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Still Waters

Teachers in Pennsylvania get baseball bats

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rashore
5 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

How do you teach someone hurting people is wrong when you hurt people to enforce the rules? All that teaches is if you’re bigger, you get to enforce your rules through violence.

Why would punishment have mean hurting or violence? Punishment can also be done without having to even touch the student. There are things like demerits, detention, suspensions, not allowing participation on the sports teams and other extracurricular activities, dances or other fun functions. Calling the parents in for meetings, or even the old punishment of making them write x amount of times “I will not....”, or writing an essay about it.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
9 minutes ago, rashore said:

Why would punishment have mean hurting or violence? Punishment can also be done without having to even touch the student. There are things like demerits, detention, suspensions, not allowing participation on the sports teams and other extracurricular activities, dances or other fun functions. Calling the parents in for meetings, or even the old punishment of making them write x amount of times “I will not....”, or writing an essay about it.

Because the word used was “corporal”. As in “a switch across the back of the legs” not “loss of privileges” or any other form of consequential punishment.

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aztek

a switch across the back of the legs works a lot better than loss of privileges.  what we have today is direct result of not punishing enough, and if it means being a bigger bully to those that deserve it, nothing wrong with that

Edited by aztek

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rashore

Gosh, I just can't find agreement with that. If my mom wanted to do that, that would be one thing- anyone else laying hand was just a big ole heck no. If I was in trouble enough to warrant being threatened with being struck- in for a penny, in for a pound, call my mom out of work and down to the school so she can met that out if she thought it a valid thing to do.

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aztek

do not behave the way that warrants punishment, and you wont be punished, otoh if you do it is not up to your parents to decide if you deserve it,  in fact they deserve some punishment too for raising you that way.

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rashore

I guess maybe you and I were raised differently. My mom made it clear no one was to threaten me that way, and if they did, she was to be called in. The only time I was threatened was due to a bully teacher. 8th grade math- she was very derogatory and cruel to her students. So was her assistant. Due to my mother taking an interest in my education at home, I had advanced to calculus and was at college sophomore level language skills. Teacher took it as a personal insult that I could use advanced math and language skills and wouldn't dumb myself down to her level- or rather the level she thought her "stupid" students should be at. Kept sending me to the office because of it. Then one day I had enough, and told her she was a bully and needed to stop it. That landed me in the office with the threat of a paddling from the principal. I told him no, call my mom. Mom came in and told him no, don't touch my child. My punishment, due to the insistence of the math teacher that this was required, ended up being put through a battery of psychological and intelligence tests and a review of my performance from all my other teachers. And temporary suspension from activities while under evaluation so I missed a school mixer. I passed the tests and reviews with flying colors and she was found to be in the wrong. She and her assistant ended up being under review for the way they treated the students.

So yeah, I just can't agree with corporal punishment in school.

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aztek
Just now, rashore said:

I guess maybe you and I were raised differently. My mom made it clear no one was to threaten me that way, and if they did, she was to be called in.

yes we are,   i was raised to defend myself if attacked, not cry and run to mommy.  same way i raise my kids. they do not bully anyone, (if they do they deserve to be punished)  but they will fight back like pit bulls if attacked.  safe to say their chance of being bullied is very close to 0

 

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aztek
Just now, rashore said:

I guess maybe you and I were raised differently. My mom made it clear no one was to threaten me that way, and if they did, she was to be called in. The only time I was threatened was due to a bully teacher. 8th grade math- she was very derogatory and cruel to her students. So was her assistant. Due to my mother taking an interest in my education at home, I had advanced to calculus and was at college sophomore level language skills. Teacher took it as a personal insult that I could use advanced math and language skills and wouldn't dumb myself down to her level- or rather the level she thought her "stupid" students should be at. Kept sending me to the office because of it. Then one day I had enough, and told her she was a bully and needed to stop it. That landed me in the office with the threat of a paddling from the principal. I told him no, call my mom. Mom came in and told him no, don't touch my child. My punishment, due to the insistence of the math teacher that this was required, ended up being put through a battery of psychological and intelligence tests and a review of my performance from all my other teachers. And temporary suspension from activities while under evaluation so I missed a school mixer. I passed the tests and reviews with flying colors and she was found to be in the wrong. She and her assistant ended up being under review for the way they treated the students.

So yeah, I just can't agree with corporal punishment in school.

what you described here has nothing to do with bulling, protecting against bulling, or being punished for it.    

you basically figured you were too smart for the class, and questioned teachers ability to teach,  and you got burned for it. rightfully so, i must add.   every place (school, army, prison, work, sport team, ....etc.) has it's own ways of doing things.  you were never made aware of those ways.  if you were, and played by rules, (including using rules to your advantage) you would have a lot easier time in school. something i was taught by my parents before i even went to school, and i had no unpleasant experience in school,.  something i teach my kids,   good old saying is just because you can does not mean you should.  as you found out the hard way

Edited by aztek
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rashore
2 hours ago, aztek said:

yes we are,   i was raised to defend myself if attacked, not cry and run to mommy.  same way i raise my kids. they do not bully anyone, (if they do they deserve to be punished)  but they will fight back like pit bulls if attacked.  safe to say their chance of being bullied is very close to 0

 

 

13 minutes ago, aztek said:

what you described here has nothing to do with bulling, protecting against bulling, or being punished for it.    

you basically figured you were too smart for the class, and questioned teachers ability to teach,  and you got burned for it. rightfully so, i must add.   every place (school, army, prison, work, sport team, ....etc.) has it's own ways of doing things.  you were never made aware of those ways.  if you were, and played by rules, (including using rules to your advantage) you would have a lot easier time in school. something i was taught by my parents before i even went to school, and i had no unpleasant experience in school,.  something i teach my kids,   good old saying is just because you can does not mean you should.  as you found out the hard way

Interesting spin there. The teacher and her assistant were mentally and physically abusing all the students, several of them got it way worse than I did. Not punishing due to doing something wrong, but doing things just because they liked to. And literally told us we were just stupid children and to not say anything about it. Very derogatory and cruel. I just happened to be an educated student that didn't want to see that kind of bullying behavior continue, either for myself or others. Instead of responding with violence myself when confronted with violence, especially being a minor without any real legal rights, I opted to call upon my mom who legally as an adult could speak up on my behalf and defend me against further violence.

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aztek
Just now, rashore said:

 

Interesting spin there. The teacher and her assistant were mentally and physically abusing all the students, several of them got it way worse than I did. Not punishing due to doing something wrong, but doing things just because they liked to. And literally told us we were just stupid children and to not say anything about it. Very derogatory and cruel. I just happened to be an educated student that didn't want to see that kind of bullying behavior continue, either for myself or others. Instead of responding with violence myself when confronted with violence, especially being a minor without any real legal rights, I opted to call upon my mom who legally as an adult could speak up on my behalf and defend me against further violence.

well that is your side of the story.  i'd love to hear theirs.

i had teachers who used strong language in school, i do not see it as bulling, what we did to them was a lot worst. now i see it, but when i was in school i had no clue, nor we cared

 

 

Edited by aztek

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Sir Wearer of Hats
6 hours ago, aztek said:

a switch across the back of the legs works a lot better than loss of privileges.  what we have today is direct result of not punishing enough, and if it means being a bigger bully to those that deserve it, nothing wrong with that

Congratulations, you’ve just taught an already prone to violence child that you enforce your rules through violence. You’ve taught them that if you get caught, you get hurt therefore you don’t get caught so that escalates the intimidation and type of violence they would use. You’ve taught them that if you’re bigger, you use violence to get your own way. What you’ve not taught them is to not be violent. You’ve show a consequence but not given them any reason to change their behaviour, instead you’ve just incentivised not getting caught.

Rule by Fear is the first tool of the fascist. 

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aztek
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Congratulations, you’ve just taught an already prone to violence child that you enforce your rules through violence. You’ve taught them that if you get caught, you get hurt therefore you don’t get caught so that escalates the intimidation and type of violence they would use. You’ve taught them that if you’re bigger, you use violence to get your own way. What you’ve not taught them is to not be violent. You’ve show a consequence but not given them any reason to change their behaviour, instead you’ve just incentivised not getting caught.

Rule by Fear is the first tool of the fascist. 

i taught mentally stable kid to always defend himself, and not to become a victim,  you have to be really desperate to  tie that to bullying and nazis.,  face it your approach fails, that is why we are where we are.  feel free to teach your kids to be victims, and not to stand up for themselves. 

you know what else i teach them, not to stand up for those who are being bullied, you know why?  not because i'm such an evil ahole, but because it only makes thing  worst for those kids, i teach them things based on reality, not wishful thinking. they may be small, and world around them seems small, but it just as cruel as adult world, even more so. so my kids are prepared for it, just as i was when my parents prepared me for real world

 

Edited by aztek

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Sir Wearer of Hats
20 minutes ago, aztek said:

i taught mentally stable kid to always defend himself, and not to become a victim,  you have to be really desperate to  tie that to bullying and nazis.,  face it your approach fails, that is why we are where we are.  feel free to teach your kids to be victims, and not to stand up for themselves. 

you know what else i teach them, not to stand up for those who are being bullied, you know why?  not because i'm such an evil ahole, but because it only makes thing  worst for those kids, i teach them things based on reality, not wishful thinking. they may be small, and world around them seems small, but it just as cruel as adult world, even more so. so my kids are prepared for it, just as i was when my parents prepared me for real world

 

No, there is a world of difference between teaching a kid to stand up for themselves and an adult hitting a child in order to punish them. 

Corporal Punishiment is rule by fear - stay in line or an adult will assault you. And it is assault, just because the victim is a child and you’re doing it “for their own good” doesn’t stop it being assault. There is a vast amount of research that shows the bullied often become the bullies when they get the chance. All corporal punishment does is teach that violence is the answer, violence is how you enforce your rules, violence is how you get your own way.

Edited by Sir Wearer of Hats

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aztek
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

No, there is a world of difference between teaching a kid to stand up for themselves and an adult hitting a child in order to punish them. 

spanking does wonders, (not just spanking itself, but punishment on the spot, swift and painful)  we see what happens now, and how things were before. when spanking was normal.  a world of difference.

you really need to see our schools for yourself before you throw nazi accusations at me.,

Edited by aztek
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Sir Wearer of Hats
Just now, aztek said:

spanking does wonders, we see what happens now, and how things were before. when spanking was normal.  a world of difference.

you really need to see our schools for yourself before you throw nazi accusations at me.,

SEE THEM?

I work in them. Every day I deal with the broken frightened little children whose parents never hesitate to “punish” them for their mistakes. Every day I face down bullies. I cool hot tempers. I try and build a better world. THE MOMENT I become the bully in order to “impose discipline” or “punish” a child, that’s the moment school stops being safe. It stops bring a place of learning and freedom and just becomes another place to be feared.

and yes, anyone who would strike a child in order to “discipline” them is a bully. Would you hit me to discipline me? 

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aztek
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

 

Corporal Punishiment is rule by fear -

yes, and it works.

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aztek
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

. Would you hit me to discipline me? 

would not have any problem doing so if your actions warrant it,    

 

Edited by aztek

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Sir Wearer of Hats
Just now, aztek said:

would not have any problem doing so if your actions warrant it

 

That would be criminal assault.

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aztek
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

That would be criminal assault.

not if i do it right

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Sir Wearer of Hats
2 minutes ago, aztek said:

yes, and it works.

Horse Hockey.

all it does is turn people you should trust into the enemy. I’ve dealt with all sorts of behaviours, all sort of nasty little things done by children. I’ve come up with all sorts of consequences to be suffered for those behaviours, not a once have I ever seen a situation where assautling a child would be the best option. Admittedly not all of those consequences worked, but we teachers found others. And not one was “let’s hit that child in order to make them obey us”. 

Because violence as the tool of control is fascist.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
Just now, aztek said:

not if i do it right

And what pray is the right way to assault someone?

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aztek
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

And what pray is the right way to assault someone?

there is a different approach to every situation.

actually watch a video i posted before,  it is there, how to legally spank misbehaving kids.

Edited by aztek

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aztek
Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

 

Because violence as the tool of control is fascist.

right , that is why every gvmnt uses it. arms police, and  gives them basically license to kill,   fear is the best way to control, like it or not.  entire human history is build on that.  yet lately we started thinking other wise, like you think, and world gotten a lot worst,  so thanks, but no thanks

Edited by aztek

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internetperson

Corporal punishment is a blanket term. We had it when I was in high school but it was a joke. Basically, you could have a saturday detention/suspension (meaning not have to show up for school? what a joke) or you could choose the corporal punishment which was a 'paddle' (it had some weight to it) and you got swatted 3 times, it was actually called 'swats.' Everyone chose it because it was a few seconds of pain vs a half of day of picking up trash on a saturday. I chose it at every opportunity possible. It was no big deal and left no marks unlike when my father did it. And that's the thing, my father wouldn't beat me out of anger, he'd draw the line and if I crossed it I knew the punishment. I never held it against him and I thank god for the way he raised me. He always explained everything to me why it was happening and how he didn't take joy out of it. 

And again I agree with aztek about the bullying thing. If you're in high school and someone has you on the ground and is pounding your face in they wont stop if you scream you're gonna tell. You have to stand up and blast them in the chin as hard as you can. From there on out that bully knows you're not the one to be messed with. I didn't go to a rough school necessarily but if you went on the 'telling' route then you may as well stamp the word 'victim' on your head and you'll be targeted. A lot of kids grow up w/o morals and don't care about punishment and see that as a way of life, especially if punishment equals detention. They just won't show up and then continue to target those who don't stand up for themselves. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats
6 hours ago, aztek said:

right , that is why every gvmnt uses it. arms police, and  gives them basically license to kill,   fear is the best way to control, like it or not.  entire human history is build on that.  yet lately we started thinking other wise, like you think, and world gotten a lot worst,  so thanks, but no thanks

Yes it is. But than again,  your entire country was built on slavery, mine on attempted genocide. Doesn’t make those things right either. 

I’ve taught hundreds of children who I never struck in order to control. I’ve taught them to stand up for themselves with their words and their deeds. I’ve taught thrm to respect authority that they think deserves respect and I’ve taught them how to change that if they don’t like it, all without the resort to either violence or the threat of violence. I’ve taught them how to think for themselves and not blindly obey out of fear. 

Why does that scare you? Why does people refusing to blindly follow orders scare you? What drives you to resort to wanting to impose fear in order to impose control?

You think the world has gone to hell and kids are disrespectful? Maybe that’s because they don’t see the reason to be respectful because they’re not being respected, or maybe it’s because they’re just the same as they’ve always been and they’ve just gotten a platform to be heard being themselves.

You want to see children being respectful? Give them respect, show them trust. 

You want to see children following rules? Show them why the rules need to be followed.

You don’t need to smack a child in order to teach them right from wrong. You don’t need to smack a child in order to teach them not to touch a stove. Or to wear sunscreen. Or to listen to their parents. 

 

 

There is a precident to all that. Jesus Christ. He didn’t beat his followers in order to make them listen. He didn’t brawl with the Pharisees. He didn’t rant and rave. He didn’t advocate leading through intimidation. He didn’t 

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