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aztek

2020 Democratic presidential candidate

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Vlad the Mighty

If that's what's taken as insane Communism in American politics these days, no wonder it has the credibility it has with the rest of the world. 

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Aquila King

I haven't heard of this guy until now, so thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I went on the dude's website and read quite a bit of his policy positions. It's a lengthy read to read them all, so I'll have to return to it later, but so far it seems I agree with him very strongly on almost every point.

As for his stance on a universal basic income, I've known for a while now that it was only a matter of time before such a system would be implemented. I'm not necessarily against it, but at the same time since no country has as of yet implemented such a system, I'm a bit apprehensive about it. I believe that it is indeed the future, but I would personally prefer to test such a system for a while on a smaller scale, and then decide whether to implement it nationally based on the results.

I support things like universal healthcare, tuition-free public college, a living wage, etc. because other social democratic countries already have such systems implemented, and are very well off because of it. Since UBI hasn't been implemented anywhere yet, It's hard for me as an empiricist to jump on board quite yet. Though I will certainly support considering it as a definite possibility.

So in summary, I have a bit more research to do on the dude, but overall I really like what I see.

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Likely Guy
7 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I haven't heard of this guy until now, so thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I went on the dude's website and read quite a bit of his policy positions. It's a lengthy read to read them all, so I'll have to return to it later, but so far it seems I agree with him very strongly on almost every point.

As for his stance on a universal basic income, I've known for a while now that it was only a matter of time before such a system would be implemented. I'm not necessarily against it, but at the same time since no country has as of yet implemented such a system, I'm a bit apprehensive about it. I believe that it is indeed the future, but I would personally prefer to test such a system for a while on a smaller scale, and then decide whether to implement it nationally based on the results.

I support things like universal healthcare, tuition-free public college, a living wage, etc. because other social democratic countries already have such systems implemented, and are very well off because of it. Since UBI hasn't been implemented anywhere yet, It's hard for me as an empiricist to jump on board quite yet. Though I will certainly support considering it as a definite possibility.

So in summary, I have a bit more research to do on the dude, but overall I really like what I see.

Finland is currently running a pilot project. See how that goes...

 

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LV-426

$1000 bucks a month for free?

I'd expect a massive increase in applications for US citizenship :o

Including me...

*does a dodgy rendition of The Star-Spangled Banner while waving a hastily-drawn Democratic Party flag*

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aztek

why would anyone work then? just pop more kids and collect more money, oh wait we already have generations on welfare doing exactly that

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F3SS

I’m telling you right now that in the case of a basic income for all I am going to work less. Someone else can pick up my slack.

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Aquila King
5 minutes ago, aztek said:

Not sure if you actually read the article you posted, but here's an excerpt that goes against your narrative here:

Quote

The scheme – aimed primarily at seeing whether a guaranteed income might incentivise people to take up paid work by smoothing out gaps in the welfare system – is strictly speaking not a universal basic income (UBI) trial, because the payments are made to a restricted group and are not enough to live on.

But it was hoped it would shed light on policy issues such as whether an unconditional payment might reduce anxiety among recipients and allow the government to simplify a complex social security system that is struggling to cope with a fast-moving and insecure labour market.

Olli Kangas, an expert involved in the trial, told the Finnish public broadcaster YLE: “Two years is too short a period to be able to draw extensive conclusions from such a big experiment. We should have had extra time and more money to achieve reliable results.”

(bold added)

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Aquila King
5 minutes ago, aztek said:

why would anyone work then?

That's exactly the #1 concern with such a system, which is why I would support additional research on it before actually implementing it. It may very well turn out to be a bad idea.

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F3SS
Posted (edited)

Humans are inherently selfish. Even though most people are good and willing to help others when in need, when it comes to money and work the more we are given the less we will do. The bleeding heart reaction to that is that we must all work together as a society and if you won’t then you hate people and want them to die. The fact is though that handouts, and let’s not mistake this for anything else, breed laziness. It’s just how it is.

I don’t have many excuses to be lazy but if this is the future then what the hell? I’ve put a couple decades of hard work in. I’ll chill out and let someone else work for my guaranteed government money.

Edited by F3SS
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aztek
Just now, F3SS said:

Humans are inherently selfish. Even though most people are good and willing to help others when in need, when it comes to money and work the more we are given the less we will do. The bleeding heart reaction to that is that we must all work together as a society and if you won’t then you hate people and want them to die. The fact is though that handouts, and let’s not mistake this for anything else, breed laziness. It’s just how it is.

I don’t have many excuses to be lazy but if this is the future then what the hell? I’ve put a couple decades of hard work in. I’ll chill out and let someone else work for my guaranteed government money.

we already have welfare experiment going for over 60 years, it only  brought out worst in people, like i said generations were born and died on it, not  working a single day in their lives. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

I think a universal income could work, BUT it would require cuts to a lot of other things, including “the dole”, bulk billing, the minimum wage, Medicare...

basically, it would be enough money to buy enough groceries to survive and put a little away for emergencies. If you want more, get a job. If you p*** it up against the wall buying drugs - tough. The government will give you a sack of flour, some bananas and a lecture. 

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aztek
Posted (edited)

 but where will the money come from?  not even considering money to be paid to people,  we'll need to create new agency that will deal with it, with thousands of people working there, and huge budget,  maybe if we stop sending billions to countries that hate us, but i still think it wont even cover the clerical expenses. since lot of people who get min wage and get taxed on that,  not to mention  it disqualifies you from medicaid right now,  they will just quit, and get 1k base pay, and either do nothing or hustle, either way no taxes paid.  The rich 1% will never pick up the slack. nor they should imo

we already know what happens when you give away free money, not once it ended good

Edited by aztek
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Sir Wearer of Hats
Just now, aztek said:

 but where will the money come from?  not even considering money to be paid to people,  we'll need to create new agency that will deal with it, with thousands of people working there, and huge budget,  maybe if we stop sending billions to countries that hate us, but i still think it wont even cover the clerical expenses. since lot of people who get min wage and get taxed on that,  not to mention  it disqualifies you from medicaid right now,  they will just quit get 1k base pay, and either do nothing or hustle, either way not taxes paid.the rich 1% will never pick up the slack. 

Good point.

if you get rid of social security and the pensions, you’d have to change the tax system to not tax the basic income ... it’d take a massive seachange in society, as much as I think it’s an idea worthy of attempting, and one that I like, I don’t think it will work, not in the US. It might work here in Oz.

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aztek
Posted (edited)

yea pretty much, too many people here,  even tiny Finland stopped, even thou it was not true basic income for all, just selected group and it was not even enough to live on it alone.  

 

like you said we would have to change our entire tax system, that will create chaos, for years if not decades,  we have OK system, it may need few adjustments from time to time, but in general it is pretty adequate for the country. 

Edited by aztek

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F3SS
28 minutes ago, aztek said:

but where will the money come from?

Didn’t you and I do some math on this a while back? I think we found it would cost each working tax payer $40k a year just to provide basic income only to all adults. Basically it was 1 tax payer to support 40 other individuals at $1k a month.

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aztek
Posted (edited)
Just now, F3SS said:

Didn’t you and I do some math on this a while back? I think we found it would cost each working tax payer $40k a year just to provide basic income only to all adults. Basically it was 1 tax payer to support 40 other individuals at $1k a month.

yes we did that is why i asked a rhetorical question,  for those that think it is a good idea.

btw we never accounted for expenses associated with new system, nor we accounted loss of tax revenue from those that would decide screw working i'll get my 1g and just  chill.

Edited by aztek

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Farmer77
8 minutes ago, F3SS said:

Didn’t you and I do some math on this a while back? I think we found it would cost each working tax payer $40k a year just to provide basic income only to all adults. Basically it was 1 tax payer to support 40 other individuals at $1k a month.

The things ive read have been more near-future based and the goal is to pay for it with taxation of industries that have moved to robotics or AI rather than human employees. 

That combined with a cut in the DOD budget and tax revenue from legal marijuana and its doable. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats
46 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

The things ive read have been more near-future based and the goal is to pay for it with taxation of industries that have moved to robotics or AI rather than human employees. 

That combined with a cut in the DOD budget and tax revenue from legal marijuana and its doable. 

No it’s not, not if it involves a cut to the MIC, they’ve been tootling the horn of War lately so there’s no chance anyone will back a cut in funding.

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RAyMO
46 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

taxation of industries that have moved to robotics or AI rather than human employees. 

something is going to have to be done - maybe the G7 or some such group should set up an international study to determine how society will function with a massive drop in the available jobs. Better to start such a  study now than wait till we have food riots in the streets.

Better if it was applied internationally - to offset immigration pressures.

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preacherman76
11 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

The things ive read have been more near-future based and the goal is to pay for it with taxation of industries that have moved to robotics or AI rather than human employees. 

That combined with a cut in the DOD budget and tax revenue from legal marijuana and its doable. 

At what % would they have to tax those companies? How many companies are fully automated? I highly doubt the numbers add up. I mean why have a fully automated company if they don’t let you keep any money? 

I think the last thing we need is to have several million more people who do nothing. 

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preacherman76
14 hours ago, aztek said:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/video/2020-democratic-presidential-candidate-calls-145823230.html

 

with promises like that it only guarantees trump's win, again. great job democrats,  what security measure they will come up in 2020, collusion circus failed, what is next, lol

Don't underestimate liberals demand for a utopia. If Hillary hadn't screwed Bernie, He'd most likely be president right now. In a strange way its actually something to thank her for.

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RavenHawk

10% VAT so that we all can get $1000 a month?  Sounds fishy.  At 10%, consumer prices will go up and employee wages will stagnate.  And we'll all be at the same place we were before.  Product and services are provided by business.  And most of that is small business which means that the profit of that business usually goes toward supporting one family.  When you cut into their margins, they have to increase their prices or provide less product or service.  At some point it becomes unprofitable to stay in business.

This UBI sounds like the ultimate intent is to provide for everyone on a global scale.  How long do you think that will stay solvent?  In this country, the majority of people still hold a pretty good work ethic.  But you start looking at these $-hithole countries with high poverty and poor work ethic, you'd have to institute higher and higher VATs.  Places like Finland have small populations and the workforce is very thrifty.  But how soon will it follow in the way of Portugal and Greece?  What do you think will happen when everyone is dependent on the government?

Wealth of a nation must be accumulated, not squandered and that what this UBI does.  It is unsustainable.  I've posted this before, but it is one of those things that remains relevant in threads like this.  But don't just watch this clip, follow up and google "Tragedy of the Commons" to get some basic understanding of what an economy is and how it works.  Sharing dividends is great but they come after operating costs.  imposing taxes does not alleviate operating costs.

 

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Farmer77
6 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Wealth of a nation must be accumulated, not squandered and that what this UBI does.  It is unsustainable.  I've posted this before, but it is one of those things that remains relevant in threads like this.  But don't just watch this clip, follow up and google "Tragedy of the Commons" to get some basic understanding of what an economy is and how it works.  Sharing dividends is great but they come after operating costs.  imposing taxes does not alleviate operating costs.

I think the AI revolution is changing the paradigm which you're discussing.  We need to get ahead of the situation before we are in the same spot we are with FB and google , trying to figure out how to catch up with a quickly changing landscape.  Only this time the potential carnage goes way beyond being hounded by targeted advertising. 

 

 

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