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On3Truly

Atheism and faith

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On3Truly
16 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I honestly doubt they were really atheists to begin with. They just say that to get noticed. 

So it's impossible for a 'true atheist' to change his mind and convert to religion?

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit

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psyche101
47 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

So it's impossible for a 'true atheist' to change his mind and convert to religion?

I don't feel the evidence supporting a natural universe can be refuted at all with religious beliefs. I can only see religion acting as a representative moral compass for people who truly understand the implications of findings to date. 

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Summerin1905
1 hour ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

So it's impossible for a 'true atheist' to change his mind and convert to religion?

for some its impossible and for others its possible it depends on the person, same with religion. In fact i was religious before i become well atheist-skeptic It happened with me honestly i would pray as I was a kid and then my dad told me Santa Claus was fake so logical conclusion told me probably Jesus was not a supernatural bearded man in the sky. Has there been a person by the name of Jesus who was a mere mortal and told people the value of human goodness? quite possible do i believe a man was created out of nothing who created the bible and somehow created the universe all in one day, probably not.

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On3Truly
6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I just cannot see a 'genuine' reversion can you? I can see people of science adopting religion as a moral compass, or even a hobby like activity, but I can't see a genuine bona-fide scientist reverting on evidence. Because there is none.

Well, you're wrong.

Ever heard of physician-geneticist  Francis S. Collins? He went from full-blown atheism to Christianity:

 

What about astrophysicist Hugh Ross? He turned his back on atheism and became convinced by the evidence of religion.

 

Can I also add Gunther Scheizle, a CERN nuclear physicist and professor of Physics?

[LINK] Hardcore Atheist Converts After Jesus Visits Him In A Vision

 

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit

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Rlyeh
14 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

Well, you're wrong.

Ever heard of physician-geneticist  Francis S. Collins? He went from full-blown atheism to Christianity:

No amount of evidence will make half the nonsense in the Bible true. That's like choosing to believe in Santa Claus after learning he's make believe, you've got to do a lot of mental gymnastics.

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danydandan
3 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

Well, you're wrong.

Ever heard of physician-geneticist  Francis S. Collins? He went from full-blown atheism to Christianity:

 

What about astrophysicist Hugh Ross? He turned his back on atheism and became convinced by the evidence of religion.

 

Can I also add Gunther Scheizle, a CERN nuclear physicist and professor of Physics?

[LINK] Hardcore Atheist Converts After Jesus Visits Him In A Vision

 

The whole argument is all relative, you can't paint everyone with the same brush. Doing so is ridiculous.

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jmccr8
12 hours ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

So it's impossible for a 'true atheist' to change his mind and convert to religion?

Hi Clockwork

are you being religion-specific, just citing Christian conversion? What stats do you have for religious conversion concepts other than Christian where scientists that were Athiest and converted to their faiths, proper impartial research is your friend.Like Psychic said some may need that moral support as a part of belonging. You do not know why every individual or how they came to be a part of something, we are social creatures and find a variety of activities and events to go to for no other reason than that there will be other people there to work with or compete with.

jmccr8

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danydandan
19 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Clockwork

are you being religion-specific, just citing Christian conversion? What stats do you have for religious conversion concepts other than Christian where scientists that were Athiest and converted to their faiths, proper impartial research is your friend.Like Psychic said some may need that moral support as a part of belonging. You do not know why every individual or how they came to be a part of something, we are social creatures and find a variety of activities and events to go to for no other reason than that there will be other people there to work with or compete with.

jmccr8

Statements like what the poster posted are very generalised. It's basically either your with me or against me attitude. It's very American Christian type of attitude.

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eight bits
8 minutes ago, danydandan said:

It's very American Christian type of attitude.

Ouch.

I'm an American, dude. It's a big place. Maybe down in Deliverance country, the Christians there have distinctive attitudes. I don't know. 'Round where I live, there are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Nones ... it's all very mellow.

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danydandan
46 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Ouch.

I'm an American, dude. It's a big place. Maybe down in Deliverance country, the Christians there have distinctive attitudes. I don't know. 'Round where I live, there are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Nones ... it's all very mellow.

I'm just inferring what I see on TV and read online. Maybe that's misrepresented in the media, I think probably.

The world thinks Americans take things to the extreme. Sure don't riots happen over there because a team lost a sports game.

Edited by danydandan
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eight bits

If atheism is only about belief in gods (and by some accounts, not even a belief that there is no god, not being a theist suffiices), then atheism is NOT about belief in science. So what difference does it make whether or not a scientist believes in gods? Why wouldn't a scientist believe in gods? Why would a scientist qua scientist disbleieve in gods?

Because gods aren't demonstrable by empirical evidence? OK, but all a scientist needs to believe to choose to be a scientist is that empiricism is one way of knowing things. Then, wanting to know something, and seeing a way to learn about it empirically, this person goes off and does some science. And science, not requiring belief in science in order for it to work, works for this person. The person is a scientist.

Meanwhile, no scientist has even begun to show that gods don't exist. At most, some results have shown that a popular religious hymn, Genesis chapter 1, isn't an accurate account of cosmology. OK, that's devastating for some specific theists (or would be if they believed that their hymn is wrong because of what science shows, which Fundies don't anyway). What has this to do with the question of whether there are any gods? (Even that God: apparently, some of his less discerning readers can't tell the difference between a hymn and a scientific text. How's that the supposed author's fault?)

And then there is belief change. Why wouldn't somebody's belief change? People who are recognized as saints by other theists often report "dark nights of the soul," periods during which they don't believe. Have they not, by the "hair trigger" definition of atheism, progressed from theism to atheism and back to theism each time they have a doubt event, God alone knowing how many times that could be over the course of a long life spent on their knees?

If I confidently believe something today, then I (in some ways of looking at "confidence") expect today that I'll confidently believe it tomorrow, too. If it turns out tomorrow that I don't believe it anymore, then what can I infer about my confidence today?

Nothing. I will have made a forecasting mistake about my future self. If atheism is solely about belief in gods, then accurate knowledge of one's future self has nothing to do with atheism.

Some atheists need to get their story straight (if anybody  who ever lacked a god belief was not an atheist, then cool - I am not your brother, either). Some theists need to wrap their head around the idea that science isn't hostile to theism, it's indifferent (a Latinate word meaning science doesn't care about your imaginary friends, not even enough to refute them).

Edited by eight bits
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Sherapy
4 hours ago, danydandan said:

Statements like what the poster posted are very generalised. It's basically either your with me or against me attitude. It's very American Christian type of attitude.

Dan, what is distinctive about an American Christian type of attitude to you? 

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danydandan
9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Dan, what is distinctive about an American Christian type of attitude to you? 

Seems to me, its very us verses them or your either with us on against us. We don't see that over here where I am.

My experience of Religion over here is Catholicism, Islam, Protestantism and Hebrew no one has this attitude of it's us against the world.

Edited by danydandan
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Sherapy
12 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Seems to me, its very us verses them or your either with us on against us. We don't see that over here where I am.

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback.

Politically, I would say yes, we do tend to get polarized. Have a side if you will. The direction seems to be towards embracing diversity these days. 

Religiously, not where I live, (I regularly interact with many traditions). And, in my travels  around the US, I have not experienced this. 

I don't put a whole lot of stock into our media, personally. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Marion Jenis

I am not an atheist, but I have noticed that many atheists are more concerned with social issues than most theists are, and have excellent moral values. One reason is that atheists tend to be more highly educated than most theists. Another reason is that atheism itself has values, just as the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" claims. There is no reason to be ashamed of those values, for we owe them to some of our best thinkers---a long line of philosophers beginning with Aristotle. Even though Aristotle was not actually an atheist, "God" does not seem to be very important to his thought. I could also mention the Stoics, whose values put their philosophy on a par with Buddhism. 

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, danydandan said:

Seems to me, its very us verses them or your either with us on against us. We don't see that over here where I am.

My experience of Religion over here is Catholicism, Islam, Protestantism and Hebrew no one has this attitude of it's us against the world.

Do you Live in Ulster?

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Davros of Skaro
On 4/27/2018 at 7:03 PM, psyche101 said:

I just cannot see a 'genuine' reversion can you?

I see it done out of emotions which is very capable of pushing aside rationality. 

We are all capable of base instincts taking over higher cognitive abilities for many differing issues. 

On a sidenote; once again CS ignored my question. How about that.

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ShadowSot
9 hours ago, Marion Jenis said:

I am not an atheist, but I have noticed that many atheists are more concerned with social issues than most theists are, and have excellent moral values. One reason is that atheists tend to be more highly educated than most theists. Another reason is that atheism itself has values, just as the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" claims. There is no reason to be ashamed of those values, for we owe them to some of our best thinkers---a long line of philosophers beginning with Aristotle. Even though Aristotle was not actually an atheist, "God" does not seem to be very important to his thought. I could also mention the Stoics, whose values put their philosophy on a par with Buddhism. 

I don't think atheists have any inherent moral superiority. As much as it's talked about here, the bulk of social change here in the US is still carried out by Christians, admittedly of a liberal variety. 

 It makes for an unending source of amusement for me that the largest attacks on "Christian values" comes from Christians. 

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Davros of Skaro
23 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

No amount of evidence will make half the nonsense in the Bible true. That's like choosing to believe in Santa Claus after learning he's make believe, you've got to do a lot of mental gymnastics.

One of Fancis's arguments is "There's something rather than nothing". 

Is there an Olympic event where one sees how far they can throw their brain?

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On3Truly
13 hours ago, Marion Jenis said:

 One reason is that atheists tend to be more highly educated than most theists.

That's simply wrong. There are plenty of theists who are high achieving and educated. There are fewer atheists than theists, of course, but both can be found at every layer of Western society. I think you are propagating a myth here, nothing more.

Edited by Clockwork_Spirit

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psyche101
On 4/28/2018 at 3:10 PM, Clockwork_Spirit said:

Well, you're wrong.

No I'm not you don't understand atheism. 

Quote

Ever heard of physician-geneticist  Francis S. Collins? He went from full-blown atheism to Christianity:

What do you mean have I ever heard of him? You, like the church, have put him in a pedestal before and we have discussed him at least three times. It's not a 'genuine reversion' and his reasons are personal and emotional, not supported by evidence. I don't see him as ever really being an atheist, atheists dot go hiking on the woods searching for God and then decide a frozen waterfall is a sign directly from God (the waterfall was frozen into 3 tiers and he personally decided that God did that to represent the holy trinity) 

Not impressed. Collins is a Godsend to religious apologetics having gained scientific respect before embarking on a personal journey. Nothing to do with evidence or science, in my opinion he is a fasle prophet in preaching that religion and science work in harmony. They don't and that's why Hitches gave such scathing reviews of Collins before he passed away. If he had a significant impact in a meaningful way, he could reach atheists on a rational plane, but he failed there, only getting religious sources supporting his cause. I don't think Collins was really an atheist, I think he was someone who didn't think about God enough to warrant an opinion and simply chose his personal path later in life than most, and then publicly pats himself on the back for it. 

Quote

What about astrophysicist Hugh Ross? He turned his back on atheism and became convinced by the evidence of religion.

What evidence? Can you bullet point the 'evidences' that prompted his apparent conversion?

And he refuses Intelligent Design, not really your sort of proponent is he? Is like to hope not, he is as unstable as Jonathan Wells. You do reasile that he also preaches that UFOs are demons coming to earth to possess people? 

He doesn't see any flaws in his argument at all, and claims science refuses to investigate the UFO/Demon connection because, and I quote:

One reason why research scientists and others may be reluctant to say that demons exist behind residual UFO's is because such an answer points too directly to a Christian interpretation of the problem.

Lights In the Sky and Little Green Men: A Rational Christian Look at UFO’s and Extraterrestrials pp125.

Whackjob. 

Next. 

Quote

Can I also add Gunther Scheizle, a CERN nuclear physicist and professor of Physics?

[LINK] Hardcore Atheist Converts After Jesus Visits Him In A Vision

 

Really? 

Scared into wanting an afterlife by a heart attack? And heavily coerced? More like thinking with the wrong head. 

His wife pressured him to hang out with 'the nice people at church' and after what sounds like constant battering, one day he finally went and gave a 15 minute prayer and some little girl cried. He was converted, in my opinion, that soundsike religious brainwashing to me. 

That's not a genuine reversion based on evidence either, it's a personal choice. Heck, look at your link, Jesus visits him in a vision??? That's genuine evidence somehow? 

Their personal views are not accepted or supported by science, and I seriously question their definition of atheist, specifically Collins and Ross. Scheizle's story sounds like a sad tale of coercion to me. 

Edited by psyche101
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Stubbly_Dooright
On 4/27/2018 at 12:57 AM, psyche101 said:

Any assault on logic and common sense deserves to be challenged. 

No, you just haven't read any of them but pretend to know what's in them just like how your are describing your view of atheists in this thread. 

They generally bring the sciences down to a layman level so people can think for themselves. The titles are often provocative to assist book sales, often the publisher 'influences' the title. 

In my book selling years opinion, ..... Yup! :yes:  

On 4/27/2018 at 2:46 PM, Lilly said:

In the final analysis there's an element of faith in everything we choose to believe. We all have 'faith' in the reliability of our observational and rational powers to give us complete/correct information about the world/universe in which we live. This issue applies to the concept of God as well. Being strong or being able to accept reason just doesn't suffice for this particular question. In the end it all comes down to a personal choice, there's just no way around this one. 

I don’t know, (and this maybe my own perspective of this), but with the very complexed English language, I sometimes wonder if one particular word is being used in different ways. Just Looking it up  I see ‘faith’ defined  when discussing being used in things like scientist in their work. Like in everyday life. 

.

confidence or trust in a person or thing:
“faith in another's ability.”
 
Then when I see it being used in religious outlooks 
 
“belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:”
 
I often wonder in how the task of what the word implies being changed. I consider in how a language one word can have more than one meaning, and many different words can convey all the same meaning. So, I find it a bit on the fence, when I see the word faith being used in both religious and secular usages and it’s sentences and phrases. I just see two different meanings when being used for two different groups and meanings. 
 
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Stubbly_Dooright
On 4/27/2018 at 7:12 PM, Clockwork_Spirit said:

So it's impossible for a 'true atheist' to change his mind and convert to religion?

This here, Has me asking, why is it even important to think this is a concern to you? Why is it important, what others believe or do not believe? Shouldn’t everyone be left alone to believe or don’t believe? 

 

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danydandan
20 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Do you Live in Ulster?

No I'm from Kildare, in the pale,a town called Leixlip, Intel has a massive plant here. Also the first place Guinness was made.

Edited by danydandan
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Hammerclaw
34 minutes ago, danydandan said:

No I'm from Kildare, in the pale,a town called Leixlip, Intel has a massive plant here. Also the first place Guinness was made.

Ah, the posh folk down south. Sounds rather idyllic, the way describe.

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