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Kota

What about Lilith...

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Kota

So, according to certain scriptures, Eve was not the first woman, Lilith was. She was created at the same time and same manner as Adam but refused to submit to him, leading to her leaving the garden of eden and long story short becoming a demon.

Why is she so rarely mentioned??

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Krater
Posted (edited)

The myth of Lilith was first construed around the year 200-400CE (not as old as even the New Testament) and she was depicted as a female demon. It wasn't until 700-1000CE that she was portrayed as Adams first wife in a Jewish satire (comedy).

Short answer: even in the Jewish and Christian faiths, she is 100% fictional/made up/not real.

Edited by Krater
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Orphalesion

Also the one time she's mentioned in the Bible, the passage actually refers to an owl.

I also don't think Lilith is "so rarely". She is pretty frequently referenced in art and media and has been a popular character since the Romantic movement. She's appears in Faust by Goethe, was a favourite of Romantic and Pre-Raphaelite painters and poets, in the World of Darkness she's the mother of vampires (together with Cain) she appears in every single modern fiction that aims to subvert the Abrahamic creation myth.

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Hello Davros Kitty

She's a myth, and late on the scene.

Or is she?

 

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Piney
5 hours ago, Kota said:

So, according to certain scriptures, Eve was not the first woman, Lilith was. She was created at the same time and same manner as Adam but refused to submit to him, leading to her leaving the garden of eden and long story short becoming a demon.

Why is she so rarely mentioned??

In the original pre- Old Testament Proto-Semite story. There was no Adam. Just Eve and her snake which taught her the use of nature. Adam was added later by chauvinists.

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eight bits

@davros of skaro

Mmm... more like this, I think

 

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GlitterRose

Rarely mentioned?

She gets a whole fair.

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Doug1o29
8 hours ago, Krater said:

The myth of Lilith was first construed around the year 200-400CE (not as old as even the New Testament) and she was depicted as a female demon. It wasn't until 700-1000CE that she was portrayed as Adams first wife in a Jewish satire (comedy).

Short answer: even in the Jewish and Christian faiths, she is 100% fictional/made up/not real.

Like the rest of religion isn't mostly "fictional/made up/not real."

There are lots of stories that have been made up to fill in/explain parts of the Bible that aren't complete.  Example:  Moses had a speech impediment.  Why else did he need to have Aaron speak to the people for him?  According to the tale, as a baby he popped a live coal into his mouth, burning himself and rendering himself unable to speak properly.

But don't feel bad about "made up" stories.  They substitute for real knowledge.

Doug

 

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Doug1o29
9 hours ago, Kota said:

So, according to certain scriptures, Eve was not the first woman, Lilith was. She was created at the same time and same manner as Adam but refused to submit to him, leading to her leaving the garden of eden and long story short becoming a demon.

Why is she so rarely mentioned??

There are quite a few scriptures that date from later.  The Gospel of Nicodemus dates from the third century and reads like a transcript of Jesus' trial.  There are even redactions dating to the fifth century - contemporary with King Arthur.  These later "gospels" and other writings provide alternate views of scripture.  Lillith is one of these.  As such, the story is no more (or less) valid than the original Bible and should be regarded as part of Holy Scripture.

Doug

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Guyver
13 hours ago, Kota said:

So, according to certain scriptures, Eve was not the first woman, Lilith was. She was created at the same time and same manner as Adam but refused to submit to him, leading to her leaving the garden of eden and long story short becoming a demon.

Why is she so rarely mentioned??

It's because the scriptures are usually considered the bible writings, and Lilith is not found in the bible.  What other works do you consider scriptures?

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Doug1o29
42 minutes ago, Guyver said:

It's because the scriptures are usually considered the bible writings, and Lilith is not found in the bible.  What other works do you consider scriptures?

Gospel of Nicodemus, Gospel of Adam, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, Dead Sea Scrolls, writings of Justin the Martyr, Josephus, Artapanus, Jerome, Clement of Rome, Philo of Alexandria, Eusebius, Seneca and others I can't remember any more.

Go back 400 years farther and there's Herodotus.

Virtually any ancient writing.

Doug 

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Krater
2 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

Virtually any ancient writing.

Scripture generally refers to religious text. Certainly within the context of the original post. "Virtually any ancient writing"? Ha! Whatever you say, chief.

 

8 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

Like the rest of religion isn't mostly "fictional/made up/not real."

 

That's why I said "even in the Jewish and Christian faiths". 

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docyabut2
Posted (edited)
Quote

She was a  belief in a  Mother`s earth, not a Father `s.

 

Edited by docyabut2

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Stubbly_Dooright
12 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Rarely mentioned?

She gets a whole fair.

Despite growing up secular, I hadn't realized the existence of someone before Eve, until I heard about the Indigo Girls producing the "Lillith Fair". And why, they named it the way they did. But, her being a demon didn't come up in that conversation. :blink: 

 

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Jodie.Lynne
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Piney said:

In the original pre- Old Testament Proto-Semite story. There was no Adam. Just Eve and her snake which taught her the use of nature. Adam was added later by chauvinists.

Yeah, I think I saw that vid of lilith and her "snake" on an adult vid channel.......... I only watched it for, uh, historical context. Yeah, that's it.

Edited by JMPD1
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Jodie.Lynne
2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Despite growing up secular, I hadn't realized the existence of someone before Eve, until I heard about the Indigo Girls producing the "Lillith Fair". And why, they named it the way they did. But, her being a demon didn't come up in that conversation. :blink: 

 

It was an allegorical tale, added much later. For not submitting to Adam as her 'superior', she was banished from the garden and descended to demonhood. A lesson to women everywhere to "keep their place."  PFFFFT! 

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Lumpino
On 17. 4. 2018 at 7:12 AM, Kota said:

So, according to certain scriptures, Eve was not the first woman, Lilith was. She was created at the same time and same manner as Adam but refused to submit to him, leading to her leaving the garden of eden and long story short becoming a demon.

Why is she so rarely mentioned??

In Jewish Kabblala is Lilith the first wife of Adam. And a night demon.
In Babylonian myth is Lilith a night demon from eastern deserts. But friendly to people.

Interesting is a comparison with Tibet. See for example Journey to Tibet by Ippolito Desideri.
In Tibetan myths is a night demon from eastern deserts Brag srin mo, a wife of the first man and a mother of mankind.

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eight bits
23 hours ago, Piney said:

In the original pre- Old Testament Proto-Semite story. There was no Adam. Just Eve and her snake which taught her the use of nature. Adam was added later by chauvinists.

I was thinking of the Enkidu origin story in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Not so much the situation (Enkidu is very much NOT the "first man," and the temple prostitute is HIS first woman, not THE first woman), but the basic characterizations.

Enkidu was created whole by a goddess from clay, placed by her in the wild where he becomes a companion of wild beasts. He is then civilized by a temple prostitute, finally becoming the gay-adventure-fantasy lover of King Gilgamesh (Robin to Batman, only between equals). Somebody cleaned up the gay icon a lot for monotheist consumption, but Adam is largely the same character, just straight (and in the canon, a one-woman man at that).

When the temple prostitute is through with Enkidu (so the "fruit" in that story is simply a man and a woman having straight sex - six days' worth), he ceases to be a wild man and becomes civilized. He begins to wear clothes (he borrows half of her outfit, take that however you like).

His "fall" is that the wild animals, who used to be his companions, now flee from him. On the other hand, he has gained his place in human society. The prostitute praises his wisdom (a trait parallel to the Hebrew idiom, "knowledge of good and evil"), and tells him flat out that he has become like a god. The idea that to gain something you often must give up something is foundational to the human condition, and also underlies the plot in the Eden story.

If you strip away a trait Lilith acquired from a demon (killer of infants), then the story arc of the woman Lilith has much in common with Enkidu's first consort (not least that the gentleman, after his sexual initiation, wants a different partner to spend the rest of his life with).

If Enkidu morphs into Adam, then the temple prostitute populates the rest of the Eden story. She is the Woman, she is the Serpent and she provides her share of the Fruit. She's even a little bit of God (corroborator of the truth of what the Serpent says, provider of clothes, and explainer of Enkidu's exile from his former habitat). The woman who is wise like a serpent ends up in our time as Lilith (plus a hateful demon part, lest we admire her), while the woman of the fruit part ends up as Goodwife Eve. God buds off into his own character, as he must in a monotheism, and Serpent is the glue that holds the new constellation together. (And if Adam is gay, then that's too bad, because he's the only boy around; so there.)

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GlitterRose
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lumpino said:

In Jewish Kabblala is Lilith the first wife of Adam. And a night demon.
In Babylonian myth is Lilith a night demon from eastern deserts. But friendly to people.

Interesting is a comparison with Tibet. See for example Journey to Tibet by Ippolito Desideri.
In Tibetan myths is a night demon from eastern deserts Brag srin mo, a wife of the first man and a mother of mankind.

I thought the myths were she wandered around causing miscarriages and being a succubus or something like that. 

Edited by ChaosRose

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LightAngel

There are many different interpretations about Lilith.

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Doug1o29
14 hours ago, Krater said:

Scripture generally refers to religious text. Certainly within the context of the original post. "Virtually any ancient writing"? Ha! Whatever you say, chief.

Most of those are religious texts.  Even the ones that aren't specifically "religious" refer to religious practices.  Like "Egeria - Diary of a Pilgrim" which records an Easter service in the late fifth century.  And Herodotus' description of a festival at Bubastis.

Doug

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third_eye

And also the much passed over Clementine Ante Nicene 'Fathers'  ...
 

Quote

 

~

The Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down to A. D. ...

Alexander Roberts - 2007 - ‎Religion

Surely, it is a noble exercise of mind and heart to see, in the splendid result of the Ante-Nicene conflicts with error, and in the enduring truth and perennial freshness of the Nicene Creed, the fulfilment of the promise of the Great Head of the Church, that the Spirit should abide with them for ever, and guide them into all truth.

~

Oct 8, 2009 - Surely, it is a noble exercise of mind and heart to see, in the splendid result of the Ante-Nicene conflicts with error, and in the enduring truth and perennial freshness of the Nicene Creed, the fulfilment of the promise of the Great Head of the Church, that the Spirit should abide with them for ever, and guide ...
 
~

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol VII: Early Liturgies: Introductory Notice

www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/007/0070479.htm

The whole science is in its infancy; and we have no specimen of a primitive liturgy unless it be the Clementine, so called. ... Earnest and worthy of respect as they are, I must therefore prefer a class of writers who breathe the spirit of the ante-Nicene Fathers as better elucidating the primitive epoch and its principles, alike in ...

~

 

 

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Coil
On 17.04.2018 at 8:12 AM, Kota said:

So, according to certain scriptures, Eve was not the first woman, Lilith was. She was created at the same time and same manner as Adam but refused to submit to him, leading to her leaving the garden of eden and long story short becoming a demon.

Why is she so rarely mentioned??

 

She will play another destructive role when  gives birth to the Antichrist and will continue to rule with him on the earth, arranging large-scale orgies until he is killed. Then she will return to the level of demons again. Thanks to her and the priest of Nergal, the demon race multiplied quickly . Now she can not go to the physical level because she has been deprived of the divine attributes given out by the will of Satan and the time is not yet suitable.
Nevertheless, Lillith influences our level, for example,  industrial music and girls' clothes. Respirators on the face, false colored hair, dark clothes, thorns, primitive music for the feet and hands are all the attributes of Lillit at the level of hell that penetrate our world. It is a pity that we do not recognize the source of inspiration, this is preparation for coming to our world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIyHypvse-0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yL-ihQBdZs

 

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DRAGYN RAKEN
Posted (edited)

Its very funny Christian or non-believer talk to same type person = get same answer.

Get out and find those are believer and practitioner. Approach with open mind to understand, experience and seek whatever information in supernatural way, not by physical way.


Text and script is man made. I can write "I pee here 03-MAY-2018" then after another 10,000yr somebody found my writing "I pee here", who will believe this?

Edited by DRAGYN RAKEN

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nephili
Posted (edited)
On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 12:12 AM, Kota said:

So, according to certain scriptures, Eve was not the first woman, Lilith was. She was created at the same time and same manner as Adam but refused to submit to him, leading to her leaving the garden of eden and long story short becoming a demon.

Why is she so rarely mentioned??

What I really find fascinating is though this is dated after the new testament, it really exposes some of the motives of the people involved in the early Christian church. Some stories and ideas added after the new testament really show how dark the roots of Christianity are.

This is a great example of this. Yet another rebellious woman who totally messed everything up. Just like Eve did. Of course it had to be a woman. Just like Eve. It's an excuse to have chauvinistic traditions and regulations.

They experimented a lot with refining, adding/taking away and purposefully mistranslating the bible. For lots of different reasons. Some are obvious. Some are not. This one to me seems very obvious in motive.

 

Edited by nephili
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