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White-Coyote

Religion vs atheism, why argue?

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White-Coyote

I can't help but wonder why we feel the need to force our opinions or beliefs on each other.

Neither side can prove existence or nonexistence of God, gods, God like beings/entities ...

The whole point of this thread is basically this, Why can't we just be OK with each other's opinions as long as no one is forcing us into them, maybe not just in religion. 

I see a lot of people with a lot of opinions, as long as we all accept the fact that we have our own right to them... what's the problem?

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Piney
15 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

I can't help but wonder why we feel the need to force our opinions or beliefs on each other.

Neither side can prove existence or nonexistence of God, gods, God like beings/entities ...

The whole point of this thread is basically this, Why can't we just be OK with each other's opinions as long as no one is forcing us into them, maybe not just in religion. 

I see a lot of people with a lot of opinions, as long as we all accept the fact that we have our own right to them... what's the problem?

People enjoy arguing. That's why there is debate forums. :lol:

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White-Coyote
12 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

The topic title and your post are incongruous. The one speaks of religion and the other of faith/belief.

Religion (as in "Lets get a bunch of people together and make up a bunch of rules in the name of god") can lead to all sorts of fun human activities of moral depravity such as: slavery, genocide, prejudice, physical abuse, sanctioned misogyny, mass murder, and child abuse.  These horrible deeds far outweigh any possible positive effects that religion might have.

So it's faith when it's personal, but religion when in a group? 

But I can't say that I disagree. Yes, people have gotten together in the name of religion and done terrible things. 

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White-Coyote
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Because if something is wrong or incorrect it needs to be addressed. 

Incorrect in what way? It's not like rebuilding an engine. Know what I mean? 

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JMPD1
35 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

>>SNIP<<

I see a lot of people with a lot of opinions, as long as we all accept the fact that we have our own right to them... what's the problem?

Opinions are based on one's personal experiences, what one has been taught is 'normal', and one's personal preferences. However, not all opinions are equal, nor equally valid. Here in the U.S., we have been inundated with the notion that all opinions are equally valid and carry the same weight. A very democratic notion and a completely absurd idea that can lead to tragedy. 

If you tell me that the best pizza is one with anchovies & pineapple, that is a personal preference and harms no one. I, however, will NOT be splitting a pizza with you! ;)

The trouble begins when people give their opinion in matters in which they are not qualified. If your cardiologist told you that you needed to have heart surgery to correct a medical issue, would you seek a second opinion from your local auto mechanic? Surely his opinion is as valid as the surgeons, yes?

 

 

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Piney
Just now, White-Coyote said:

So it's faith when it's personal, but religion when in a group? 

But I can't say that I disagree. Yes, people have gotten together in the name of religion and done terrible things. 

My people originally believed spirituality was personal and private. We had "Spiritual Advisors"  not "Spiritual Leaders". Then during the Indian Wars and cultural revival on the White River we had prophets popping up all over. Many people were killed and burned for speaking against these prophets and wars were started because of them. The practice was erased as a bad White influence.

Now I'm fighting the same trash with AIM appointing "Spiritual Leaders" in tribes.  Powerless schmucks who think they can manipulate people....

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JMPD1
4 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

Incorrect in what way? It's not like rebuilding an engine. Know what I mean? 

Using the Christian bible as an example, do you believe slavery is a 'good thing'? Or that women are second class  er, property to be owned and lead by men? How about killing witches or stoning unruly children?  These are all values/morals that are espoused in the book that is touted as 'the word of god', are they not? 

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White-Coyote
1 minute ago, JMPD1 said:

Using the Christian bible as an example, do you believe slavery is a 'good thing'? Or that women are second class  er, property to be owned and lead by men? How about killing witches or stoning unruly children?  These are all values/morals that are espoused in the book that is touted as 'the word of god', are they not? 

No, but I do believe that the Bible was written by humans. ..... and it is a proven fact that humans f**ck up

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Likely Guy
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

I can't help but wonder why we feel the need to force our opinions or beliefs on each other.

Neither side can prove existence or nonexistence of God, gods, God like beings/entities ...

The whole point of this thread is basically this, Why can't we just be OK with each other's opinions as long as no one is forcing us into them, maybe not just in religion. 

I see a lot of people with a lot of opinions, as long as we all accept the fact that we have our own right to them... what's the problem?

That's how I became an apatheist, years ago before I knew it even had a label.

I don't begrudge anyone their (dis)beliefs. I weighed the two together and still came up empty.

I still like the discourse however, only because it's interesting, not that I'll ever find a revelation one way or the other.

Edited by Likely Guy
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White-Coyote
10 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

 

The trouble begins when people give their opinion in matters in which they are not qualified. If your cardiologist told you that you needed to have heart surgery to correct a medical issue, would you seek a second opinion from your local auto mechanic? Surely his opinion is as valid as the surgeons, yes?

 

 

Point taken in that particular sinario, but who is really an expert on this topic?  One can be an expert on the literature 

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XenoFish
21 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

Incorrect in what way? It's not like rebuilding an engine. Know what I mean? 

If an idea cannot change in accordance to facts. It is, incorrect. 

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White-Coyote
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

If an idea cannot change in accordance to facts. It is, incorrect. 

Ok, gocha....... but if you can prove to me whether or not there is a god...lol...without shooting me in the chest or face. 

To say that no God exists is not a fact because it can't be proven. We can't learn that s**t until we're dead.... and if there's nothing....

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XenoFish

Spirituality is a personal and subjective matter. Religion is a structured approach to another persons spirituality. Not only this, but some religious ideologies are nothing more than a form of government. With "god" being a mask for what amounts to the will of man. 

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XenoFish
Just now, White-Coyote said:

Ok, gocha....... but if you can prove to me whether or not there is a god...lol...without shooting me in the chest or face. 

To say that no God exists is not a fact because it can't be proven. We can't learn that s**t until we're dead.... and if there's nothing....

No one can prove or disprove god. I made a comment on this in another thread. Most discussions are really about what religion does, rather than the existence/nonexistence of god. 

Lets say your religion tells you to kill people with nose piercings, because if you don't you'll be killed for blasphemy, due to rejecting one of "gods" commands. 

God has thus become a tool. A means of masking a persons true intent under the guise of it being "from god", spirituality is all about an emotional appeal. 

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JMPD1
14 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

No, but I do believe that the Bible was written by humans. ..... and it is a proven fact that humans f**ck up

Except that there are millions who do believe it is the 'unalterable' word of god. What of those who refuse to take their children to the doctor because it's "gods will" if the child will get better or not. Because they have been taught and accepted the teaching that 'gods will be done', Do you not think that ignorance needs to be addressed, confronted and corrected? If a friend or relative was of the opinion that they could fly by flapping their arms, would you let them try it or would you try to correct their flawed thinking?

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JMPD1
6 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

Ok, gocha....... but if you can prove to me whether or not there is a god...lol...without shooting me in the chest or face. 

To say that no God exists is not a fact because it can't be proven. We can't learn that s**t until we're dead.... and if there's nothing....

Correct, it is not a fact that no go exists. However, it is not the duty of an atheist to disprove god. The fact that there is insufficient evidence presented to prove god that is key to disbelief.

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White-Coyote

So it's organized religion that is the problem?  I'll give a few of my own thoughts now.

I don't go to church, the few sermons I've heard over the years have been at funerals. I also believe that religion is a personal thing

Nothing that I personally believe would hurt anyone other than someone that would do me harm. What dose that make  me exactly?

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XenoFish
8 minutes ago, White-Coyote said:

Nothing that I personally believe would hurt anyone other than someone that would do me harm. What does that make  me exactly?

Spiritual.

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JMPD1

"Mostly Harmless"

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khol
21 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

However, it is not the duty of an atheist to disprove god.

I never consider it a duty at all. However when two parties engage in a mutual debate over it the gloves come off and sometimes feelings get hurt 

too bad for that

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JMPD1
1 minute ago, khol said:

I never consider it a duty at all. However when two parties engage in a mutual debate over it the gloves come off and sometimes feelings get hurt 

too bad for that

Hey, as far as I know, god could knock on my door tomorrow and give me exactly the prove I would need to believe in his/her/its/their existence and I would then change my position on the subject.

That, however, wouldn't necessarily prove it to you, yeah? :)

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ShadowSot

 It can be fun to argue about something, and beliefs don't exactly exist in a vacuum. You might learn something, certainly. 

And you may not change someone's mind directly, but my own was changed indirectly. And it's come in handy occasionally.

 Like religion and atheism not being directly opposed. There are after all atheistic religions. 

 And when I'm particularly bored I like to jump into one of the threads that are targeted at atheists.

 

Personally, as someone who has danced around a few sections of this forum I've always been interested how people won't except a certain type of reasoning for one thing, but then expouse that same reasoning for something they want to believe. 

 Could be aliens, or God, or ghosts, or lost technologies, or what have you.

 

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khol
22 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

Hey, as far as I know, god could knock on my door tomorrow and give me exactly the prove I would need to believe in his/her/its/their existence and I would then change my position on the subject.

That, however, wouldn't necessarily prove it to you, yeah? :)

If god were to knock on my door I would have lots of questions to ask before anything else 

like whats with the suffering and child abuse?..why create something and then let it run amok..why allow us to have a multitude of belief systems when there is only you?..and what exactly is the point you are you trying to make?. and can you please explain it to that starving child there 

maybe yourself can explain all this to me?  please enlighten me. Im truly sincere in that request and not being sarcastic

for me obviously a god does not exist.

Anyway this just goes around in cirlcles..its hilarious. But its interesting enough reading others viewpoints

 

 

 

 

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