and the appropriate classification of driving license (and very deep pockets!) you can own a tank with a working gun!  Even my own Dad thought it was limited to shotguns...

I've met a few UK gun owners, generally re-enactors (I've been tempted to go that route myself, but how do you pick a period of history when they are all so interesting!?) and my wife was recently asked to provide a reference for a friend who was applying for her firearms licence (we gather her father was a collector, and she wants to make sure she inherits them without an issue) , but in general most people aren't hankering after owning a gun.  Its not some national desire that's being suppressed by a tyrannical Monarch.  Ive been interested in military history all my life, and discussed it , and the weaponry involved , with friends and acquaintances from all walks of life- hardly any have expressed a desire to own any of the firearms discussed- if they want to own a weapon, its almost always a sword of one sort or another.

I think the main lamenters of the UK gun laws are actually our Olympic shooting teams and the like, who have to go to NI to practice , in contrast visiting teams are given permission to practice on the mainland...which is weird, right?

I've been considering which, if any, weapon (or other item), holds a similar place in British culture as the Gun does in American culture- I'm not sure if there really is a parallel , but if there is its probably the sword or the bow...most of my friends own one or the other, or both. I don't know if this is still the case for more recent generations but mine was still brought up with tales of things like Robin Hood (and slightly blurred folk memories of Agincourt!) , and so I was shooting with a bow my Granddad made me at an early age...I have no idea how representative I am , but archery is rather popular.  

I feel after all that I ought to state my position in the US gun debate for completeness -  I have no issue with gun ownership. I think the US could do more to make sure that law enforcement and health authorities are more aware about who has a gun, and who really really shouldn't be allowed one, and to prevent legal firearms becoming illegal firearms.  And I find the philosophical basis of "rights" in general (and therefore including the 2nd amendment as its pertinent to this particular discussion) as laid out by certain individuals in these and associated threads to be somewhat shaky.   I'm not sure I added enough caveats there...

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Alaric said:

You’re trying to pull a “Snopes” here, put words in my mouth and then argue against that. For the second time, you’re the only one who said anything about gun ownership helping in either of those situations.

In 1776 we kicked the Royalists out and formed our own country, where such things are not allowed to happen... not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that... a little overcompensating in your handle perhaps?

If you don’t think this is tyranny, then maybe the word doesn’t mean what you think it means?

This is the line of defense making sure that little Alfie Evans does not leave the British hospital where he has been sentenced to die.

https://mobile.twitter.com/tdwilliamsrome/status/989545582225231872

 

A9703335-C80B-4122-90E2-4C9B2F4D9F99.jpeg

Alternatively, that line is to keep the small element of “Alfie’s Army” that has already invaded the hospital once and assaulted staff and gotten as far as the intensive care ward out of the hospital and away from people who they’re endangering through their actions.

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7 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

What a difference in perspective. Another unasked question is "what have you done to deserve being stabbed?" or "who did you p*ss off to have your house broken into?" or "you must have insulted the wrong god to have acid thrown in your face!"

Why do you accept being a helpless victim when the tools exist to prevent all of the above? Violent crime in the UK is on the rise and instead of looking for practical ways to defend yourself, you blame the victim? 

"Do you really need a gun to defend yourself against a rapist? Why not just stay home and avoid the risk?"

Talk about living life at 50%...

"The man was murdered, but he went to the wrong 'hood". "What did that woman wear before she was raped?" Progressives have a way of subverting sense while attempting to minimize blame and guilt where they should be placed. I'm moving further to the right by the day.

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9 hours ago, Torchwood said:

I've been considering which, if any, weapon (or other item), holds a similar place in British culture as the Gun does in American culture- I'm not sure if there really is a parallel , but if there is its probably the sword or the bow...most of my friends own one or the other, or both. I don't know if this is still the case for more recent generations but mine was still brought up with tales of things like Robin Hood (and slightly blurred folk memories of Agincourt!) , and so I was shooting with a bow my Granddad made me at an early age...I have no idea how representative I am , but archery is rather popular.  

That and the good old Lee Enfield .303, as wielded by national heroes such as these ...

Image result for dad's army

 

Edited by Vlad the Mighty
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12 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

That and the good old Lee Enfield .303, as wielded by national heroes such as these ...

Its got its fans, but I don't think your average member of the public would think its anything other than a generic bolt action rifle. And I certainly don't think theres much desire to actually own one. 

 

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On 4/18/2018 at 9:12 PM, ChaosRose said:

suddenly demanding everyone turns in their guns or they're criminals. 

If some delusional group of politicians (of either party) tries this, there's going to be real hell to pay.  I think they understand this and that is a primary benefit of the 2nd in a nutshell.  

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On 4/5/2018 at 9:56 PM, Hawkin said:

I wonder if there will be a lot of stolen gun reports filed in Deerfield before the deadline...:whistle:

If anyone ever shows up at my door for mine, I'm going to remember selling them all and not keeping ANY records.  :w00t:   No law says I can't and there's no way they can prove anything.  If they want to really push it, well, I'm old and will die soon anyway :w00t::gun:

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15 hours ago, Paranormal Panther said:

"The man was murdered, but he went to the wrong 'hood". "What did that woman wear before she was raped?" Progressives have a way of subverting sense while attempting to minimize blame and guilt where they should be placed.

Instead of asking "how can I prevent this?", they ask "how could this happen to me?" That's why I was so taken aback by the difference in perspective. I mean this with all due respect because I love the UK but there seems to be a real victim mentality permeating the culture. Not only do you reject the idea of carrying a firearm, which clearly would help, your Government finds the very notion of self reliance for protection to be ludicrous. Laughable, even. To the point where citizens are being imprisoned for daring to show that kind of independence. Is it really preferable to live with your hands tied behind your back?

Is it?

Coming from the (real) West, that is baffling. Here, we developed the iconic symbol of a Cowboy, a truly free man relying on his own two hands to forge his path through life. Everything he has was earned and he relies on no one. There is a real spirit of independence in America that is hard to find any where else, hence the "Founding Fathers" putting pen to paper and solidifying that beautiful idea: that all men should live free and be able to defend themselves against evil, be it in Washington or their front yard. 

I believe a lot of this is cultural and that's why we have a hard time understanding each other when it comes to gun control. (Not you personally, Paranormal. We are obliviously on the same page.)

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