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Religion vs atheism, why argue?


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On 4/12/2018 at 4:38 AM, psyche101 said:

To many it's not moot and there is no reasoning behind it, and a detrimental effect in education in some cases and even life

True!  Let's just forget 'gods' for a moment and focus on The God of the Bible...as is believed by the majority of people. There is proof that God does not exist.  

1.  Can virgins get pregnant? No it takes a male sperm and a female egg to become pregnant.   Virgins cannot get pregnant.

2.  Can people walk on the surface of the ocean?  No.  People cannot walk on the surface of the ocean.

3.  Is resurrection possible?  Dead people do not come back to life...near death persons have ...but dead people...never have!

If you negate any of these three beliefs...then you are negating God.  Since the above statements are PROVABLY TRUE...that is proof in and of itself that the God of the Bible does not exist.  It isn't even a difficult logical step to take in one's thought process.  

The problem is this belief that underlies all others:  With God All Things Are Possible.  And that is completely absurd!   If all things were possible then we would need to continue looking for the 'tea pot' orbiting Mars.   

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On 4/7/2018 at 11:46 PM, joc said:

That's not true though.  The non-existence of God is easily proven...by the inability to prove the existence of God.

How do you figure?

Edited by Ellapennella
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22 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

How do you figure?

It is figured this way Ella:

Throughout the history of humanity Gods have come and gone...as concepts...Greek Gods...Egyptian Gods...etc.  At some point the existence of ONE God...only one God..Supreme God...was conceptualized.

From that time...no one has ever been able to Prove the Existence of that God.  Thousands upon thousands of years...no proof.  Now, in the 21st century....proof abounds that most of what was written of the one true God...simply isn't true.

Because throughout history no proof has ever been ascertained...that in and of itself proves the Non existence of God.

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2 hours ago, joc said:
11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

There was no proof for the existence of electrons neutrons and other  invisible things .

 

 

The point being that Neutrons and other 'invisible things' have been proven to be true...yet over the history of man...God...has never been proven to be true.  The inability of that is proof of the non-existence.

Edited by joc
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8 minutes ago, joc said:

It is figured this way Ella:

Throughout the history of humanity Gods have come and gone...as concepts...Greek Gods...Egyptian Gods...etc.  At some point the existence of ONE God...only one God..Supreme God...was conceptualized.

From that time...no one has ever been able to Prove the Existence of that God.  Thousands upon thousands of years...no proof.  Now, in the 21st century....proof abounds that most of what was written of the one true God...simply isn't true.

Because throughout history no proof has ever been ascertained...that in and of itself proves the Non existence of God.

 Is there not something within you that reveals something more to all of this , or do you just live your life everyday feeling or knowing there's nothing but death and that  everyone you knew and loved you will never  love again or feel ever again? 

Edited by Ellapennella
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38 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

 Is there not something within you that reveals something more to all of this , or do you just live your life everyday feeling or knowing there's nothing but death and that  everyone you knew and loved you will never  love again or feel ever again? 

Ella, part of the experience of life includes death of loved ones, and this 

does suck, but this isn’t all there is to the life experience. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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18 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Ella, part of the experience of life includes death of loved ones, and this does suck, but this isn’t all there is to the life experience. 

I should hope not as it would have been far easier to have given up in 2001 when my youngest daughter died or 2008 when my oldest daughter died. I didn’t because of the fact that there is so much more to life than waiting for death to happen. So much more to see and learn. 

cormac

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59 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I should hope not as it would have been far easier to have given up in 2001 when my youngest daughter died or 2008 when my oldest daughter died. I didn’t because of the fact that there is so much more to life than waiting for death to happen. So much more to see and learn. 

cormac

Geez, Cormac, my heart goes out to you for your loss. Hugs.

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11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Geez, Cormac, my heart goes out to you for your loss. Hugs.

Thanks Sherapy. Ellapennella appears to have a sad understanding of at least some of those who don't believe as she does in order to have asked, in part:

Quote

....or do you just live your life everyday feeling or knowing there's nothing but death and that  everyone you knew and loved you will never love again or feel ever again?

It's depressing to think she would even see things that way, but then there are many of us who don't need to have a religious book to give our lives meaning. 

cormac

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Life is what we making it. Though a brief time in the sun. So live it well and love those you can, for all will be a memory one day.

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I personally don't get the need some people have for faith in god, etc. I do and don't understand the need, but that isn't the only way to live/look at life. I mean you can be a perfectly awesome person with and without religion, and you can be scum with and without religion. It's really a people problem. I would like to believe that there is something more to this life on a esoteric level, that there is some kind of cosmic justice system, but I can't see it. 

I think it all really comes down to what gives our lives meaning.

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3 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

How do you figure?

The inability to prove the existence of god is a good reason to ASSUME the non-existence of god.  But it is not PROOF of anything.

Doug

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13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Life is what we making it. Though a brief time in the sun. So live it well and love those you can, for all will be a memory one day.

This is my path too, love and be loved. 

 

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1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

This is my path too, love and be loved. 

 

I blame you for pushing me toward philosophy.:lol:

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3 hours ago, joc said:

It is figured this way Ella:

Throughout the history of humanity Gods have come and gone...as concepts...Greek Gods...Egyptian Gods...etc.  At some point the existence of ONE God...only one God..Supreme God...was conceptualized.

From that time...no one has ever been able to Prove the Existence of that God.  Thousands upon thousands of years...no proof.  Now, in the 21st century....proof abounds that most of what was written of the one true God...simply isn't true.

Because throughout history no proof has ever been ascertained...that in and of itself proves the Non existence of God.

This makes me wonder, (though I totally agree with your post.) how is one particular god, got more attention than others. Though, it does seem to be God right now. (I'm not sure, if the god in Islam is speaking of the same god or a different one.) I wonder how is it, this one has more attention, than others, like the the Greek, Roman, Native American's, and so forth. Despite the thought, the way I see it with this, this one cannot be proven either. I'm not advocating for looking at this one as definitely true, I think I'm far from saying that. But how is it, this one is the star of the show over others? Because, yeah, this one still falls under the same criteria of not being absolutely proven. 

I'm thinking, on the other hand, some man made type of organizations are probably the reason, or does this one have something that grabs the masses? 

25 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I personally don't get the need some people have for faith in god, etc. I do and don't understand the need, but that isn't the only way to live/look at life. I mean you can be a perfectly awesome person with and without religion, and you can be scum with and without religion. It's really a people problem. I would like to believe that there is something more to this life on a esoteric level, that there is some kind of cosmic justice system, but I can't see it. 

I think it all really comes down to what gives our lives meaning.

And I feel, what each individual us, give ourselves, each individual meaning to our individual lives. I often wonder, (and probably get irked) at how there seems to be a certain set of life experiences should be meaningful, and others are not. Maybe it's just me, or not, but I think with the vast differences in cultures, races, characteristics on this planet, one shouldn't think there should be a certain set of values for everyone. 

You're right, or I really think you're right. It's up to each individual to see what gives their life meaning, and not be told what it should be. If someone else can't understand what you see in your life, so what!? I think it can go both ways. The bottom line is, everyone should concentrate on their own values and meanings and be confident in that. If at the most, rejoice in other's differences in how they see their's, or at the least, realize it's not your concern or business how their lives compares to your own. 

Frankly, why argue on someone else's values, unless of course, you're not confident enough of your own. (I'm generalizing this, not saying to anyone particular. ) I personally think, one can learn from the differences of life meaning from other's versions of it. Especially, when there is so much out there to choose from. 

 

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1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

This makes me wonder, (though I totally agree with your post.) how is one particular god, got more attention than others. Though, it does seem to be God right now. (I'm not sure, if the god in Islam is speaking of the same god or a different one.) I wonder how is it, this one has more attention, than others, like the the Greek, Roman, Native American's, and so forth. Despite the thought, the way I see it with this, this one cannot be proven either. I'm not advocating for looking at this one as definitely true, I think I'm far from saying that. But how is it, this one is the star of the show over others? Because, yeah, this one still falls under the same criteria of not being absolutely proven. 

u see in your life, so what!? I think it can go both ways. The bottom line is, everyone should concentrate on their own values and meanings and be confident in that. If at the most, rejoice in other's differences in how they see their's, or at the least, realize it's not your concern or business how their lives compares to your own. 

Frankly, why argue on someone else's values, unless of course, you're not confident enough of your own. (I'm generalizing this, not saying to anyone particular. ) I personally think, one can learn from the differences of life meaning from other's versions of it. Especially, when there is so much out there to choose from. 

~SNIP~

IMO it's easier to explain one deity as being responsible for everything than an entire pantheon of deities to have to explain and keep track of. It's somewhat the lowest common denominator.

cormac

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Stubbly

Quote

I wonder how is it, this one has more attention, than others, like the the Greek, Roman, Native American's, and so forth.

Although cormac's solution is widely held,

Quote

IMO it's easier to explain one deity as being responsible for everything than an entire pantheon of deities to have to explain and keep track of.

the widely recognized downside of that is "everything" includes evil. Many people find that hard to take. So hard, that the "billions sold" monotheisms (Christianity and Islam) have invisible intelligent powers who somehow aren't considered gods (devils, demons, and jinn) to shoulder the evil portion of life. Of course, the one God created these invisible intelligent powers, but it's not his fault that they're evil (hell, some jinn are practicing Muslims, not bad; Allah is merciful).

I'd like to toss out another possibility, that you probably can't have a monolithic single church in a polytheism, or even a few really big (and so wealthy, powerful and influential worldwide) churches. If Bill and Martha offer worship services to the same god, but disagree on the right way to go about it, then at least one of them is doing it wrong, Customers will see that, which is bad for both businesses. Bill will not shed a tear if some fatal accident should befall Martha, and vice versa.

If Bill offers worship to Apollo and Martha to Artemis, then they can both do whatever they like without "contradicting" each other. They are still dividing the market, but that's better than turning customers off of both products. Neither Bill or Martha gets as big as if they weren't competitors, but neither one has to persecute the other just to stay in business, either.

Just a thought. Meh, two thoughts :) .

-
@Stubbly_Dooright @cormac mac airt

Edited by eight bits
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3 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

how there seems to be a certain set of life experiences should be meaningful, and others are not.

I think this is really based on the individuals emotional value they place on such experiences. I think those of us who are parents still get that happy pride feeling at the memory of holding our kid/s for the first time. Maybe that sense of joy that comes from success at something you long worked for. It's really up to each of us to decided which experiences are the most meaningful. Sitting on the swing with my youngest, still a baby. Booping her nose and hearing her laugh, that's meaningful to me.

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7 hours ago, joc said:

It is figured this way Ella:

Throughout the history of humanity Gods have come and gone...as concepts...Greek Gods...Egyptian Gods...etc.  At some point the existence of ONE God...only one God..Supreme God...was conceptualized.

From that time...no one has ever been able to Prove the Existence of that God.  Thousands upon thousands of years...no proof.  Now, in the 21st century....proof abounds that most of what was written of the one true God...simply isn't true.

Because throughout history no proof has ever been ascertained...that in and of itself proves the Non existence of God.

I would have to disagree, a lack of evidence is not a proof of anything. The existence or non existence of God is unfalsifiable in my opinion.

I agree with you however that humanity over its course of history has conceptualised and discarded many God's. One should ask what's the difference between them God's and an Abrahamic version of one?

Edited by danydandan
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7 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:
8 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

This makes me wonder, (though I totally agree with your post.) how is one particular god, got more attention than others. Though, it does seem to be God right now. (I'm not sure, if the god in Islam is speaking of the same god or a different one.) I wonder how is it, this one has more attention, than others, like the the Greek, Roman, Native American's, and so forth. Despite the thought, the way I see it with this, this one cannot be proven either. I'm not advocating for looking at this one as definitely true, I think I'm far from saying that. But how is it, this one is the star of the show over others? Because, yeah, this one still falls under the same criteria of not being absolutely proven. 

u see in your life, so what!? I think it can go both ways. The bottom line is, everyone should concentrate on their own values and meanings and be confident in that. If at the most, rejoice in other's differences in how they see their's, or at the least, realize it's not your concern or business how their lives compares to your own. 

Frankly, why argue on someone else's values, unless of course, you're not confident enough of your own. (I'm generalizing this, not saying to anyone particular. ) I personally think, one can learn from the differences of life meaning from other's versions of it. Especially, when there is so much out there to choose from. 

~SNIP~

IMO it's easier to explain one deity as being responsible for everything than an entire pantheon of deities to have to explain and keep track of. It's somewhat the lowest common denominator.

cormac

That actually makes a whole lot of sense to me! :tu:  Even efficient, in my book. :D  

That, I find, a great answer. ;)  :D  

4 hours ago, eight bits said:

Stubbly

Although cormac's solution is widely held,

the widely recognized downside of that is "everything" includes evil. Many people find that hard to take. So hard, that the "billions sold" monotheisms (Christianity and Islam) have invisible intelligent powers who somehow aren't considered gods (devils, demons, and jinn) to shoulder the evil portion of life. Of course, the one God created these invisible intelligent powers, but it's not his fault that they're evil (hell, some jinn are practicing Muslims, not bad; Allah is merciful).

I'd like to toss out another possibility, that you probably can't have a monolithic single church in a polytheism, or even a few really big (and so wealthy, powerful and influential worldwide) churches. If Bill and Martha offer worship services to the same god, but disagree on the right way to go about it, then at least one of them is doing it wrong, Customers will see that, which is bad for both businesses. Bill will not shed a tear if some fatal accident should befall Martha, and vice versa.

If Bill offers worship to Apollo and Martha to Artemis, then they can both do whatever they like without "contradicting" each other. They are still dividing the market, but that's better than turning customers off of both products. Neither Bill or Martha gets as big as if they weren't competitors, but neither one has to persecute the other just to stay in business, either.

Just a thought. Meh, two thoughts :) .

-
@Stubbly_Dooright @cormac mac airt

Well, I see your point. 

And yes, I like Cormac's answer too. :D 

So, on this thought, now I wonder, if by any chance the religions of today are what's, 'efficiently blended down' ;), how much can they depended upon, if they were 'Happy Mealed'? (I don'l know, if that is a great way of putting it.) ...... ( and yes, I can be wrong in that thinking) 

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:
8 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

how there seems to be a certain set of life experiences should be meaningful, and others are not.

I think this is really based on the individuals emotional value they place on such experiences. I think those of us who are parents still get that happy pride feeling at the memory of holding our kid/s for the first time. Maybe that sense of joy that comes from success at something you long worked for. It's really up to each of us to decided which experiences are the most meaningful. Sitting on the swing with my youngest, still a baby. Booping her nose and hearing her laugh, that's meaningful to me.

That's just it, I agree with you, it's up to us. My thing is, to some, it's not. Or, it's what is being told to what one considers their values. I agree with you on the meaningfulness of raising the kids, and of the things I do with my job, and stuff I worked for. I do feel, that I have to work at feeling grateful and confident, and that I deserve it. Anyhow, my point is, I agree with you and feel we should be the commanders of our values. :D  

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23 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The simple escape form this artificial dichotomy is that these things are largely caused by human behaviours.

   If we accept (hypothetically)  tha t god created humans with free will so they could grow, evolve, learn, and make decions based on  knowledge and accrued wisdom,  then those things do not preclude a creator god a t all.

  Why assume if you created a race you would make them perfect and incapable of choice, knowledge,  growing, or evolving beyond how you made them.  ?

 

1n6rsl.jpg

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9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I blame you for pushing me toward philosophy.:lol:

Lol, you love it!

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''Our discourse necessarily brings us to Christ, because he is the still living myth of our culture. He is our culture hero, who, regardless of his historical existence embodies the myth of the divine Primordial Man, the mystic Adam. He is in us and we in Him. His Kingdom is the pearl of great price, the treasure buried in the field. The grain of mustard seed which will become a great tree, and the heavenly city. As Christ is in us so also is His heavenly Kingdom.''

-Carl G. Jung

That is why atheism is bound to fail.

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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3 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

''Our discourse necessarily brings us to Christ, because he is the still living myth of our culture. He is our culture hero, who, regardless of his historical existence embodies the myth of the divine Primordial Man, the mystic Adam. He is in us and we in Him. His Kingdom is the pearl of great price, the treasure buried in the field. The grain of mustard seed which will become a great tree, and the heavenly city. As Christ is in us so also is His heavenly Kingdom.''

-Carl G. Jung

That is why atheism is bound to fail.

Let's be honest look at the history of religion, the amount of discarded Gods, that is why religion is bound for failure.

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18 hours ago, joc said:

True!  Let's just forget 'gods' for a moment and focus on The God of the Bible...as is believed by the majority of people. There is proof that God does not exist.  

1.  Can virgins get pregnant? No it takes a male sperm and a female egg to become pregnant.   Virgins cannot get pregnant.

2.  Can people walk on the surface of the ocean?  No.  People cannot walk on the surface of the ocean.

3.  Is resurrection possible?  Dead people do not come back to life...near death persons have ...but dead people...never have!

If you negate any of these three beliefs...then you are negating God.  Since the above statements are PROVABLY TRUE...that is proof in and of itself that the God of the Bible does not exist.  It isn't even a difficult logical step to take in one's thought process.  

The problem is this belief that underlies all others:  With God All Things Are Possible.  And that is completely absurd!   If all things were possible then we would need to continue looking for the 'tea pot' orbiting Mars.   

how-was-mary-a-virgin-ifjesus-had-two-ol

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