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aztek

2020 Democratic presidential candidate

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RavenHawk
13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Does not return on capital increase more quickly than wages increase?  It takes more than string work ethic or people working multiple jobs would be wealthy.  The increases in worth of my 401K have far exceeded increases in salary for the last 20 years, even counting promotions.

Strong work ethic is laudable, but is not enough.  It is a carrot on a very long stick to think it is enough.

It starts with a strong work ethic.  Strong work ethic builds that capital increase.  The rate varies from venture to venture.

 

This would be a good place to mention something else.  There seems to be a few here with a severe case of wealth envy.  They are distraught over the child inheriting their parent’s fortune and then in turn squandering it.  For one, it is none of their business, although it is disheartening to see that kind of waste.  The point is that it not only takes a strong work ethic to build an empire, but it also takes a strong work ethic to hold on to it.  But it is ultimately up to the individual to determine what they will do with it.

 

Look at Trump, he took $10 million his father left him and he made it into billions.  Some would scoff and say “yeah, but he had $10 million”.  People have no concept of what just one billion is.  It’s never the amount you have but what you do with it.  This is basically the parable of the Talents.  Let’s see if I can paraphrase on the fly.  A Master had 3 servants.  He was going away for a long time.  To the first Servant, he gave 10 talents and told him to do whatever you please.  To the second, he gave 5 talents and said the same to him.  The third Servant was given 1 talent with the same instructions.  After the Master left, the first Servant invested those 10 talents and made another 10.  The second Servant invested his 5 and doubled his.  The third Servant was afraid of losing the 1 talent and buried it to keep it safe till the Master’s return.  On the Masters return, the first two Servants told of what they had done and the Master praised them.  When the third told of what he had done the Master became angry because the Servant had squandered an opportunity.

 

Trump didn’t squander his opportunity.  He worked his butt off to build his future.  And he passed on that same work ethic to his children, although at this point in time, Baron is a question mark.  They have grown to exploit their own opportunity and work ethic to make a life for themselves.  We all should learn from Trump’s mindset and make it our own.  We should see this as an opportunity.  Let’s not bury whatever talents we may have because even those among us with just 1 talent can build a fortune with a strong work ethic.

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aztek
14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Are you including our Founding Fathers in that?

yes. they became rulers of new independent from the crown country,  

 

16 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

There was a story about this once.  Everybody got free food and housing.  The free food was bug protein.  The incentive to work was buying steaks.

so they were drugged\mind controlled into working,   

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, aztek said:

so they were drugged\mind controlled into working,   

no more than capitalism is mind control and drugging.   It was only a story aztek.  The author's point was that even if there was a guarantee of  a basic living standard many people would choose to do work to do better for themselves and get more out of life.  i don't know about you but I would.

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Tatetopa
3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

It starts with a strong work ethic.  Strong work ethic builds that capital increase.  The rate varies from venture to venture.

Partial agreement.  Strong work ethic starts the ball rolling, it takes intelligence and judgement to build capital.  Not everybody that earns or is given $1,000,000 dollars makes the same use of it. Lottery winners for example. Back to your parable of the talents, the servants all started with the same amount.  It was how they chose to use it that mattered. 

Plenty of people I work with didn't save as much and put into the stock market as I did.  They made the same amount of money and put it into 4 wheelers and campers and boats.  I am not financially brilliant, but I know how to be persistent and delay gratification.

Now about this wealth envy, I don't deny it exists.  But there is another side of it: wealth wariness. I am secure and comfortable.   I don't care if kids squander their parents fortune.  My son is free to do that after my wife and I pass, There will be enough left for him to do that or use his computer science degree and some seed money to start his own business.  I don't care if Paris Hilton's dog purse cost $10,000.   What I care about is wealth being turned into power.  If Monsanto or some other company  was successful in lobbying for a law that prohibited me from saving seeds from my best beans, peppers, and tomatoes, I might become a criminal. If Paris Hilton was successful in getting a law passed to prohibit neighborhood apple trees because her dog is allergic to them, I would be upset. 

There are a lot of people that just want things.  I know that.  I am more interested in equal rights under the law and opportunities than things.  You may not care about seeds and fruit trees and such, but what if you were totally  free to buy an assault rifle only IF you had a $50,000 dollar permit?  You would still be free to exercise your Second Amendment rights, you would just have to be a hard working capitalist with a strong work ethic.

Don't get me wrong Ravenhawk, I am totally in favor of a strong work ethic.  It is not enough to guarantee our freedom and prosperity though..   

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F3SS

That’s a bit on the extreme side. $50k is a hell of an infringement. 

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RAyMO
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

you were totally  free to buy an assault rifle only IF you had a $50,000 dollar permit? 

Well, now there is the solution to gun control. limits access and maintains the 2nd amendment tres bien  - ;)

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aztek
4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

no more than capitalism is mind control and drugging.   It was only a story aztek.  The author's point was that even if there was a guarantee of  a basic living standard many people would choose to do work to do better for themselves and get more out of life.  i don't know about you but I would.

i'm not sure what point you making, those who want better life already do work harder and get it.  

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F3SS

Actually that’s wrong. The second has already been screwed with and infringed via permits and such. The second being a special case because it applies to a physical thing a default price is already attached to it. The cost of buying the gun. In any other case though, a monetary cost can not be attached to a right. Just look back to voter id threads. Voter id is suppressive because an id costs money. Therefore the poor can’t vote. Ok, id’s will be provided for free in voter id states, which they are. People who can’t leave their house can’t get an id. Ok then they have to mail in the form to receive an id in the mail. Oh but mailing the form requires postage and you can’t attach cost to the right to vote. Fine, the postage is prepaid then. These are actual arguments I’ve had about voter id. Absurd as it some of it is I do agree that it shouldn’t cost money and if you really want or need that stuff at no cost then it’s available. 

Cant afford a lawyer? The state will provide one. So why does the second take a backseat in this regard? I’m not fully against permits and such but it is what it is and it’s an infringement. Suppressive one might say. And you guys only want the upper class to afford guns with $50k permit fees? That’s not suppressive? Sounds pretty classist to me. You don’t want the poor to be able to defend themselves. Only the rich have the means to personal protection in your ideal.

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aztek

how about 50k permit to use intrnet

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F3SS
1 hour ago, aztek said:

how about 50k permit to use intrnet

Over a lifetime that’s about what a monthly internet bill will cost. Honestly, I think it costs way more especially if we include mobile data plans. Many of us pay two bills a month for the internet. Damn I never put the cost into perspective like that. 

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AnchorSteam
5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

There are a lot of people that just want things.  I know that.  I am more interested in equal rights under the law and opportunities than things.  You may not care about seeds and fruit trees and such, but what if you were totally  free to buy an assault rifle only IF you had a $50,000 dollar permit?  You would still be free to exercise your Second Amendment rights, you would just have to be a hard working capitalist with a strong work ethic.

So, only the Rich can have guns, eh?

That fits with the Left-Wing ethos, every big Star and every Big Politician advocating disarming citizens is guarded by ARMED men 

Eliteism  uber alles, once again.

Lefties sure despise the common man's rights, but they sure don't believe in any limits on the powers and privileges of those they elevate above themselves. 

5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Don't get me wrong Ravenhawk, I am totally in favor of a strong work ethic.  It is not enough to guarantee our freedom and prosperity though..   

NOTHING guarantees that!

Not unless you micro-manage every aspect of everyone's lives for every moment of their lives.... and even then there is no guarantee!

Even if the Govt could get such an all-encompasing program to work (it would be a first)  you can't just walk up and smack the crack-pipe out of someone's hand or save them from every other mistake they could make.

They would probably kill you if you tried, and they have every right to do so. 

And that is just what it would take to Guarantee prosperity for all.

However, it is easy to guarantee Freedom. Drop the control-freak approach to everything and just let people be.

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preacherman76
On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:32 PM, Tatetopa said:

Are you going to have a law about that or let the free enterprise system take its course?  If you depend on capitalism, what company would want to give up the automation advantage?

Think about the guy in the freight hauling business.  When AI matures and self driving trucks take over, why will he need drivers.  His trucks will be on the road 24 /7  Nobody calls in sick, quits or has a baby.    He could probably lower his rates and out=compete human operated vehicles.  Why does he care if a bunch of unemployed guys can't buy groceries?

Think about the grocery store manager.  With stocking robots and receiving robots operating all night and self checkers operating all day, he can outcompete the heave labor costs of other stores.  Why does he care about a bunch of unemployed guys who can't buy groceries?  With less overhead, he can sell less and still make more money.

Why does a major stockholder in Ford or GM care if a bunch of unemployed guy cant afford cars?  Robots are cheaper, sales are down profits are up.

If a robot can build multi-story buildings complete with wiring, plumbing, and finishing, why would construction companies care about a bunch of unemployed guys who can't buy groceries?  They are competitive and making lots of money.

I don't think the trend will stop because of good judgement, common sense, or humanitarian concern for our fellow men.  I think it might go all the way to collapse.

No laws will be made over it. Not that I could see anyway. At first it will see seem like a good thing to the first few companies, till enough people are pushed out, and most people can no longer afford to buy their products.

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RAyMO
44 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

No laws will be made over it. Not that I could see anyway. At first it will see seem like a good thing to the first few companies, till enough people are pushed out, and most people can no longer afford to buy their products.

I agree with your point - but it will happen - one company will try it - they will lower prices - plenty of people will still have jobs - so probably big boost to their company. Other companies will feel forced to follow suit and very quickly we will be in a downward spiral with many personal tragedies (job / home losses) before someone has the courage to force a change of direction. Individual companies will not give up short term competitive advantage for the longer term advantage of the economy. Under the current model they will cease to exist if they did.

This is a very important issue that needs addressed before it happens - wait till it starts and it will be already too late for many millions.

Edited by RAyMO
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Tatetopa
16 hours ago, RAyMO said:

I agree with your point - but it will happen - one company will try it - they will lower prices - plenty of people will still have jobs - so probably big boost to their company. Other companies will feel forced to follow suit and very quickly we will be in a downward spiral with many personal tragedies (job / home losses) before someone has the courage to force a change of direction. Individual companies will not give up short term competitive advantage for the longer term advantage of the economy. Under the current model they will cease to exist if they did.

This is a very important issue that needs addressed before it happens - wait till it starts and it will be already too late for many millions.

Capitalism and corporations do not operate as a monolithic entity.  It is every corporation for itself.   Raymo has the right of it.  Corporations will not quit advancing because other corporations are left by the wayside.

Consider our most recent recession/ housing bubble collapse.  Not one of the  investment banks put the brakes on selling bundled mortgage based securities even when they knew there were an increasing number of bad mortgages in the bundle. Several of the biggest went out of business and we had to bail out the rest.  Except for the guys on top and the first to get out,most of the country was negatively affected.  Those were really financial and service sector businesses, but still the cascade if job losses spread to other sectors. I don't think any investment banker expressed remorse that Ford couldn't sell cars and had to be bailed out too.

For a more labor related example, consider the revolution in agriculture.  In 1890, roughly 42% of the population were farmers or agrarian workers.   In 1990 the number was 2%.  Automation, tractors, improved machinery and farming techniques like fertilizer made the other 40% unnecessary.  Most of those folks migrated to the cities and urban areas for factory jobs, making things for Henry Ford and Thomas Edison.  Now automation will push them out of factories.  There isn't much of a place to jump.  It is not good enough to say something will come along, a solution needs to be found now.  The technologies of 10 and 20 years in the future have to begin in the present.

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AnchorSteam
13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Capitalism and corporations do not operate as a monolithic entity. 

It isn't Capitalism when they do, but they can and it is called Crony-Capitalism when that happens.

See G.E. during the Obama years.

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Consider our most recent recession/ housing bubble collapse.  Not one of the  investment banks put the brakes on selling bundled mortgage based securities even when they knew there were an increasing number of bad mortgages in the bundle. ...

It would have been illegal for them to do so. 

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

For a more labor related example, consider the revolution in agriculture.  In 1890, roughly 42% of the population were farmers or agrarian workers.   In 1990 the number was 2%.  Automation, tractors, improved machinery and farming techniques like fertilizer made the other 40% unnecessary.  Most of those folks migrated to the cities and urban areas for factory jobs, making things for Henry Ford and Thomas Edison.  Now automation will push them out of factories.  There isn't much of a place to jump.  It is not good enough to say something will come along, a solution needs to be found now.  The technologies of 10 and 20 years in the future have to begin in the present.

How do we do that, unleash NASA and get on with getting into outer space?

 

The fact that we are going to be short of jobs and totally lacking in unskilled labor positions makes all this immigration and illegal intrusion look pretty dodgy, don't you think?

 

And BTW.... I looked at the title of the thread and I have to wonder.... are there no Democrat candidates for 2020?

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Farmer77
On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:10 AM, AnchorSteam said:

It is starting to feel like I am going off topic, but who would the Dem's candidates be?

 

Do they have anyone under 70 that anyone likes?

Kamala Harris was the front runner for a while but I think the more viable younger candidates, including her, are hedging their bets as they wait to see what the party does. If it tries to remain "GOP lite" I have a hard time seeing anyone but a kennedy/clintonite running probably  McAuliffe, if it follows the lead of the voters and veers harder to the left I think you're going to see a good batch of young candidates. 

And of course there is the ****ing Rock. If he runs, he'll most likely win regardless of party. Go Merca! :cry:

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Farmer77
On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 1:25 PM, RavenHawk said:

Look at Trump, he took $10 million his father left him and he made it into billions. 

I think your dear leader would call this "fake news" . He took over his fathers company which was already worth 200 million dollars.  

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 1:25 PM, RavenHawk said:

Trump didn’t squander his opportunity.  He worked his butt off to build his future.  And he passed on that same work ethic to his children, although at this point in time, Baron is a question mark.  They have grown to exploit their own opportunity and work ethic to make a life for themselves.  We all should learn from Trump’s mindset and make it our own.  We should see this as an opportunity.  Let’s not bury whatever talents we may have because even those among us with just 1 talent can build a fortune with a strong work ethic.

Man you have truly built a mythology around the guy :lol:

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Vlad the Mighty
3 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Kamala Harris was the front runner for a while but I think the more viable younger candidates, including her, are hedging their bets as they wait to see what the party does. If it tries to remain "GOP lite" I have a hard time seeing anyone but a kennedy/clintonite running probably  McAuliffe, if it follows the lead of the voters and veers harder to the left I think you're going to see a good batch of young candidates. 

And of course there is the ****ing Rock. If he runs, he'll most likely win regardless of party. Go Merca! :cry:

I think her from hawaii, Tulsi Gubbard, would definitely be up there.

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RavenHawk
12 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

I think your dear leader would call this "fake news" . He took over his fathers company which was already worth 200 million dollars.  

I think you are missing the point.  I’ve heard several stories and they don’t matter.  The point is that he took something very meager and worked his butt off to build it into an empire.  He wasn’t some spoiled rich kid squandering what dear old dad gave him.  He surpassed his father.  Isn’t this what all parents wish for?  Trump may not be ideal but he is the ideal model.

 

Man you have truly built a mythology around the guy :lol:

And you’ve build a mythology of victimhood.  Of defeatism.  That’s from the previous Administration.  Haven’t you grown tired of it?  Instead of lamenting on what you lack and shortcomings, why not delve into all the great things you could achieve? 

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acidhead

It's easier to criticize those who have achieved more than you

As do most all Trump criticts.

Whatever....

He is our God Emperor.

Those who do bow the lowest.

Now...

Bow to your King

Edited by acidhead

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AnchorSteam
1 hour ago, acidhead said:

...

Bow to your King

You are sounding WAY too much like the Democrats did from 2008-2016.

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Farmer77
6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

think you are missing the point.  I’ve heard several stories and they don’t matter.  The point is that he took something very meager and worked his butt off to build it into an empire. 

No he didn't he was given the empire when it was already worth 200million dollars

6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

And you’ve build a mythology of victimhood.  Of defeatism.  That’s from the previous Administration.  Haven’t you grown tired of it?  Instead of lamenting on what you lack and shortcomings, why not delve into all the great things you could achieve? 

So pointing out the factual errors in your thinking somehow makes me a victim? :lol: Are you just throwing around foxnews buzzwords at this point ? 

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RavenHawk
3 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

No he didn't he was given the empire when it was already worth 200million dollars

And you’re still missing the point.  You have no sense of the value of money.  That sounds like a Progressive.  Trump is hardly the richest.  His net worth is $3.1billion.  That’s the 766th richest person in the world.  $200million doesn’t even begin to crack the upper echelon of wealth.  These numbers are staggering.  You don’t get here without hard work.

 

So pointing out the factual errors in your thinking somehow makes me a victim?  Are you just throwing around foxnews buzzwords at this point ? 

Any so-called factual errors are meaningless.  The point isn’t what Trump began with, it’s what he ended up with.  Even if he only started out with $1 dollar, the point is, he probably would have still created an empire.  The point is that he is successful.  It’s not the numbers that make me think you are a victim.  It is the fact that you fear success and want to wallow in victimhood all on your own.  And you’re the one bringing up foxnews to hide from the facts.  What a waste.  We need to be trying to change our thinking from that “you didn’t build that” mentality and start thinking about being successful.  It all begins with the right thinking.

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Farmer77
32 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

And you’re still missing the point.  You have no sense of the value of money.  That sounds like a Progressive.  Trump is hardly the richest.  His net worth is $3.1billion.  That’s the 766th richest person in the world.  $200million doesn’t even begin to crack the upper echelon of wealth.  These numbers are staggering.  You don’t get here without hard work.

Um, you actually believe you know what his net worth is? Dude's been lying about it for decades. 

35 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Any so-called factual errors are meaningless.  The point isn’t what Trump began with, it’s what he ended up with.  Even if he only started out with $1 dollar, the point is, he probably would have still created an empire.

Hahaha I swear to GOD the political scales from 1999 to today have completely flipped. 

Now its "conservatives" who claim facts don't matter, just how the words used make you feel :lol: . I get that you feel Trump is a great man , that you feel Trump would be rich if he wasn't born rich but ill let the facts form my opinions rather than feelings :tu: 

 

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RavenHawk
14 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Um, you actually believe you know what his net worth is? Dude's been lying about it for decades. 

I’m going with what Forbes lists.  I have no reason to believe otherwise.  The actual amount really isn’t that important.  Of course, you have a theory about that.  Putin floated a loan to Trump’s father expecting a payoff many years later…

 

Hahaha I swear to GOD the political scales from 1999 to today have completely flipped. 

How so?  The scales have been tipped in favor of the Progressives since Reagan.  The core of this country is still primarily Conservative.  And in time, as Americans age, they become more established and Conservative.  That’s why Progressives are for open borders.  As long as they have a subjugated populace, they have a chance.

 

Now its "conservatives" who claim facts don't matter, just how the words used make you feel  .

Facts do matter.  Progressives should try and learn that.  There are facts and there are facts.  Saying the Moon is almost full tonight is a fact, but it has nothing to do with the fact that it is secure in its orbit around the Earth.  That’s a fact that is a bit more important.  Where Trump got his stake from and how much is not important.  Did he get only $1 million, $10 million, a business worth $200 million?  It really doesn’t matter, does it?  Whatever he got, he turned it into billions which is something far greater than his father had.  That is the pertinent fact here.  The message here is that is doesn’t matter what you have or where you start, as long as you have good character and a strong work ethic, there is nothing that can stop you.

 

I get that you feel Trump is a great man ,

I know his character.  It is strong and honest.  That is a breath of fresh air from the previous Administration and the opponent from the last election.  Hopefully, you aren’t doing something as foolish as confusing character with being a NY businessman?

 

that you feel Trump would be rich if he wasn't born rich

Yes, he would because of his character and his work ethic.  You could strip him of everything and he would still rise to the top.  All of us can learn a lot from him.  Hopefully, he’ll have 8 years for that to rub off on the next generations.

 

but ill let the facts form my opinions rather than feelings  

My feelings are proven stronger than your opinions.

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