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rashore

Real Magic by Dean Radin

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rashore
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Dean Radin, Ph.D., has pursued the most mind-boggling fringes of science — ESP, telepathy, and other wonders — earnestly and with excellence for decades. He is the chief scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (link is external) (IONS) in Petaluma, CA, a next-level research and educational organization founded by the late astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell. Dr. Radin also worked on the United States government's top-secret psychic espionage program, known as Stargate. 

His new book, Real Magic (link is external) (Harmony, April 10), is a triumph of an open mind over limitations. As his publisher points out, what was magic 2,000 years ago is scientific fact today. No less than Brian Josephson, Nobel Laureate in Physics and Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of Cambridge, calls it, "A thought-provoking book. The author makes a convincing case for the reality and significance of magic.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sensorium/201803/real-magic

Dr. Dean Radin Brings Real Magic to the Psi Lab: http://skeptiko.com/dean-radin-brings-real-magic-to-the-psi-lab-377/

 

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XenoFish

It'll never end.

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Piney

Noetic sciences......yay

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XenoFish

I really should write a book on magick.:lol:

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Piney
Just now, XenoFish said:

I really should write a book on magick.:lol:

It would sell, no kidding! :tu:

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

It would sell, no kidding! :tu:

I just need Oprah to endorse it. Fill it with the same recycled stuff as every "get something for nothing" book out there.

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rashore

Lol, kind of figured you two would get enjoyment out of this topic. I hope others do as well.

And Xeno.. I think it would make for an interesting read indeed if you wrote up your knowledge in book form.

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Piney
44 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I just need Oprah to endorse it. Fill it with the same recycled stuff as every "get something for nothing" book out there.

If Oprah endorsed the head of the KKK who wrote a fictional biography of himself, she would endorse anybody.

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crookedspiral

Dean Radin is a great mind, a research scientist. Skeptics have a tendency to underestimate him because of his interests in fringe topics.

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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XenoFish
On 4/12/2018 at 12:25 PM, rashore said:

Lol, kind of figured you two would get enjoyment out of this topic. I hope others do as well.

And Xeno.. I think it would make for an interesting read indeed if you wrote up your knowledge in book form.

There wouldn't be much to it. Other than the stuff I already post for free. 

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ChrLzs
On 4/15/2018 at 2:56 PM, Clockwork_Spirit said:

Dean Radin is a great mind, a research scientist. Skeptics have a tendency to underestimate him because of his interests in fringe topics.

May I ask which of his studies/papers best shows his great mind?   I don't mean an entire book - let's focus on an actual example of his work, and let's look at how it stands up.  I've only looked at one in detail.. and it didn't stand up at all.

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psyche101
14 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

May I ask which of his studies/papers best shows his great mind?   I don't mean an entire book - let's focus on an actual example of his work, and let's look at how it stands up.  I've only looked at one in detail.. and it didn't stand up at all.

I was going to ask the same thing. As far as I know the best work all his research has culminated in is Men Who Stare at Goats 

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GlitterRose
7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I was going to ask the same thing. As far as I know the best work all his research has culminated in is Men Who Stare at Goats 

That was a fun read.

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ChrLzs

Clockwork Spirit, are you not returning to discuss Dean Radin's actual work?  I promise to be as polite as is possible...

If you are nervous about picking his 'best' work, (and that nervousness would be quite sensible), I'd suggest you might want to take a look here, for some examples that you might wish to avoid...

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22973

Yes, it's a skeptics page, but it actually goes through some of these 'studies' (none of which have made it into credible journals, and that's not because of 'unfair' rejection..), and note that aside from the procedural/methodology issues -even in what might be claimed as the most supportive studies - the effects are barely beyond random.  The studies make no claim of 'proof', instead suggesting that further more rigorous studies are needed.  On the very few occasions such studies are done, they show either less (or no) statistical significance.  Dare I suggest that as you apply proper controls, the cheating (some of which is not deliberate) stops.

 

Note that I shall be returning to continue the Rupert Sheldrake book review thread shortly:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/313864-review-sheldrakes-dogs-who-know-when/

- as Radin is often mentioned in conjunction with Sheldrake, interested readers are invited to join in....

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psyche101
13 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

That was a fun read.

And a good movie :)

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crookedspiral
4 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Clockwork Spirit, are you not returning to discuss Dean Radin's actual work?  I promise to be as polite as is possible...

If you are nervous about picking his 'best' work, (and that nervousness would be quite sensible), I'd suggest you might want to take a look here, for some examples that you might wish to avoid...

We have been there. I know Dean Radin to be an incredibly intelligent man, from having read most of his books and listened to some of his lectures. I don't need your approval. He has published many papers on parapsychological studies, even if I pick one and post it here, you are going to dismiss it no matter what. You have made up your mind and nothing is going to change that. So what is the point of engaging in such a futile exercise, pray?

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit
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ChrLzs
1 hour ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

We have been there. I know Dean Radin to be an incredibly intelligent man

And that should be good enough, no matter what the quality of his work?

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 from having read most of his books and listened to some of his lectures.

If you have expertise in the field, eg of proper testing methodology, you should then be able to pick a really good example of his work.

If you DON'T have that expertise (and there's no shame in that), then that would explain why you would be (wisely) unwilling to do so.  But if you don't have expertise, then there is rather less reason to just take your word that he's a genius....

So, I'd suggest you pick that proverbial best example of his work, or wear the rather obvious inference. I'll be happy to pick one if you refuse, but then don't complain if my choice turns out to be a really bad example...

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I don't need your approval.

This isn't about approval - this is a discussion forum, one where we look at the facts and evidence and how it was gathered.  If in doing so we find faults, then you are welcome to pick holes in our complaints and point out where we go wrong.  If you or your fellow Radin fans can't.. then would you not agree that it is probably Radin who went wrong..?

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He has published many papers on parapsychological studies

Then just cite one of his best - one that shows significant statistical evidence for any sort of 'real magic' or paranormal abilities on the basis of properly collected and documented data.  Look, I'm not even asking that it be published by a credible journal - I'm happy to go through it with you in detail and point out the concerns, no matter what the source.  Can I possibly be fairer than that?  Shouldn't you be relishing the chance to show how I'm wrong and Radin's right?  There are some quite simple concepts involved here, concepts that are designed to ensure that studies are done fairly, logically, and that the possibility of cheating is eliminated or at least minimised.  I'll explain them as we go, so you can dispute them if you can..  Now if Radin didn't follow those concepts, then wouldn't you agree that he might just be suckering the gullible (and or himself?)?  Perhaps walking in the steps of J.B. Rhine?  (Shall I elaborate?)

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even if I pick one and post it here, you are going to dismiss it no matter what.

Don't tell me in advance what I'm going to do from your fantasy land... I'm going to go through it in detail with a fine tooth comb and explain in simple terms where the errors are, if any.  If you can't argue those errors away, then it seems to me to be clear that it's *you* that has the 'dismissive' approach...  The word hypocrisy springs to mind...

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You have made up your mind and nothing is going to change that. So what is the point of engaging in such a futile exercise, pray?

Re-read my previous paragraph - over and over until you understand it.  If I'm the one willing to examine the study in detail (one of your choosing), and yet you are running for the hills refusing to engage in discussion, then who is it that has made up their mind, pray?

 

 

Added PS, I note everything old is new again...

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/293088-the-james-randi-1m-challenge-terminated/?do=findComment&comment=5809350

At least, back then, Truthseeker aka Clockwork Spirit was right that Radin wasn't the subject of the thread.  But here, he is...

Edited by ChrLzs
meny spelun erers
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ChrLzs

While we wait forlornly and probably in vain for a response..... are you OK out there, Clock Spirit aka TruthSeeker?

I'm going to choose a study.  NOT a 'metastudy' (and I'll explain in horrific detail later why that is, but I think most will already know...).  And what better way than to choose a Dean Radin study - one of HIS selections?

Anyone like to follow my journey?  If not, stop reading. :D

 

So, I went to his website.  And interestingly, I found this:

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Critics are fond of saying that there is no scientific evidence for psi. They wave their fist in the air and shout, "Show me the evidence!" Then they turn red and have a coughing fit. In less dramatic cases a student  might be genuinely curious and open-minded, but unsure where to begin to find reliable evidence about psi. Google knows all and sees all, but it doesn't know how to interpret or evaluate what it knows (at least not yet).

In the past, my response to the "show me" challenge has been to give the titles of a few books to read, point to the bibliographies in those books, and advise the person to do their homework. I still think that this is the best approach for a beginner tackling a complex topic. But given the growing expectation that information on  virtually any topic ought to be available online within 60 seconds, traditional methods of scholarship are disappearing fast.

 

Wow.  So Dean suggests that beginners should go read some books (one would rightly guess that would mean his books in particular).  Ie, not read credible science journals where the information has been vetted, but instead just .. believe!!!

OK, let's give the guy some slack here - after all, proper scientific papers can be quite heavy going..  And he goes on to say this:

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So I've created a SHOW ME page with downloadable articles on psi and psi-related topics, all published in peer-reviewed journals. Most of these papers were published after the year 2000. Most report experimental studies or meta-analyses of  classes of experiments. I will continue to add to this page and flesh it out, including links to recent or to especially useful ebooks.

Interestingly, he doesn't talk about the credibility of the Journals or ways to determine that, nor the dangers of meta-analyses (more on that later).  Seems he might want those beginners to stay gullib beginners...  Otherwise they might not buy any more of his books...

So, I went to the "show me" page and took a quick look.  I was hoping to keep on the most popular topics, eg telepathy/ESP, but as I browsed down that section of the list, nothing by Dean Radin appeared.  I did find a few by Rupert Sheldrake.. but the one I opened was from the JSE (Journal of Science Exploration).  I did say CREDIBLE journals... :td:

Anyway, I'll pause there - and give Clock or anyone else the chance to chime in (see what i did there?) - can you point to an actual study done by Radin (or anyone for that matter), that is properly done, not a metastudy or compilation, and that includes all the necessary documentation (especially where any judging is subjective, like getting 'matches' for allegedly remote-viewed pictures).  You know, one that is:
- properly done
- does conclude that there is a definite effect

 

Anyone?  If you remain silent, don't come back and complain about any choice I make....

 

Edited by ChrLzs
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Seven11
Posted (edited)

I like Dean Radin. Read a couple of his books, cool **** if you ask me. He put a sigil on the last page. Can’t figure out what it may allude to.

Edited by Seven11
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Tatetopa
On 4/25/2018 at 11:46 PM, ChrLzs said:

Anyone?  If you remain silent, don't come back and complain about any choice I make....

I haven't read anything that seems conclusive about the existence of psi.  You are right, a lot of them are meta studies hoping to glean  meaningful statistics from a larger, if albeit slightly non-homogeneous population.

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crystal sage

I totally respect the organization he is a part of..  https://noetic.org/science/ 

We know that Psi exists.. yet it is hard for scientists etc. to repeat most of these experiences. 

Think in terms of  spiritual manifestations that billions of people have claimed to encounter over thousands of years. How can we prove that they did experience, see what they saw? 

Can we create an experiment where we  any scientific group of researchers can repeatedly  recreate  the experience or exactly the same manifestation  at the same place at will? 

No I do not think so. So therefore according to scientific principles/rules  these manifestations  are not officially exist. 

 

:) but we are getting close to proving that consciousness can exist outside the body.. we are getting closer to proving telepathy with FMRI machines.

The placebo and nocebo effect and distant healing seem to be interlinked.

 There is lots of amazing research being done with this organization to try and find ways to measure what has previously been thought of as immeasurable.. 

 

http://www.williamjames.com/transcripts/harman1.htm

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ChrLzs
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, crystal sage said:

I totally respect the organization he is a part of..  https://noetic.org/science/ 

As a person who may not be a scientist, but has worked closely with a whole bunch of really good ones..  I do NOT respect that organisation, as it was set up to promote bad science, ie it happily accepts experiments and studies that are horribly flawed and as you admit yourself, not repeatable!!!

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We know that Psi exists..

What makes you think you speak for all?  Don't be ridiculous.  I've not seen any decent evidence of same.

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yet it is hard for scientists etc. to repeat most of these experiences.

Yes, because the demonstrations are easily faked or the experiments are badly designed.  Thing is, I'm happy to be specific...

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Think in terms of  spiritual manifestations that billions of people have claimed to encounter over thousands of years. How can we prove that they did experience, see what they saw?

From a religious and cultural and entertainment point of view, there is clearly plenty of justification for fakery, self delusion, crowd hysteria and a whole pile of other reasons for the false reports,.  And do not lie about there being 'billions'.

Indeed, I challenge you to NOT give us a list, but give us the very best evidenced example you know of.  Don't be shy - just give us one really good example, and I'll happily explain how you (or they) got tricked.

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Can we create an experiment where we  any scientific group of researchers can repeatedly  recreate  the experience or exactly the same manifestation  at the same place at will?

Yes, we certainly can for mundane, evidenced events, in fact that is what every accepted mainstream study/report/paper is.  Exactly that.

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So therefore according to scientific principles/rules  these manifestations  are not officially exist. 

Yes.  Correctly.  Up until a decently evidenced and repeatable 'manifestation' comes along.  Feel free to supply one.  One only, please - let's start with the very best and you can then work your way down if you like...

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:) but we are getting close to proving that consciousness can exist outside the body.. we are getting closer to proving telepathy with FMRI machines.

Really? - citation please.  If all you mean is that we are getting close to understanding and detecting 'thoughts' - which we have pretty much always known are electrical in nature, that is NOT telepathy and you know it.

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The placebo and nocebo effect

Understood and irrelevant.

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and distant healing seem to be interlinked.

Be specific.  What do you mean?  Citation please.

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 There is lots of amazing research being done with this organization to try and find ways to measure what has previously been thought of as immeasurable..

Again, point out the best example . Don't be shy.

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That's just a lengthy word salad interview, full of handwaves and non-specifics.  How is this relevant, other than the (as usual) lame claim that Quantum Theory (somehow) explains magical things like telepathy.  It doesn't, nor does it offer a mechanism that could, as anyone who properly understands the topic knows.

The more important thing is that if it were true that, say, telepathy exists, it would be dead easy to test, and it would be repeatable.  Then we could start looking at what mechanism might be involved.  But NO-ONE has ever shown telepathy or psi or remote viewing, etc, etc actually exists.

 

Like I said, I'm happy to be very specific and explain the huge gaping flaws in the testing methodologies that allow these scammers to push their wares.  And how much fairer can I be than allowing you to pick whatever you think is the best example?

Edited by ChrLzs
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crystal sage

  I will offer sections of evidence  over time.. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/07/this-inventor-is-developing-technology-that-could-enable-telepathy.html

The very fact that they can control thoughts or that there are now technological  instruments that voice thoughts, means that they can also  scientifically test for mind reading.. telepathy only I gather once this idea  of this ability became obvious, people became uncomfortable with this. https://www.computerworld.com/article/3268132/mind-reading-tech-is-here-and-more-useful-than-you-think.html

 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/27/15077864/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-computer-interface-ai-cyborgs

https://www.businesslive.co.za/fm/fm-fox/digital/2019-02-07-neuro-engineers-make-breakthrough-in-mind-reading-technology/

Using this technology they can also record whether any form of telepathy is taking place as well and actually validate telepathic claims. 

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