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On3Truly

Atheism and faith

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XenoFish
43 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

If it works with money, I need your prayers.:rofl:

Is that a joke?

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third_eye
2 hours ago, danydandan said:

Some meta analysis of different studies also suggest that there is a null effect of prayers on patient's. Basically it seems the more rigorous the parameters the less of an effect seems to appear.

So based on evidence, there seems to be prehaps a placebo effect due to prayers, while the step study suggests it might be damaging to tell people they are being prayed for.

I wonder if the reverse is also true, when the prayers are for a life shortened ...

~

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Emma_Acid
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

That.....and......how is the mind capable of producing supernatural experiences?  If there is no actual God, and God only exists as a function of our own minds, then we are God and we don't even know it.  If there is no God, then I have done miracles.  

Why does a "god" have to exist?

Also - what miracles? 

Edited by Emma_Acid
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danydandan
1 minute ago, third_eye said:

I wonder if the reverse is also true, when the prayers are for a life shortened ...

~

That would be an interesting study. But you would have to get hundreds of atheists to agree to it, and some evil religious people to pray for their ill health. I don't think it would go anywhere to be honest.

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third_eye
Just now, danydandan said:

That would be an interesting study. But you would have to get hundreds of atheists to agree to it, and some evil religious people to pray for their ill health. I don't think it would go anywhere to be honest.

I know what you are getting at here, though if one were to be honest enough, I don't believe it is something thoroughly beyond the scope of an honest assessment, I know of plenty of occasions throughout history where the masses of religious congregations of every denomination has and as well as will continue, to pray in that direction, even if it is not something that they will readily confess to.

~

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Guyver
1 hour ago, Emma_Acid said:

Why does a "god" have to exist?

Also - what miracles? 

I don't know that a "god" has to exist or not exist.  The miracles would take too much time, and I don't know how they'd be received, so I don't wish to go into it.  If you check the "If God Exists, Where is he to be found" thread I made in spirituality, religion, and beliefs, the last few pages of the thread details one of those miracles I am not discussing now.  People didn't say much about it, so I think that kind of validates my reasons for not going into it more.  

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, third_eye said:

I wonder if the reverse is also true, when the prayers are for a life shortened ...

~

That would be a nocebo effect.

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third_eye
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That would be a nocebo effect.

So where does the gazebo fit into all of this ?

~

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joc
13 hours ago, DieChecker said:

This is sadly true to a greater degree then most people think. My father in law, who is a pastor, says it is like there are a huge number of people who are wearing a "I'm a Christian" t-shirt, while hating on people, ignoring those in need and following the OT to a larger extent then the NT.

It is very sad.

in the modern church...in order to be a Christian, one must believe in the virgin birth,  and the  resurrection...and...that Jesus died for your sins. 

The truth though is that virgins don't  have babies, dead people do not come back to life, and Jesus died because the church had him executed.

His entire ministry and teachings are just so much..."oh by the way".

Very sad. 

Edited by joc

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joc
11 hours ago, Guyver said:

That.....and......how is the mind capable of producing supernatural experiences?  If there is no actual God, and God only exists as a function of our own minds, then we are God and we don't even know it.  If there is no God, then I have done miracles.  

The mind created  God by seeking answers for questions it had no way of knowing. Not really a mystery nor a deep philosophical anomoly.

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On3Truly
On 10/05/2018 at 8:15 AM, Emma_Acid said:

What do you mean by "true" - you're not just asking me to accept a vague moral framework or dedicating myself to spending Sundays in church.

You're asking me to believe that an obviously man-made set of beliefs is somehow divine; that there is a non-natural origin to reality; that an entire universe was created for our tiny planet to knock about in; that all the staggeringly complicated laws of nature were created by a divine being on a whim; that the sometimes hateful, sometimes contradictory ramblings of Iron Age Jews and Romans are somehow the most accurate account of history; etc etc. The list of "new assumptions" you're laying out with that simple sentence is almost endless.

What part of it are you asking me to accept, let alone suggest is true? The bible is so full of contradictions it cannot be in any way considered accurate. So what is it? That there is a god? An unfalsifiable proposition, and therefore not one that can be scientifically proven. That Jesus existed? He may well have done, but the bible is pretty well understood to be the work of the human hand, so we can instantly discount all the miracles both he is claimed to have performed and his immaculate origins.

So what is left? A vague moral framework and Sundays in church? No ta. I have a decent set of evolutionary morals and I like spending my Sundays in the pub, thank you.

You're beating around the bush and did not answer my question. So I'll ask again:  If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

 

Edited by Brother_Spirit

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On3Truly
2 hours ago, joc said:

The mind created  God by seeking answers for questions it had no way of knowing. Not really a mystery nor a deep philosophical anomoly.

What is your evidence for that claim?

Edited by Brother_Spirit

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Rlyeh
1 hour ago, Brother_Spirit said:

If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

While I'd acknowledge your god is real, he's either the biggest liar in the universe or the biggest idiot. Unless we cherry pick the Bible, God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Let me ask you a question; if the flat earth were true, would you believe the flat earth? Despite the fact it's completely contradicted by evidence.

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On3Truly
23 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

While I'd acknowledge your god is real, he's either the biggest liar in the universe or the biggest idiot. Unless we cherry pick the Bible, God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

 

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Truthseeker007
23 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

While I'd acknowledge your god is real, he's either the biggest liar in the universe or the biggest idiot. Unless we cherry pick the Bible, God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Let me ask you a question; if the flat earth were true, would you believe the flat earth? Despite the fact it's completely contradicted by evidence.

Or an Alien in which they call the Anunnaki.:lol: Maybe these stories were based on some intelligent creatures that people worship as God.

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Truthseeker007
2 hours ago, Brother_Spirit said:

You're beating around the bush and did not answer my question. So I'll ask again:  If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

 

Been there and done that and Christianity is just another religion out of the thousands to chose from. To the best of my research the Bible Jesus didn't even exist. Hard to say it is true when the so called founder is no more real then Harry Potter.

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Rlyeh
1 hour ago, Brother_Spirit said:

 

Can you answer my question, could you accept the earth is flat despite the evidence to the contrary?

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Rlyeh
1 hour ago, Truthseeker007 said:

Or an Alien in which they call the Anunnaki.:lol: Maybe these stories were based on some intelligent creatures that people worship as God.

Alien? The Anunnaki were just a pantheon of Mesopotamian deities.

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danydandan
1 hour ago, Truthseeker007 said:

Been there and done that and Christianity is just another religion out of the thousands to chose from. To the best of my research the Bible Jesus didn't even exist. Hard to say it is true when the so called founder is no more real then Harry Potter.

Jesus definitely existed, there are multiple independent historians that write about him. However all the miraculous stuff he was supposed to do is nonsense.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/316899-independent-sources-for-the-existence-of-jesu/?tab=comments#comment-6414936

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Truthseeker007
24 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Alien? The Anunnaki were just a pantheon of Mesopotamian deities.

So you think these stories about the Mesopotamian deities were just made up out of thin air? You don't think it is possible these stories were based on something that really happened?

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Truthseeker007
7 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Jesus definitely existed, there are multiple independent historians that write about him. However all the miraculous stuff he was supposed to do is nonsense.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/316899-independent-sources-for-the-existence-of-jesu/?tab=comments#comment-6414936

I am saying that the Jesus of the Bible didn't exist as one entity. That the story was created from using different sources. One example out of the many is Apollonius of Tyana. Remember it is just a story and the writers had an endless amount of books and literature to take from to create this new god man. But yes it can be said there was a real Jesus among many of them. The beginning of the New Teste. should say based very loosely on a true story.:lol:

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danydandan
9 minutes ago, Truthseeker007 said:

I am saying that the Jesus of the Bible didn't exist as one entity. That the story was created from using different sources. One example out of the many is Apollonius of Tyana. Remember it is just a story and the writers had an endless amount of books and literature to take from to create this new god man. But yes it can be said there was a real Jesus among many of them. The beginning of the New Teste. should say based very loosely on a true story.:lol:

He was no more than a political revolutionary. Killed by is own kind and like all revolutionaries through out history being a martyr got him recognised.

Edited by danydandan
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Emma_Acid
3 hours ago, Brother_Spirit said:

You're beating around the bush and did not answer my question. So I'll ask again:  If Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

I cannot answer the question, it's meaningless.

The bible can't be true. Aside from the fact that "god" is demonstrably two different personalities depending on which side of Jesus' birth you come down on, it's riddled with inaccuracies, fabrications and contradictions. It is well understood to be compiled by various stories by number of authors, and there have even been studies in what order they were written in and who copied what from whom. It is demonstrably not the "word of God".

This means we cannot trust its accounts of miracles, angels, rebirths etc. 

So you cannot mean the Bible "is true" when you say "Christianity is true".

So what else is there? That there was a man called Jesus living in the middle east? Sure. The miracles are out and immaculate conception are out, as we have shown above, so what else is left? That he was a Jewish rebel who was crucified? I can believe that. But that isn't "Christianity".

What about he Christian "god"? Well, as I showed above, the "god" of the new and old testament are radically different entities. The god of the new testament is a bit vanilla if you ask me - he has none of the personality of, say, a Roman god like Jupiter, so you cannot latch on to that as an angle. And as I also stated before, the concept of a monothesitc god is unfalsifiable - we can never prove nor disprove their existence, so its a bit of a moot point.

So I'll ask again - what do you mean when you say "Christianity is true"?

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Truthseeker007
48 minutes ago, danydandan said:

He was no more than a political revolutionary. Killed by is own kind and like all revolutionaries through out history being a martyr got him recognised.

That is one way of looking at it.

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danydandan
17 minutes ago, Truthseeker007 said:

That is one way of looking at it.

I'm my opinion it's the only way of looking at it. His Country was in control of an invading force, the leadership of his people sought to keep their power by accepting Roman rule. He was standing against the injustice he witnessed in his land.

He was just like any other revolutionary, Washington, Collins, Tortsky, Meena, Petofi, Lord Byron, Marx, Ghandi and Broz Tito. Only difference is written history was basically non existent in those times and people made up a lot of stuff about him and fabled stories in his name which for some reason people accept as gospel.

Edit: I suppose them people mentioned actually made tangible differences in their Countries where Jesus didn't.

Edited by danydandan

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