Religion vs atheism, why argue?

[rashore]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

 

Heh, that's a good way of putting it IMO. I've always found it kind of interesting about the whole pagan/Satan thing. Most Satanists don't even believe in a Satan as an actual deity the way a lot of Christians believe in God as an actual deity. Pagans don't believe in the Christian concepts at all, and that includes Satan. I find it kind of akin to if someone were to try an claim Christians worship Zeus. It just don't work like that, and shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about various faiths.

[ShadowSot]

2 hours ago, JMPD1 said:

Because it shows that if you aren't a Christian, you must be an immoral, sinful, satanic creature, I suppose. I believe that the OP lumps all other beliefs under the label of 'satanism'

Gotta be the right kind of Christian, the wrong types are obvious, they're the ones that do bad things. Like the other religious serial killers. 

[XenoFish]

10 minutes ago, rashore said:

Heh, that's a good way of putting it IMO. I've always found it kind of interesting about the whole pagan/Satan thing. Most Satanists don't even believe in a Satan as an actual deity the way a lot of Christians believe in God as an actual deity. Pagans don't believe in the Christian concepts at all, and that includes Satan. I find it kind of akin to if someone were to try an claim Christians worship Zeus. It just don't work like that, and shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about various faiths.

Most belief structures do not look at the afterlife in a "all or nothing" manner. With Christianity it's believe or hellfire.

[ShadowSot]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Most belief structures do not look at the afterlife in a "all or nothing" manner. With Christianity it's believe or hellfire.

Depends. I've been running into more Christians lately who don't believe in hell. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, ShadowSot said:

Depends. I've been running into more Christians lately who don't believe in hell. 

Those are cafeteria christians. The ones who pick and choose what they like out of their faith and ignore the rest. 

[rashore]

32 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Most belief structures do not look at the afterlife in a "all or nothing" manner. With Christianity it's believe or hellfire.

Yeah, I'm not fond of the believe or hell thing. I also find the "ignorance is no excuse" thing some folks have irritating. If someone does not even know about a deity, how can they believe or not? And that's pretty awful on the behalf of a deity to punish someone and send them to hell because they didn't know. Like some secluded tribes and native people that may not have even heard of Christianity or it's concepts, and they go to hell because of it. Rather unfair that. And then what about all the people that lived more than 2000 years ago? They all go to hell because the religion hadn't even been invented yet- that's extra unfair.

[ShadowSot]

22 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Those are cafeteria christians. The ones who pick and choose what they like out of their faith and ignore the rest. 

Yeah, but it's common and becoming more so. Nothing new there, Christianity today and Christianity of the 14th century are different. Keeping the gist sort of, but changing the details 

[ShadowSot]

16 minutes ago, rashore said:

Yeah, I'm not fond of the believe or hell thing. I also find the "ignorance is no excuse" thing some folks have irritating. If someone does not even know about a deity, how can they believe or not? And that's pretty awful on the behalf of a deity to punish someone and send them to hell because they didn't know. Like some secluded tribes and native people that may not have even heard of Christianity or it's concepts, and they go to hell because of it. Rather unfair that. And then what about all the people that lived more than 2000 years ago? The all go to hell because the religion hadn't even been invented yet- that's extra unfair.

I always had trouble with the Exodus account.. Aside from the plagues and the whole hardening the Pharoahs heart so God could prove how great he was by killing a bunch of kids, it's basically the Hebrews tearing through to the promised land, taking it out on anyone in their way even if there was no real beef with them. And I'm trying to be polite by my my phrasing. 

Ties into what you are saying, as there was no attempt to explain things or go peacefully. In fact, one of the peaceful attempts ended rather badly. 

[jmccr8]

12 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Clearly, it was that...and not the fact that he thought the neighbor's dog was telling him to kill people that was the problem.

Yeah but the dog's name was Lucyfur

jmccr8

[+Liquid Gardens]

48 minutes ago, rashore said:

I also find the "ignorance is no excuse" thing some folks have irritating. If someone does not even know about a deity, how can they believe or not?

Romans 1:20 - "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

 

Yea, I don't find it a very compelling 'argument' either...

[SHaYap]

They knows how to deal with arguments they do ...
 

Quote

 

~

The solemn declaration of papal infallibility by Vatican I took place on 18 July 1870. Since that time, the only example of an ex cathedra decree took place in 1950, when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as an article of faith.

Papal infallibility - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

 

~

 

 

[danydandan]

4 hours ago, JMPD1 said:

Because it shows that if you aren't a Christian, you must be an immoral, sinful, satanic creature, I suppose. I believe that the OP lumps all other beliefs under the label of 'satanism'

I always underestimate the level of ignorence that some religious people show.

[danydandan]

1 hour ago, ShadowSot said:

I always had trouble with the Exodus account.. Aside from the plagues and the whole hardening the Pharoahs heart so God could prove how great he was by killing a bunch of kids, it's basically the Hebrews tearing through to the promised land, taking it out on anyone in their way even if there was no real beef with them. And I'm trying to be polite by my my phrasing. 

Ties into what you are saying, as there was no attempt to explain things or go peacefully. In fact, one of the peaceful attempts ended rather badly. 

There is also zero evidence Exodus took place or that a man called Moses existed in Egypt at the time. Also there is evidence to show the people who build the pyramids were paid workers and not slaves.

[ShadowSot]

3 minutes ago, danydandan said:

There is also zero evidence Exodus took place or that a man called Moses existed in Egypt at the time. Also there is evidence to show the people who build the pyramids were paid workers and not slaves.

I wasn't making the point that it did, but that in light of the story it doesn't really fit what is claimed about God. Though hell makes sense if you just see the same sort of violence being pushed to a metaphysical sense. 

Of course, eternal torture is a bit of a hard sell these days, so people like Ella have to twist non Christians into truly despicable people. 

And yeah, I'm well aware that the builders of the pyramids were well cared for and fed. 

Admittedly that myth isn't from the Old Testament, where the Hebrews were commissioned to build two cities instead. 

[danydandan]

4 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

I wasn't making the point that it did, but that in light of the story it doesn't really fit what is claimed about God. Though hell makes sense if you just see the same sort of violence being pushed to a metaphysical sense. 

Of course, eternal torture is a bit of a hard sell these days, so people like Ella have to twist non Christians into truly despicable people. 

And yeah, I'm well aware that the builders of the pyramids were well cared for and fed. 

Admittedly that myth isn't from the Old Testament, where the Hebrews were commissioned to build two cities instead. 

Oh I know you were talking about the unbelievablity of the actual story, I was just pointing out that there is also no tangible evidence to even back it up in the slightest.

People who push eternal hell on people clearly haven't read the Bible that's translated correctly as there is no use of the word hell in it, or the concept of what we perceive as hell.

[SHaYap]

I wonder if anyone will start selling Tickets to Hell ... just for the hell of it ...

~

[Stubbly_Dooright]

3 hours ago, rashore said:

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

 

Heh, that's a good way of putting it IMO. I've always found it kind of interesting about the whole pagan/Satan thing. Most Satanists don't even believe in a Satan as an actual deity the way a lot of Christians believe in God as an actual deity. Pagans don't believe in the Christian concepts at all, and that includes Satan. I find it kind of akin to if someone were to try an claim Christians worship Zeus. It just don't work like that, and shows a fundamental lack of knowledge about various faiths.

This is kind of how I have felt growing up secular, (no religious meeting attendance and no religious book reading), to the word 'sin' and the label, 'sinner', being used, and expecting me to understand it as being used. Granted, I have observed being ingrained into our culture to the point I understand it be something describing bad behavior and a bad person. (And to the point the word being borrowed to describe the negative aspects of none religious things.), but in the end, looking at the word and label in it's original context leaves me confused. Especially so, when in itself, it's used to describe varying actions and behaviors as negative, when I feel that they are not. (sexual activity outside marriage, cursing, thinking thoughts and just being human) If someone is responsible and mature, certain acts are not harmful or causing a backlash, so why look at them as bad?

And I also 'sin' as something that really doesn't translate to me in my experience. Like wearing certain clothing materials, eating a particular meat on a particular day of the week, things that don't seem to be a real problem to me. 

I think, that if one has stepped out from their own shoes of their particular belief world view, they'll realize, it's not what they think it is. Certain people can call me a 'sinner', because we're all 'sinners', I find confusing, because what is it we are all guilty of? I think that's like being judged guilty, before the trial. Or looked at it another way, if sin is being described for our human instincts, then I think it's not adequately describing our instincts very well. I think our instincts help us in time of need, and can be managed, if we realize their harmfulness and don't let them take over us. To me, that's simple, than just saying we are all 'bad'. 

I think, instead of labeling individuals and their paths and cultures from their point of view, view them as those they don't understand, view them. I think it might bring a better understanding. 

2 hours ago, rashore said:

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Most belief structures do not look at the afterlife in a "all or nothing" manner. With Christianity it's believe or hellfire.

Yeah, I'm not fond of the believe or hell thing. I also find the "ignorance is no excuse" thing some folks have irritating. If someone does not even know about a deity, how can they believe or not? And that's pretty awful on the behalf of a deity to punish someone and send them to hell because they didn't know. Like some secluded tribes and native people that may not have even heard of Christianity or it's concepts, and they go to hell because of it. Rather unfair that. And then what about all the people that lived more than 2000 years ago? They all go to hell because the religion hadn't even been invented yet- that's extra unfair.

Total agreement on this. I would really like to see it being explained as to why ignorance is no excuse. I really do. Like you said, one or they, didn't know! Can the same be said to them, when others and their beliefs punish them, because their ignorance of it is no excuse?!

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

2 hours ago, rashore said:

I also find the "ignorance is no excuse" thing some folks have irritating. If someone does not even know about a deity, how can they believe or not?

Romans 1:20 - "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"

 

Yea, I don't find it a very compelling 'argument' either...

Ah, so that's why!    ........................................

So, shouldn't this bit stop proselytizing? (or it shouldn't have even started) 

And if this is true, wouldn't this have almost everyone in the religion? I would think so. I find that bit a bit vague too. How exactly is it all understood? Wouldn't there be misinterpretations? Why are people being told the 'good news', and taught in bible classes, if it's already seen and understood? 

In a sense, I feel this in my belief, that there 'signs', and 'messages' and other things. Yet, if my belief and having this be a great example on how this is not really working for them, this bit is doing it's thing, but it's didn't make a Christian.  So, in a sense, that failed, I think.  

For the their defense of ignorance being inexcusable, that bit is ambiguous and not helpful in being totally being understood. 

48 minutes ago, third_eye said:

I wonder if anyone will start selling Tickets to Hell ... just for the hell of it ...

~

I'm surprised that hasn't crossed the mind of certain people.    

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Stubbly_Dooright
Change a sense to better phrase it.

[+Liquid Gardens]

42 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And if this is true, wouldn't this have almost everyone in the religion? I would think so. I find that bit a bit vague too. How exactly is it all understood? Wouldn't there be misinterpretations? Why are people being told the 'good news', and taught in bible classes, if it's already seen and understood? 

Good questions, especially since so many of theists' attempts to find things in creation/science that point to a creator God have been so dismal and outright incorrect.  As with lots of things, the fault for failing to know God exists because of his creation is usually on the non-believers of course; our hearts are too hardened, we just want to live by their own rules, and other lame excuses are sometimes offered, along with a bunch of hand-waving to distract from their inability to provide a good sound reason why and how God's existence should be inferred from creation.

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I consider Christianity for the most part to be a pessimistic death cult. 

I agree completely!

[Jodie.Lynne]

5 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

Gotta be the right kind of Christian, the wrong types are obvious, they're the ones that do bad things. Like the other religious serial killers. 

It's funny but whenever someone in the faith does something wrong, the answer is "Well, their not a true  Christian. Makes one wonder if there are actually any true Christians on the planet at all.

[XenoFish]

6 hours ago, rashore said:

Yeah, I'm not fond of the believe or hell thing. I also find the "ignorance is no excuse" thing some folks have irritating. If someone does not even know about a deity, how can they believe or not? And that's pretty awful on the behalf of a deity to punish someone and send them to hell because they didn't know. Like some secluded tribes and native people that may not have even heard of Christianity or it's concepts, and they go to hell because of it. Rather unfair that. And then what about all the people that lived more than 2000 years ago? They all go to hell because the religion hadn't even been invented yet- that's extra unfair.

It's typical cult behavior. The cult of christ.

https://carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult (kind of ironic considering the site it's coming from)

How many of these does a monotheistic religion have.....I think all of them.

https://www.familiesagainstcultteachings.org/Cult-Education/Cult-Warning-Signs/

Here's a few more to go with the above link.

Edited April 16, 2018 by XenoFish

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, JMPD1 said:

It's funny but whenever someone in the faith does something wrong, the answer is "Well, their not a true  Christian. Makes one wonder if there are actually any true Christians on the planet at all.

I don't know. I suppose if you truly lived like Christ you'd be an egotistic a-hole with a god complex.

[Jodie.Lynne]

33 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't know. I suppose if you truly lived like Christ you'd be an egotistic a-hole with a god complex.

and nailed to a tree........

[Davros of Skaro]

Yeah! Why argue?

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

19 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

20 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And if this is true, wouldn't this have almost everyone in the religion? I would think so. I find that bit a bit vague too. How exactly is it all understood? Wouldn't there be misinterpretations? Why are people being told the 'good news', and taught in bible classes, if it's already seen and understood? 

Good questions, especially since so many of theists' attempts to find things in creation/science that point to a creator God have been so dismal and outright incorrect.  As with lots of things, the fault for failing to know God exists because of his creation is usually on the non-believers of course; our hearts are too hardened, we just want to live by their own rules, and other lame excuses are sometimes offered, along with a bunch of hand-waving to distract from their inability to provide a good sound reason why and how God's existence should be inferred from creation.

You see!   Exactly!  

17 hours ago, JMPD1 said:

23 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

Gotta be the right kind of Christian, the wrong types are obvious, they're the ones that do bad things. Like the other religious serial killers. 

It's funny but whenever someone in the faith does something wrong, the answer is "Well, their not a true  Christian. Makes one wonder if there are actually any true Christians on the planet at all.

I wonder about those with that answer, is if they said that to those in the faith that do something wrong, what would the wrong doers say? Would they agree with them? My thinking, or just a distinct feeling would be, I don't think so.