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Bible pulled from online stores in China


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3 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

We don't have to learn them from reliving all the bad parts of history. 

Perhaps in a Modern society where things are more likely to be discussed and recorded, like this, future generations will have greater access to the knowledge we have now. Because China gave us a reason to discuss this on a forum and claim how wrong it is.

Good and bad are subjective

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Just now, Kismit said:

Perhaps in a Modern society where things are more likely to be discussed and recorded, like this, future generations will have greater access to the knowledge we have now. Because China gave us a reason to discuss this.

Good and bad are subjective

I'm still gonna go with this is a bad thing. 

I certainly don't think the bible is without fault, but there's no need to make it worse and use it as a tool to mislead people into submission to authoritarian rule.

I don't think the error should be compounded by doing what we know from history turns out ugly. 

There were plenty of lessons to be learned from the holocaust, but I don't want a repeat.

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1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

I'm still gonna go with this is a bad thing. 

I certainly don't think the bible is without fault, but there's no need to make it worse and use it as a tool to mislead people into submission to authoritarian rule.

I don't think the error should be compounded by doing what we know from history turns out ugly. 

There were plenty of lessons to be learned from the holocaust, but I don't want a repeat.

I will agree with you but I don't think this is holocaust ugly.

Not so much as I feel the Chinese government does more harm by forcing children out of families at early ages to learn gymnastics or similar. The bible, to me, is just a book, what they do with it highlights bigger atrocities. This act when viewed as evidrnce of obvious manipulation may protect others from that same manipulation.

Basically I think we agree, I just don't see it as the epitome of evil that some might sugest.

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10 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And you're thinking the ones who are doing the imprisonment, torture, and killing them, are the ones that should be afraid?! I don't know, being imprisoned, tortured and being killed, seems to be a pretty frightening thing to me. 

For the individuals who are suffering the physical pain, it IS a horrible thing.  They have an eye on eternity, though.  This life is transient and those that cling to it like it's all they'll ever have are the ones who are enslaved.  So, YES, it is the Chinese government that fears any power that they cannot ultimately control.  They can read the lessons of history quite well and they understand the story of Rome and its battle against Christianity.  The greater the persecution, the stronger the growth of the faith.  The believers just attempt to go underground but will die for the faith if need be.

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1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

Believe me...if they find the Bible useful in their quest to control the masses (and they surely should)...they'll keep it.

The masses won't be able to actually read it, but they'll preach to them the Gospel According to WhoeveriscurrentlyrulingChina.

It's a tried and true method but the advent of the internet has changed a lot of these old methods.  The church in Asia is growing faster than anywhere else on the planet.  When I say "church" I mean it in the sense of the believers in Christ, not the corrupt entities that third eye justly points to.  They are not the same group at all.  The Chinese understand this and are taking steps to put a boot on the neck of a group they see getting too far out of line.

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37 minutes ago, and then said:
11 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And you're thinking the ones who are doing the imprisonment, torture, and killing them, are the ones that should be afraid?! I don't know, being imprisoned, tortured and being killed, seems to be a pretty frightening thing to me. 

For the individuals who are suffering the physical pain, it IS a horrible thing.  They have an eye on eternity, though.  This life is transient and those that cling to it like it's all they'll ever have are the ones who are enslaved.  So, YES, it is the Chinese government that fears any power that they cannot ultimately control.  They can read the lessons of history quite well and they understand the story of Rome and its battle against Christianity.  The greater the persecution, the stronger the growth of the faith.  The believers just attempt to go underground but will die for the faith if need be.

I don't know, :no:  It seems the ones receiving the torture and such, are the one's getting the bad deal.

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Chinese censorship isn't really new. I'm not a fan of it, but unfortunately it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I may hate religion, but banning mythology is never a good idea and almost always backfires. Do you want Christians? Because this is how you get a lot more Christians. 

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15 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Who gets to make that decision in China? It shows how China and all dictatorships are still scumbag countries, unworthy of full respect in the modern world. We Americans and peoples of other freedom of thought nations must remember we are only forced to tolerate these type of countries but never condone them. Time and the future is not on the side of their old ways of thought-control. They will lose the intellectual war in the end, and eventually be remembered in history as the flailing of the last dinosaur nations. 

I think it would be foolish to believe that we're immune to that. We the rise of s secularism in the West, people are loosing their right to do a prayer before a public meeting or decorate a Christmas tree in their middle of their cities.. Advocates of secularism request to have religious signs removed, forbid citizens from wearing religious symbols in public ect... We see a movement to push religion out of the public sphere completely.  How far can this go? It's not a strech of the imagination to think that, if these people were forming a government, we might be living in an Anti-religious state.

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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8 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

I think it would be foolish to believe that we're immune to that. We the rise of s secularism in the West, people are loosing their right to do a prayer before a public meeting or decorate a Christmas tree in their middle of their cities.. Advocates of secularism request to have religious signs removed, forbid citizens from wearing religious symbols in public ect... We see a movement to push religion out of the public sphere completely.  How far can this go? It's not a strech of the imagination to think that, if these people were forming a government, we might be living in an Anti-religious state.

With all religious doctrine removed, who gets to decide what is acceptable? The Judeo-Christian faiths are outdated because of the time period they were written but we are quickly forgetting the wisdom in those books that formed the fabric of a free, Western society. They were a common source of moral values we all agreed to abide by, thus keeping the wheels of society turning smoothly. Now that those books are all but ignored, morality has become completely subjective.

Giving hormone blockers to kids because "transphobia" is simply a culmination of this new moral relativism. Pedophilia is next. Now we only view content that agrees with our personal opinions and clearly that is causing chaos and division every where.

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18 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

I think it would be foolish to believe that we're immune to that. We the rise of s secularism in the West, people are loosing their right to do a prayer before a public meeting or decorate a Christmas tree in their middle of their cities.. Advocates of secularism request to have religious signs removed, forbid citizens from wearing religious symbols in public ect... We see a movement to push religion out of the public sphere completely.  How far can this go? It's not a strech of the imagination to think that, if these people were forming a government, we might be living in an Anti-religious state.

I see those things as giving people freedom FROM religion in publicly owned places. I see no restraints added for people’s ability to read, buy books and practice as they see fit in their own sphere. I support both Freedom OF religion and FROM religion.

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42 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

or decorate a Christmas tree in their middle of their cities..

Oh please, dear Earth Mother, protect me from the twinkle of vile Christmas lights on these long, cold, dreary winter nights. Their seemingly cheerful sparkle is a constant reminder that they are all out to get me and I could be struck down at any moment by their evil presence.

:lol:

 

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50 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

Advocates of secularism request to have religious signs removed, forbid citizens from wearing religious symbols in public ect... We see a movement to push religion out of the public sphere completely.  How far can this go? It's not a strech of the imagination to think that, if these people were forming a government, we might be living in an Anti-religious state.

There is a huge difference between eliminating state-sponsored religious expressions, and outlawing religion. I'm an advocate for complete removal of religion from the public sphere, but I'm equally against banning of practice within private homes, temples, etc. Nobody should be able to impose their religion on anyone else, but to outlaw a religion entirely is barbarism. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Do what you want, believe what you want, just keep it out of government and the non-optional public sphere.

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28 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I see those things as giving people freedom FROM religion in publicly owned places. I see no restraints added for people’s ability to read, buy books and practice as they see fit in their own sphere. I support both Freedom OF religion and FROM religion.

:tu: This guy gets it.

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1 minute ago, Podo said:

:tu: This guy gets it.

That's why cities that make big money decorating the entire city in Christmas lights every year have started calling it winter fest. Now they leave them up three months longer.

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31 minutes ago, Michelle said:

That's why cities that make big money decorating the entire city in Christmas lights every year have started calling it winter fest. Now they leave them up three months longer.

As long as it is non-denominational, I'm all for it.

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The Chicoms should give me $10 million. I will produce a documentary that will take the erection out of the Resurrection with no ban needed.

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Limiting religious education to the home is essentially what Russia did. They never completely outlawed religion. They started in the 1920s by seperating religion from being taught in the schools. But, they found plenty of reasons to kill the Christians for talking against the communist state. After world war two the protestant students were targeted to be put into mental hospitals, because, "If they still believe a God exists after atheist reeducation, then they must be mentally ill." Some 25 million people were executed and put in hard labor camps under reasoning like this. So, it starts out small, but the objective is to let it grow to abolish all religion, and all the kings and queens, etc.

So, from my perspective, total freedom of religion makes more sense, because it has never stopped us from advancing before. Freedom of religion and speech, and not limited, or else it starts to mirror the communist system.

Marx repeats in his communist manifesto about how, "No, no, the idea is to keep the women safe," which really shows he had to protect himself because he knew communism looks like an eventual fail for women's protection in his manifesto. It makes him sound like the prince of Persia or Medea in Daniel, that would increase crafts, and preach peace, but really had no interest in keeping the women's rights. Because, the dissolution of marraige and choice is where communism looks to go, even if Marx says that is not the idea, he also said it would come about in peace, which it didn't.

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1 hour ago, Podo said:

Nobody should be able to impose their religion on anyone else, but to outlaw a religion entirely is barbarism. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Do what you want, believe what you want, just keep it out of government and the non-optional public sphere.

 

35 minutes ago, Podo said:

As long as it is non-denominational, I'm all for it.

This is a bit of a contradiction. Should people not be able to put up a manger scene in their front yard, on a public road, or on their business property? Everyone that drives by can see it. It seems this gets pushed further and further every year.

As an atheist, it doesn't harm me in the least. I enjoy seeing people celebrate their various religions and have often participated when invited from pagan to Muslim celebrations.

Am I supposed to be offended simply because I am able to see something like Halloween decorations driving down the road that may or may not signify an occult or some other such nonsense? Are people actually getting that fragile?

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17 minutes ago, Michelle said:

 

This is a bit of a contradiction. Should people not be able to put up a manger scene in their front yard, on a public road, or on their business property? Everyone that drives by can see it. It seems this gets pushed further and further every year.

As an atheist, it doesn't harm me in the least. I enjoy seeing people celebrate their various religions and have often participated when invited from pagan to Muslim celebrations.

Am I supposed to be offended simply because I am able to see something like Halloween decorations driving down the road that may or may not signify an occult or some other such nonsense? Are people actually getting that fragile?

Front yard? Do whatever you want, as long as you follow municipal law in terms of size, noise, etc. Business, it would depend on what the thing is and how big it is, but as long as it doesn't obstruct business or privilege people of the chosen religion, then I don't see an issue. Public roads? Definitely not, as that is public property and therefore not the place for religion of any kind. That's what your lawn is for.

To clarify, by "non-optional public space" I refer to federal and provincial government facilities, and pseudo-government organisations that are not optional, such as driver's license distributors, local health authority, Crown ferry services, etc.

This isn't about offense. I'm not offended by people celebrating their chosen mythology. I don't care if I see religious stuff on lawns, in store windows, etc. I do mind my government buildings sporting religious iconography, my municipal funds and taxes going towards government-sanctioned religious events, and not being able to walk through a PUBLIC space without having someone else's religion everywhere. Religion should be entirely optional. By keeping it out of public spaces and government, it can stay optional.

Edited by Podo
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17 minutes ago, Michelle said:

 

This is a bit of a contradiction. Should people not be able to put up a manger scene in their front yard, on a public road, or on their business property? Everyone that drives by can see it. It seems this gets pushed further and further every year.

As an atheist, it doesn't harm me in the least. I enjoy seeing people celebrate their various religions and have often participated when invited from pagan to Muslim celebrations.

Am I supposed to be offended simply because I am able to see something like Halloween decorations driving down the road that may or may not signify an occult or some other such nonsense? Are people actually getting that fragile?

If the Ten Commandments can be on public grounds? Then a Satanic statue can be there too.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://jezebel.com/oklahoma-removes-ten-commandments-on-capitol-grounds-w-1735155450/amp&ved=2ahUKEwi45_bAj67aAhUS8YMKHdIsC0QQFjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0oAIjual26jk0Fmdu3xsYz&ampcf=1

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2 minutes ago, Podo said:

Public roads? Definitely not, as that is public property and therefore not the place for religion of any kind. That's what your lawn is for.

Now you are starting to get it. My lawn is next to a public highway. So are businesses. If you mean government or city owned property just say so.

 

8 minutes ago, Podo said:

and not being able to walk through a PUBLIC space without having someone else's religion everywhere.

Lots of private property is next to public spaces...including privately owned businesses. I'm not going to waste my time worrying if it's ten feet over the property line from the county courthouse and is on private property. Hence the reason for winter fest when everyone knows it's a Christmas tree. Go and protest the famous Times Square Christmas tree. See how far you'll get. Instead they make a big stink about small municipalities who don't have the money to fight the "Freedom From Religion Foundation".

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Isn't the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade a Christian tradition too? It's unnerving to think the Freedom From Religion Foundation wants to destroy 100 year old traditions.

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11 hours ago, Kismit said:

The freedom experiment is incredibly interesting isn't it.

Where does it begin and end?

With individuals?

With political groups?

With religions?

With political ideaologies?

Should we condemn China or learn from them? Are they bad guys or lessons?

Who knows,? Freedom. I have no idea who's right it is to express it. Or decide right from wrong.

What freedom is for one, is oppression to the other. USA is the beacon of freedom. Ask the native americans about that.

Islam is the religion of peace. Ask other faiths about it.

Christianity is spread by Love. Ask the the unloved ones about it.

Forbiding a religion does not seem right. Keeping an eye on it, nothing wrong with it. 

 

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If they want to encourage atheism they should make a law that everyone has to read the old testament. two reasons, 1 its enough in itself to put anyone of religion and 2. people usually react negatively to things they are forced to read.

Edited by RAyMO
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10 hours ago, and then said:

 

not the corrupt entities that third eye justly points to. 

 

They aren't gods in the Greek or Roman sense but "aspects" of peoples' behavior. 

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