Atheism and faith

[Keymaster]

Do they know theyll wake up in the morning. No. Are they afraid to die as a result in there disbelief in after life? If so, going to bed is a act of faith. So on so forth applied to every  situation in anyones life. Wether or not this all exists by chance is irrelevant, chance is another way of saying i dont actually know. They believe it all works, and will continue to until it doesnt. Faith. Its more than that its just hard to explain. Damn you text. you limited form of communication. Somethings are just so obvious, that explaining them is hard. Because it all just feels like second nature.

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

yeah, I agree ... the only upshot is that it does not sound like a tourist promo ...

 

~

It certainly rivals the David Lee Roth Music Video, California Girls, in evoking sheer nausea.

[Emma_Acid]

On 06/05/2018 at 7:03 AM, Brother_Spirit said:

Would you accept Christianity, if it were true?

What do you mean by "true" - you're not just asking me to accept a vague moral framework or dedicating myself to spending Sundays in church.

You're asking me to believe that an obviously man-made set of beliefs is somehow divine; that there is a non-natural origin to reality; that an entire universe was created for our tiny planet to knock about in; that all the staggeringly complicated laws of nature were created by a divine being on a whim; that the sometimes hateful, sometimes contradictory ramblings of Iron Age Jews and Romans are somehow the most accurate account of history; etc etc. The list of "new assumptions" you're laying out with that simple sentence is almost endless.

What part of it are you asking me to accept, let alone suggest is true? The bible is so full of contradictions it cannot be in any way considered accurate. So what is it? That there is a god? An unfalsifiable proposition, and therefore not one that can be scientifically proven. That Jesus existed? He may well have done, but the bible is pretty well understood to be the work of the human hand, so we can instantly discount all the miracles both he is claimed to have performed and his immaculate origins.

So what is left? A vague moral framework and Sundays in church? No ta. I have a decent set of evolutionary morals and I like spending my Sundays in the pub, thank you.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Emma_Acid

[psyche101]

On 5/9/2018 at 4:48 PM, Keymaster said:

Do they know theyll wake up in the morning. No. Are they afraid to die as a result in there disbelief in after life? If so, going to bed is a act of faith. So on so forth applied to every  situation in anyones life. Wether or not this all exists by chance is irrelevant, chance is another way of saying i dont actually know. They believe it all works, and will continue to until it doesnt. Faith. Its more than that its just hard to explain. Damn you text. you limited form of communication. Somethings are just so obvious, that explaining them is hard. Because it all just feels like second nature.

 

Not sure, at all what your trying to get across but going to bed in the hopes of waking is not an act of faith. There is no reason to think you won't wake unless you have a terrible sickness or disease, or live in a place where murder in your sleep is an option, and in those situations people are quite aware of their odds. If you don't sleep, you will die. Faith is not hard to explain, its what appeals to a person based up things like culture, levels of indoctrination and education levels. It's a choice that appeals to some. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by psyche101

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

On 9/5/2018 at 8:48 AM, Keymaster said:

Do they know theyll wake up in the morning. No. Are they afraid to die as a result in there disbelief in after life?

People are afraid to die because dying kills you. 

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If so, going to bed is a act of faith.

Sleeping is a biological funtion. Animals sleep too, does that mean they have faith ?

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So on so forth applied to every  situation in anyones life.

So when you breathe, sleep or eat you do it on faith ?

I do it to survive.

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Wether or not this all exists by chance is irrelevant, chance is another way of saying i dont actually know.

Whats wrong with admitting you don't know ?

I think its way better that comming up with some half baked explanation.

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They believe it all works, and will continue to until it doesnt. Faith.

No not faith, just common sense. 

If I believe that there will be gravity tomorrow does that mean I am doing it on faith, or does it mean that I simply have no reason to think it won't be there ?

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Its more than that its just hard to explain.

Clearly. 

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Damn you text. you limited form of communication. Somethings are just so obvious, that explaining them is hard. Because it all just feels like second nature.

Maybe it hard to explain because it isn't as obvious as you believe it is ?

I have never really understood this widespead need to "prove" that atheists have faith ? 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Emma_Acid]

8 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I have never really understood this widespead need to "prove" that atheists have faith ? 

I think it's because they think it shows atheists up as hypocrites or whatever. Which is ridiculous, because every one has "faith" in things to a certain degree - you have "faith" that your partner won't cheat on you for example - but this does not equate to having faith in a religious belief system (which they then usually try and "prove" - negating the need for faith in the first place).

So I think they're essentially trying to flip the situation around, saying atheists live by "faith" and the religious, er, faithful are the ones with the facts.

[+joc]

6 minutes ago, Emma_Acid said:

I think it's because they think it shows atheists up as hypocrites or whatever. Which is ridiculous, because every one has "faith" in things to a certain degree - you have "faith" that your partner won't cheat on you for example - but this does not equate to having faith in a religious belief system (which they then usually try and "prove" - negating the need for faith in the first place).

So I think they're essentially trying to flip the situation around, saying atheists live by "faith" and the religious, er, faithful are the ones with the facts.

Many people believe that a 'fact' is supported by whether  or not they believe it. If they believe it...it is therefore true. Their belief that  a thing is so makes it a fact.  

And then there  are those of us who believe  that facts are facts because of their provability.  

I put my 'faith' in facts....belief gets in the way of facts. And yes... the foregone  conclusion of many is the reverse...that provable facts get in the way of belief.

[+DieChecker]

On 5/8/2018 at 12:36 PM, Doug1o29 said:

The God exists/God doesn't exist "debate" is asking the wrong question.  Ask 50 true believers if they have ever had a personal experience of God.  In that group, I bet you find quite a few.  Are they lying?  I don't think so.  They had an experience - there's no doubt of that.  But exactly what was that experience?  How did their minds create the experience they call "God?"

Science has made a few inroads toward answering that question and in the future will probably make more.  Eventually, god will be shown to be a function of mind - the experience of "God" will be proven valid.

So that's the question:  How does mind create God?

Doug

That is an interesting way to look at it. And even if it is scientifically shown that the mind creates the God sensation, it isn't going to stop anyone from saying that God still made that sensation happen.

The mind creates God the same way it creates any relationship, by experiences and assumptions on what you think you are feeling.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Many theists like to use the "atheists have faith too" argument to put them on the playing field. In essence saying that non-beleivers are no better than believers because we all have faith in something.

However, the argument is not an honest one since the theists are using the terms "faith" and "reasonable expectation" interchangeably.

"Faith" is belief without evidence, whereas "reasonable expectations" are based on evidence, and past performance.

For example: If I maintain my car, check fluids, change plugs, replace worn parts, then I have a reasonable expectation that the vehicle will perform its function and will start when I turn the key.

I suppose that if I didn't maintain the vehicle, you could say one would have faith that it would start. And when it doesn't, well sometimes faith is tested.........

[+DieChecker]

Personally I don't think being an atheist Requires having faith. As I tend to lump the non-religious in with the atheists, that would be impossible, because the non-religious just don't care at all... one way or the other.

On the other hand there are definitely atheists out there who are fanatical to the point where their devotion and desire to press their beliefs is very akin to a religion.

I've heard that Buddhism can be considered a philosophy, rather then a religion, and that it professes that all gods are illusions, and thus is atheist in nature. However it does seem that people profess Belief/Faith in their following of Buddhism, even though there is no Divinity involved. 

I suppose it depends on how one defines "atheism" and "faith".

Edited May 11, 2018 by DieChecker

[Kismit]

Athiesim is a religious position, not a Faith, but a position held on religion.

Non religious people are not always athiest. 

And everyone holds a position on religion even the apatheist.

[XenoFish]

12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

That is an interesting way to look at it. And even if it is scientifically shown that the mind creates the God sensation, it isn't going to stop anyone from saying that God still made that sensation happen.

The mind creates God the same way it creates any relationship, by experiences and assumptions on what you think you are feeling.

Just as thinking that god will punish you, might give a surge in feelings of paranoia. The power of an idea is equal to the belief in it. Causing psychosomatic and cognitive changes in an individual. You can either be high in a dopamine fuel religious fervor or dragged into the abyss of depression due to spiritual fear.

[Davros of Skaro]

Did someone invoke the Holy Dopamine Ghost in this thread?

[+joc]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Just as thinking that god will punish you, might give a surge in feelings of paranoia. The power of an idea is equal to the belief in it. Causing psychosomatic and cognitive changes in an individual. You can either be high in a dopamine fuel religious fervor or dragged into the abyss of depression due to spiritual fear.

Which, is exactly what prayer is...a superstitious, voodooistic, fear based adventure into the realm of the woo. If a prayer comes true....it is God's  will ...if a prayer doesnt come true...it is God's  will. Either  way...God's  will prevails. All fear based paranoic neanderthalic mindsets.

Was that too harsh?  I mean, there are some positive aspects  of prayer...or are there? Some people are comforted by belief...but again...at it's  root is fear.

[XenoFish]

22 minutes ago, joc said:

Which, is exactly what prayer is...a superstitious, voodooistic, fear based adventure into the realm of the woo. If a prayer comes true....it is God's  will ...if a prayer doesnt come true...it is God's  will. Either  way...God's  will prevails. All fear based paranoic neanderthalic mindsets.

Was that too harsh?  I mean, there are some positive aspects  of prayer...or are there? Some people are comforted by belief...but again...at it's  root is fear.

The answer really depends on the person and how belief affects them. Prayer to them might be equal to therapy. They pray to "let their worries out." then again you have those that willfully engage in wishful or magical thinking. I see prayer as a form of emotionally charged self affirmations. If they pray and act on those pray, its much better than wishing. However, it depends on what they're praying about. The religions are supposed to be on a high moral standard than us lonely non-believers, but in all honesty I see so few faithful that are this was.

[+DieChecker]

33 minutes ago, joc said:

Which, is exactly what prayer is...a superstitious, voodooistic, fear based adventure into the realm of the woo. If a prayer comes true....it is God's  will ...if a prayer doesnt come true...it is God's  will. Either  way...God's  will prevails. All fear based paranoic neanderthalic mindsets.

Was that too harsh?  I mean, there are some positive aspects  of prayer...or are there? Some people are comforted by belief...but again...at it's  root is fear.

I often have seen people who lived in fear. They also pray in fear. But, I've seen those who live in love, and they also pray in love.

I think those who live in fear don't know any other way, so they refuse to believe that anyone might live in any other way. 

For those who truly Believe, they can have absolute certainty of their Salvation, and thus are beyond fear of death and damnation. Myself, I do fear some things, such as one of my kids being hit by a idiot driver, but I don't fear for what comes after death.

[+DieChecker]

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The answer really depends on the person and how belief affects them. Prayer to them might be equal to therapy. They pray to "let their worries out." then again you have those that willfully engage in wishful or magical thinking. I see prayer as a form of emotionally charged self affirmations. If they pray and act on those pray, its much better than wishing. However, it depends on what they're praying about. The religions are supposed to be on a high moral standard than us lonely non-believers, but in all honesty I see so few faithful that are this was.

I'd agree with this somewhat. I think of prayer as more of a conversation, rather then a demand of intervention. You are asking for a favor for yourself, others, or some event, and saying that if such and such does happen it would be pleasing to yourself, or others. God in no way is constrained to do anything. The person praying is just expressing what they would like to happen.

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I'd agree with this somewhat. I think of prayer as more of a conversation, rather then a demand of intervention. You are asking for a favor for yourself, others, or some event, and saying that if such and such does happen it would be pleasing to yourself, or others. God in no way is constrained to do anything. The person praying is just expressing what they would like to happen.

Why do you think I call prayer affirmations.

[GoldenWolf]

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

The mind creates God the same way it creates any relationship, by experiences and assumptions on what you think you are feeling.

I think people create God more out of selfish desires than anything.

[+joc]

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I often have seen people who lived in fear. They also pray in fear. But, I've seen those who live in love, and they also pray in love.

I think those who live in fear don't know any other way, so they refuse to believe that anyone might live in any other way. 

For those who truly Believe, they can have absolute certainty of their Salvation, and thus are beyond fear of death and damnation. Myself, I do fear some things, such as one of my kids being hit by a idiot driver, but I don't fear for what comes after death.

Do you pray for the protection of your kids  on the road? 

[+joc]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The answer really depends on the person and how belief affects them. Prayer to them might be equal to therapy. They pray to "let their worries out." then again you have those that willfully engage in wishful or magical thinking. I see prayer as a form of emotionally charged self affirmations. If they pray and act on those pray, its much better than wishing. However, it depends on what they're praying about. The religions are supposed to be on a high moral standard than us lonely non-believers, but in all honesty I see so few faithful that are this was.

The religions  are here for one reason above all others. To line the coffers  of  said religion .

Edited May 11, 2018 by joc

[XenoFish]

16 minutes ago, joc said:

The religions  are here for one reason above all others. To line the coffers  of  said religion .

That would be the majority of organized religions yes. I'm thinking more along the lines of personal beliefs. 

[Davros of Skaro]

Well I experienced God, and it was just like taking Valium. 

Opiod addicts, and compulsive gamblers are not that way out of fear. They are that way because non-thinking evolution cannot anticipate pharmaceuticals, and games of chance.

There was an instance where acid rain altered the bark color of a certain species of trees. It made the native moth previous camouflage more visible to birds. It made the moth that happen to mutate to the new bark color proliferate. 

Genesis 1:28

"28 God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."'

[+joc]

10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That would be the majority of organized religions yes. I'm thinking more along the lines of personal beliefs. 

I know you refer  to prayer ss affirmations and in that vein i agree...I am talking about those who actually believe a Deity will bless  them...or curse  them..

Those who pray for protection. Believing that if they  do God will keep them safe...it becomes more superstition than anything else

Much of the time, prayer  between  the pray-er and God is fear based ...not all of it..there  are also Praise prayers.  But,  it is promoted and fed to the sheep  by organized religion...and the sheep dutifully  baa out  their  prayers .

 

[+DieChecker]

17 hours ago, MysticWolf said:

I think people create God more out of selfish desires than anything.

I can see why a lot of people would think that. And I think a lot of people do follow, and pray, to God for selfish reasons. But that is human failing, not a failing in what Jesus taught, or what Christianity teaches about God.