Home invasion repelled with guns

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 29/04/2018 at 2:08 PM, F3SS said:

Guns save lives (1) created by me was locked due to a period of inactivity and Saru messaged me to say it was taking up too much space but that I was welcome to begin part 2. So I did I’m sure it’s still here. The member sweetpumper almost single handily took the reigns and kept the thread going and I haven’t seen him for a long time so that’s why it’s probably way down the list. Prior to the Russia thread guns save lives part one was the longest thread in the us/us politics section.  

Edit: yep it’s still here. For nastalgia, here are the links. https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/244653-guns-save-lives-thread/

 

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/287178-guns-save-lives-part-2/

You do know if you resurrect that thread, it’s sister thread “Nuns Save Lives” will also have to be reborn.

[internetperson]

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Seems to be a confused point, most of the links I find only say yelling and noise, nothing about shooting. 

Fair enough, that being said 'exchanged gunfire' doesn't suggest who fired first.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/30-rounds-fired-by-ar15-in-florida-home-invasion-shootout

"In stormed a masked gunman who fired off a single round before two of the men inside, one armed with an AR-15 rifle and the other with a handgun, emerged from two bedrooms and opened fire."

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I'll never understand how people can think shooting a 16 year old is OK. 

I'm not going to debate this point any longer. I don't mean that in any negative connotation we just will have to agree to disagree.

[aztek]

lol, again someone who is half the world away ,thinks he knows better what we should do in our home. 

[psyche101]

10 hours ago, internetperson said:

Fair enough, that being said 'exchanged gunfire' doesn't suggest who fired first.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/30-rounds-fired-by-ar15-in-florida-home-invasion-shootout

"In stormed a masked gunman who fired off a single round before two of the men inside, one armed with an AR-15 rifle and the other with a handgun, emerged from two bedrooms and opened fire."

I'm not going to debate this point any longer. I don't mean that in any negative connotation we just will have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough. 

[psyche101]

10 hours ago, aztek said:

lol, again someone who is half the world away ,thinks he knows better what we should do in our home. 

Do what you want, I just don't agree that this is a case of guns saving lives, it's a sad story of guns taking lives, needlessly again. 

[aztek]

Just now, psyche101 said:

Do what you want, I just don't agree that this is a case of guns saving lives, it's a sad story of guns taking lives, needlessly again. 

oh yes, that is exactly what they do, i do not deny it. by taking a life someone who was a threat to mine i save mine, guns turn tables around. i would not say it is needless, unfortunate, yes, but there is a very clear need for that

 

there is nothing wrong with shootings, as long as right people get shot.

Edited April 30, 2018 by aztek

[psyche101]

44 minutes ago, aztek said:

oh yes, that is exactly what they do, i do not deny it. by taking a life someone who was a threat to mine i save mine, guns turn tables around. i would not say it is needless, unfortunate, yes, but there is a very clear need for that

The paranoia that gun culture breeds results in needless deaths like this. 

44 minutes ago, aztek said:

there is nothing wrong with shootings, as long as right people get shot.

And I just don't think that's a call an individual can make. Too many factors can too easily turn a judge jury and executioner into the wrong decision. And I feel that was the case in this instance. 

[preacherman76]

25 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

The paranoia that gun culture breeds results in needless deaths like this. 

And I just don't think that's a call an individual can make. Too many factors can too easily turn a judge jury and executioner into the wrong decision. And I feel that was the case in this instance. 

I’m sure the people who’s home was violated don’t much care what you or anyone else feels about it. They are alive, no thanks to those who would have rather they had no way to defend themselves. 

[psyche101]

7 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

I’m sure the people who’s home was violated don’t much care what you or anyone else feels about it. They are alive, no thanks to those who would have rather they had no way to defend themselves. 

They are pathetic IMHO, they took lives and put a kid in hospital. I don't care what they think of that either, if there was gun regulation in place, nobody would have been dead or in mortal danger. They are alive because they pumped rounds into kids rather than teach them a lesson. It's more than alarming at what little value you and gun culture places in life it's not something to be proud of. 

[aztek]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

 

And I just don't think that's a call an individual can make. 

well it is either you make that call or someone makes that call for you, and it wont be in your favor. that is just how things are, like it or not,  you may think human life is priceless, but some think it ain't worth cash in your valet .

as far as gun culture,  it is, and is been here for as long as america exist,  and it's not going anywhere, you can deny it and be victim or accept it and  live by it.

Edited April 30, 2018 by aztek

[psyche101]

37 minutes ago, aztek said:

well it is either you make that call or someone makes that call for you, and it wont be in your favor. that is just how things are, like it or not,  you may think human life is priceless, but some think it ain't worth cash in your valet .

I get that there are bad people. The problem I'm seeing here is your arming them as well. And that gives them even more confidence. 

37 minutes ago, aztek said:

as far as gun culture,  it is, and is been here for as long as america exist,  and it's not going anywhere, you can deny it and be victim or accept it and  live by it.

A lot of countries started out that way but moved with the times, its stubborn and backwards to refuse change for the better. Fiji started out with headhunters, do you feel that culture should be maintained too? 

[aztek]

12 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I get that there are bad people. The problem I'm seeing here is your arming them as well. And that gives them even more confidence. 

A lot of countries started out that way but moved with the times, its stubborn and backwards to refuse change for the better. Fiji started out with headhunters, do you feel that culture should be maintained too? 

bad guys always arm themselves, in any country, regardless of laws, including yours.

you comparing head hunters with free people who are armed and able to protect themselves????  if that is comparable then i have really nothing more to say

Edited May 1, 2018 by aztek

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, aztek said:

bad guys always arm themselves, in any country, regardless of laws, including yours.

We don't have Facebook fights resulting in dead kids, we don't have schools being shot up. If the top level criminals want to spend ridiculous amounts on the Black market to kill each other, who cares? 

1 hour ago, aztek said:

you comparing head hunters with free people who are armed and able to protect themselves????  if that is comparable then i have really nothing more to say

Its a tradition isn't it? It worked for centuries didn't it and its part of their culture isn't it? They have a right to defend territories don't they? 

That doesnt sound familiar?

Many people don't consider life behind nor at the point of a gun freedom, I don't see how life without need of a gun is not more free than that. I don't consider you free, with weapons involved it's more like your held to ransom. 

But your meandering. Point is, this is not a tale of justice or lives taken. It's a sad tale of young needless death. 

[AnchorSteam]

4 hours ago, psyche101 said:

And I just don't think that's a call an individual can make. ... 

And there lies the fundamental difference between Left and Right that drives this, and so many other, issues.

The Left holds the individual in contempt and places all faith in the Collective, pretty much like the Borg from Star Trek or the defunct Maoists. And I do mean faith, since the concept by itself has fallen flat in every case and continues to fail in practice. 

 

You can delegate authority, but not responsibility. You are responsible for yourself, and giving all of your authority regarding your own personal life may seem easy and safe, but all you are doing is placing yourself in chains. If you want to live as a slave, go right ahead, but don't you DARE cheapen this social discourse by trying to make the rest of us look like lunatics for thinking differently than you do. 

 

And when someone is crashing into your living space with wild eyes and a wide-open mouth promising to do you serious harm, that is not the time to ask for I.D. to verify the age of the person rushing at you with a weapon and violent intent. 

 

You can keep your Unicorns, I'll go with the other three things there. 

[psyche101]

39 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

And there lies the fundamental difference between Left and Right that drives this, and so many other, issues.

I'm an Aussie, we generally have a left and a right to us. 

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The Left holds the individual in contempt and places all faith in the Collective, pretty much like the Borg from Star Trek or the defunct Maoists.

You watch too much TV methinks, tends to make one lose touch with the real world. 

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And I do mean faith, since the concept by itself has fallen flat in every case and continues to fail in practice. 

Well if you call the citizens of a country getting behind a smart incentive to curb deaths, 'faith' then your on your own I'd say. The dictionary won't support your defenition. And how do call an end to gun massacre and no school shootings a fail? 

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You can delegate authority, but not responsibility. You are responsible for yourself, and giving all of your authority regarding your own personal life may seem easy and safe, but all you are doing is placing yourself in chains.

No, its called considering the community above personal wants. 

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If you want to live as a slave,

No slaves here, the concept is quite foreign to anyone in the country, its just a buzz word gun nuts throw at those sensible enough to take matters into their own hands and resolve it. Something that for some reason your country is incapable if doing. 

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go right ahead, but don't you DARE cheapen this social discourse by trying to make the rest of us look like lunatics for thinking differently than you do. 

I didn't, I said this is not a case of guns saving lives its a sad story of guns killing young kids over a Facebook dispute that would not have happened in a country with gun regulation and I stand by that. If your feeling animosity over that then it sounds more like guilt.

Oh and don't dare call people with common sense who act on it and resolve a problen for the benefit of community 'slaves' just because you incapable of curbing the killing yourselves. 

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And when someone is crashing into your living space with wild eyes and a wide-open mouth promising to do you serious harm, that is not the time to ask for I.D. to verify the age of the person rushing at you with a weapon and violent intent. 

No, its when the police should act, that's why we pay taxes to employ them. 

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You can keep your Unicorns, I'll go with the other three things there. 

I'm more than happy living in a truly free society, one so free that gun home defence is a distant memory. 

[F3SS]

Yep because when someone bursts in your door and it’s on like donkey Kong in the blink of an eye the police will be there to interfere. By premonition or minority report technology? It won’t always work out when the police take minutes in a situation where seconds matter. 

[AnchorSteam]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

No, its called considering the community above personal wants. 

I came back to edit the hell out of that post, about 30 seconds too late....

Oh well, and hee we go off the deep end. I guess you and I are really too good at bringing out the worst in each other.

 

And the above irks me, to no end.

Personal wants are not evil, it is simply what we want, and no amount of guilt-tripping for the purpose of making people better little machines serving the State can alter that.

The "community", what is that, exactly?

Who decides what it is, and what each individual must sacrifice to the collective .... which is of course managed by certain individuals that have elevated themselves above everyone else by virtue of their moral superiority.

WHY is the collective superior to the individual's thoughts and ideas?

How does the collective enforce it's will on the individual?

 

IMHO, the balance should favor the individual for Liberty to exist at all, but your attitude towards the individual matches perfectly with the desire to disarm everyone that isn't one of the Government's hired guns.

I prefer the Greek proverb that says "Moderation in all things."

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

 

I didn't, I said this is not a case of guns saving lives its a sad story of guns killing young kids over a Facebook dispute that would not have happened in a country with gun regulation and I stand by that. If your feeling animosity over that then it sounds more like guilt.

I am not responsible for your misconceptions.

And it appears that you are already making yourself forget that the intruders were armed ... how do you do that?

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Oh and don't dare call people with common sense who act on it and resolve a problen for the benefit of community 'slaves' just because you incapable of curbing the killing yourselves. 

Curbing the killing isn't as important to me as having a good life available to the largest possible number of people and reduce suffering to the smallest number possible.

And the evil people are always a small number... but they sure do make all sorts of noises when they get a taste of what they are dishing out!

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

I'm more than happy living in a truly free society, one so free that gun home defence is a distant memory. 

Really?

Seems like Home invasion is still an issue in Australia;

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But at the same time Australia was banning guns and experiencing a decline in gun homicides, America was more than doubling how many firearms it manufactured and seeing a nearly identical drop in gun homicides. That throws a bit of a wrench into the idea that Australia’s gun ban must be the reason for its decline in gun crime.

However, what’s more important is the fact that overall suicides and murder have not “plummeted” in the years after the gun ban. Yes, as with the gun-happy United States, the murder rate is down in Australia. It’s dropped 31 percent from a rate of 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1994 to 1.1 per 100,000 in 2012.But it’s the only serious crime that saw a consistent decline post-ban.

In fact, according to the Australian government’s own statistics, a number of serious crimes peaked in the years after the ban. Manslaughter, sexual assault, kidnapping, armed robbery, and unarmed robbery all saw peaks in the years following the ban, and most remain near or above pre-ban rates. The effects of the 1996 ban on violent crime are, frankly, unimpressive at best.

....

Whatever you think of the merits of Australia’s gun ban or the practicality of using it as a model for American gun control, it most certainly has not caused suicide or murder rates to plummet. Furthermore, Australia has seen violent crimes peak in the years following its ban while the United States experienced the exact opposite phenomenon.

 

 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/03/the-australian-gun-ban-conceit/http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/top-cop-says-sudanese-youths-are-overrepresented-aggravated-burglary/news-story/3789539c3c957348dc077110092194d9

 

"Truly free" includes the right to defend yourself.

I have seen Leftists (I can't call them Liberals anymore, not honestly)  tell break-in victims to just let the robbers "take your stuff".  Is this also your view?

Because if it is, what you will have is a Thug-ocracy ; a system where the most brutal and violent will eventually control all property... such as is the case in the darkest and most vile corners of the 3rd world.

 

Crime in Victoria from 2010 to 2014.^[23]

Type	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014
Homicide and related offences	99	96	89	82	106
Murder	47	53	45	46	58
Attempted murder	49	34	32	30	36
Manslaughter	3	9	17	8	8
Sexual assault	3,629	4,021	4,149	3,920	4,169
Kidnapping/abduction	116	108	120	138	122
Robbery	3,015	3,299	2,975	2,605	2,286
Armed robbery	1,438	1,639	1,529	1,365	1,142
Unarmed robbery	1,574	1,659	1,451	1,237	1,147
Blackmail/extortion	137	119	145	173	154
Unlawful entry with intent	44,410	43,747	47,461	44,915	44,457
Involving the taking of property	31,232	30,987	33,360	31,362	30,446
Other	13,184	12,755	14,099	13,547	14,012
Motor vehicle theft	12,271	12,322	13,593	12,051	13,227
Other theft	111,6334	110,384	115,008	110,568	111,274

[F3SS]

[F3SS]

9 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Who decides what it is, and what each individual must sacrifice to the collective

The government.

9 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

How does the collective enforce it's will on the individual?

 

The government.

 

11 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Truly free" includes the right to defend yourself.

Truly free in Au and U.K. is defending yourself with limited means as defined by the government.

[Kismit]

6 minutes ago, F3SS said:

The government.

The government.

 

Truly free in Au and U.K. is defending yourself with limited means as defined by the government.

Limiting by removing the option of a gun for self defense, is not as limiting as believing only a gun will save you.

[F3SS]

1 minute ago, Kismit said:

Limiting by removing the option of a gun for self defense, is not as limiting as believing only a gun will save you.

I don’t think anyone believes that the only option is a gun in any given situation. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t and sometimes you just don’t know and you’re better off safe than sorry. Not everyone can fight, not everyone can or should get close enough to use a knife or a bat, not everyone can run out of the house with conditions such as injuries, disablements or being elderly. So that begs the question, why should my options be limited? 

[Myles]

15 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Do what you want, I just don't agree that this is a case of guns saving lives, it's a sad story of guns taking lives, needlessly again. 

I disagree in this case.  

Several armed attackers wearing masks were not there to call people names.   They were there to do much worse.  

It's a shame that a young guy lost his life, but it is not by any fault of the defenders.

[psyche101]

17 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

I came back to edit the hell out of that post, about 30 seconds too late....

Oh well, and hee we go off the deep end. I guess you and I are really too good at bringing out the worst in each other.

Not really, it's just a passionate subject. Same thing happens with religion politics, even UFOs. 

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And the above irks me, to no end.

Personal wants are not evil, it is simply what we want, and no amount of guilt-tripping for the purpose of making people better little machines serving the State can alter that.

No, they are not evil but all are not alike either, so we find balance. 

Using silly statements like 'the states little machines' only undermines your argument, we in fact got behind the move, and although a large majority of Americans want better regulation, they are denied. That sounds like your more under the states thumb as a whole, and it's being sold as individual freedoms. 

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The "community", what is that, exactly?

Who decides what it is, and what each individual must sacrifice to the collective .... which is of course managed by certain individuals that have elevated themselves above everyone else by virtue of their moral superiority.

WHY is the collective superior to the individual's thoughts and ideas?

How does the collective enforce it's will on the individual?

Votes. 

Then everyone has a say. We care more for each others safety than what we perceive to be personal threats. Then the whole gets a say, true democracy, real freedom. 

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IMHO, the balance should favor the individual for Liberty to exist at all, but your attitude towards the individual matches perfectly with the desire to disarm everyone that isn't one of the Government's hired guns.

No, my attitude is that of many other who are appalled at the amount of needless death for no good reason. 

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I prefer the Greek proverb that says "Moderation in all things."

That's what regulation does, and what gun regulation has brought to this country. 

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I am not responsible for your misconceptions.

And it appears that you are already making yourself forget that the intruders were armed ... how do you do that?

That's a misconception, it was the result of a bloody Facebook fight. That am 18 year old is dead, and a 16 year old is in hospital is the point. 

Yes, at least 'a' gun was brought to the scene, thats the stupid bravado that gun culture brings and elevates situations like this to a point of life and death. Tha shouldn't happen, and doesn't where gun control is in place. 

Again, in any country with gun control this incident would not have elevated beyond fisticuffs, no dead people, how does that basic point keep avoiding you? 

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Curbing the killing isn't as important to me as having a good life available to the largest possible number of people and reduce suffering to the smallest number possible.

Sorry, but I find that appalling. Having a gun in your house you find worth seeing kids in school shot up, the dubious honor of having the biggest mass murder record in the world and most frequent mass killings, even if you don't agree with this situation, could you look a parent in the eye who lost a school child and tell them that their childs life was worth you having a deadly weapon in your home 'just in case'? 

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And the evil people are always a small number... but they sure do make all sorts of noises when they get a taste of what they are dishing out!

That's for a court of law to decide, not the individual. 

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Really?

Seems like Home invasion is still an issue in Australia;

 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/03/the-australian-gun-ban-conceit/http://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/top-cop-says-sudanese-youths-are-overrepresented-aggravated-burglary/news-story/3789539c3c957348dc077110092194d9

That's a vetting issue to do with immigration, lots of countries who have opened their doors have had worse problems. 

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"Truly free" includes the right to defend yourself.

I'd say truly free is not having to have a deadly weapon in your home. Seems a step further to me. 

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I have seen Leftists (I can't call them Liberals anymore, not honestly)  tell break-in victims to just let the robbers "take your stuff".  Is this also your view?

Depends on the situation, whatever makes sure you come out alive. That's what's important and really protecting yourself and your loved ones, not going down in a hail of bullets over stupid pride and bravado. 

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Because if it is, what you will have is a Thug-ocracy ; a system where the most brutal and violent will eventually control all property... such as is the case in the darkest and most vile corners of the 3rd world.

We don't have that here, it's much safer here without weapons than it is in your country with weapons. 

Quote

Crime in Victoria from 2010 to 2014.^[23]

Type	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014
Homicide and related offences	99	96	89	82	106
Murder	47	53	45	46	58
Attempted murder	49	34	32	30	36
Manslaughter	3	9	17	8	8
Sexual assault	3,629	4,021	4,149	3,920	4,169
Kidnapping/abduction	116	108	120	138	122
Robbery	3,015	3,299	2,975	2,605	2,286
Armed robbery	1,438	1,639	1,529	1,365	1,142
Unarmed robbery	1,574	1,659	1,451	1,237	1,147
Blackmail/extortion	137	119	145	173	154
Unlawful entry with intent	44,410	43,747	47,461	44,915	44,457
Involving the taking of property	31,232	30,987	33,360	31,362	30,446
Other	13,184	12,755	14,099	13,547	14,012
Motor vehicle theft	12,271	12,322	13,593	12,051	13,227
Other theft	111,6334	110,384	115,008	110,568	111,274

How about comparing it to your statistics, and how many dead, 58 is the highest over a year, the Las Vegas shooting alone tops that. One incident with gun culture beats a whole year here. 

And - don't know Australia too well do you. Victoria might as well be another country to me, and a highly concentrated multicultural population. Its a good 20 hour drive from me. I don't like big cities, and don't live in one. I walked my dog last night after 9 pm, and didn't need a gun to do it. That's freedom. 

None of your scrambling has much to do with the fact that this incident is not justice, its an illustration of how gun culture takes lives. Its an awful example to promote gun culture, and the killers are not heroes, they are zeroes. 

[psyche101]

8 hours ago, Myles said:

I disagree in this case.  

That's your opinion and your entitled to it, but I'm not seeing justification for this incident at all. 

8 hours ago, Myles said:

Several armed attackers wearing masks were not there to call people names.   They were there to do much worse.  

Then how come with the element of surprise giving them the advantage, that they ended up in hospital and dead while the killers got 30 rounds out? Why burst in yelling and screaming instead of stealthily taking out the residents? 

That just doesn't add up. 

8 hours ago, Myles said:

It's a shame that a young guy lost his life, but it is not by any fault of the defenders.

It simply would not happen in a country with gun control. This is an example of gun culture gone mad, not justice. 

[psyche101]

18 hours ago, F3SS said:

I don’t think anyone believes that the only option is a gun in any given situation. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t and sometimes you just don’t know and you’re better off safe than sorry. Not everyone can fight, not everyone can or should get close enough to use a knife or a bat, not everyone can run out of the house with conditions such as injuries, disablements or being elderly. So that begs the question, why should my options be limited? 

Because its arming criminals easily, and resulting in the highest dearh counts on the planet, and too many of those deaths are youths. 

It really is that simple. Community, or every man for himself, there's always been more protection and better answers from a community. Two heads have always been better than one, age a whole community compounds that and results in everyone having a say. That's freedom. 

Still, nothing to do with this case. Is that what gun nuts do when backed into a corner? Yell and try to divert the focus to other issues? 

Edited May 1, 2018 by psyche101