Bernie Proposes Job Guarantee

[Paranormal Panther]

It could be that all or most of the posters, in this thread, are right. Life is like that. On the one hand, you have the Horatio Alger stories. On the other hand, you have Americans who are trapped by horrid environments through no fault of their own. Both situations can exist in a country with millions of people. It's best to work and study hard and smart to reach your American dream. That doesn't preserve you from nepotism, and it doesn't protect you from shady bosses. Much of it is within your control, but some of it isn't.

[LightAngel]

On 6/5/2018 at 6:41 AM, Aquila King said:

Actually, I think more people in this nation need to hear more from people living in the Scandinavian region of what life is truly like over there.  But of course whether or not you feel like sharing is all up to you.

 

Yup.

But, I don't have time for childish fights anymore.

I'm tired of people hurting each other instead of listening to each other.

It doesn't matter much what kind of political party we support if we only listen to ourselves.

I believe we should have equal rights, and I think any intelligent person would agree!

[internetperson]

On 5/5/2018 at 11:29 PM, Aquila King said:

You don't know anything about me or my situation, so don't make this personal. Got it?

To be fair, it's not reasonable to say that you don't have the same privileges as other americans then become defensive when folks poke at this logic. You need to explain your situation so others can understand. 

EDIT: Scandinavia is nothing like America. But that debate is going to sound real racist, real fast.

Edited May 7, 2018 by internetperson

[Farmer77]

21 minutes ago, internetperson said:

EDIT: Scandinavia is nothing like America. But that debate is going to sound real racist, real fast.

The problem I'm finding with the homogeneous making Scandinavian nations work argument is we've never treated our population as being homogeneous. We have always had an accepted portion of our society who is viewed as less than. In that environment tribalism is a natural survival instinct and survival instincts are really hard thought patterns to overcome. 

Perhaps if we moved our nation to a more Scandinavian model and gave all citizens equal access to things like education and healthcare  we could break out of that tribalism, which is IMO exactly what this nation needs if it hopes to survive. 

[preacherman76]

5 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

The problem I'm finding with the homogeneous making Scandinavian nations work argument is we've never treated our population as being homogeneous. We have always had an accepted portion of our society who is viewed as less than. In that environment tribalism is a natural survival instinct and survival instincts are really hard thought patterns to overcome. 

Perhaps if we moved our nation to a more Scandinavian model and gave all citizens equal access to things like education and healthcare  we could break out of that tribalism, which is IMO exactly what this nation needs if it hopes to survive. 

I don't know man. Seems like the poor among us, at least over my way, have way better health care then us. Me and my wife were talking about this just the other day. She see's it all the time at her work. Middle class people trying to find a way to pay for hospice care, and often failing, while the poor get the red carpet treatment.

[Farmer77]

1 minute ago, preacherman76 said:

I don't know man. Seems like the poor among us, at least over my way, have way better health care then us. Me and my wife were talking about this just the other day. She see's it all the time at her work. Middle class people trying to find a way to pay for hospice care, and often failing, while the poor get the red carpet treatment.

All I can offer is anecdotes from when I was poor and on Medicaid just a few years ago. I was treated like garbage, everywhere, well not everywhere because many places wouldn't even accept it. So you're forced to go to one of the few places in town that does accept it which , since they're the few in town that take Medicaid, takes weeks to get into and of course the staff no matter how top notch or well meaning when they started are beat down and exhausted from their workloads which lowers the quality of care. 

Truthfully though my concern is as much the shrinking middle class as it is the poor. Now that I'm back working at a professional level we're (family of four) ahead of the income level to receive Medicaid by a decent amount but still a ways from being able to afford anything resembling decent insurance.  If I didn't know for a fact that the rates we are paying for medicines/medical procedures have zero relationship with the cost to produce/ perform them I could accept that paradigm. As is I just cant. 

 

 

 

[Aquila King]

18 hours ago, LightAngel said:

Yup.

But, I don't have time for childish fights anymore.

I'm tired of people hurting each other instead of listening to each other.

It doesn't matter much what kind of political party we support if we only listen to ourselves.

I believe we should have equal rights, and I think any intelligent person would agree!

Most intelligent post I've read in a long while ^

[Aquila King]

15 hours ago, internetperson said:

To be fair, it's not reasonable to say that you don't have the same privileges as other americans then become defensive when folks poke at this logic. You need to explain your situation so others can understand. 

I have explained my situation rather recently actually, and I was hurt massively by some prick who doesn't in the least bit understand or care. That's why I'm done with this political section. That was pretty much the last straw.

No matter what I say or do, no one will ever understand, but more importantly no one will ever even care. So quite frankly, you can all go **** yourselves. Goodbye.

[internetperson]

17 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I have explained my situation rather recently actually, and I was hurt massively by some prick who doesn't in the least bit understand or care.

Sorry to hear that. 

18 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

No matter what I say or do, no one will ever understand, but more importantly no one will ever even care.

Maybe. But regardless hope you feel better.

I have really ****ty health and have gone through many ups and downs so if you need an ear shoot me a PM.

[LightAngel]

6 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Most intelligent post I've read in a long while ^

 

Thank you.

Sometimes all we really need is a little common sense.

[Katniss]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:17 PM, preacherman76 said:

I don't know man. Seems like the poor among us, at least over my way, have way better health care then us. Me and my wife were talking about this just the other day. She see's it all the time at her work. Middle class people trying to find a way to pay for hospice care, and often failing, while the poor get the red carpet treatment.

It may seem that way, but that's not exactly true. People on medicaid and medicare still have to pay for some things on their own which those programs won't pay for. For one thing, there is no eyecare or dental, and most prescriptions usually come out of the pockets of the patient. Some types of X-rays they won't pay for either. So the government doesn't pay for everything like you might think.

Another popular trend going on now in most states are starting up workfare programs to have government funded health insurance, except for the disabled who are unable to work of course.

[+DieChecker]

On 5/7/2018 at 4:43 AM, Farmer77 said:

The problem I'm finding with the homogeneous making Scandinavian nations work argument is we've never treated our population as being homogeneous. We have always had an accepted portion of our society who is viewed as less than. In that environment tribalism is a natural survival instinct and survival instincts are really hard thought patterns to overcome. 

Perhaps if we moved our nation to a more Scandinavian model and gave all citizens equal access to things like education and healthcare  we could break out of that tribalism, which is IMO exactly what this nation needs if it hopes to survive. 

I think one problem is that elements of US Society are LEAD to be separate, by their own leaders. The US is not homogeneous, because almost half the population doesn't want to be homogenized. So, you have factions of these guys, and those guys, and them, and us. The media feeds into this for ratings. The politicians feed into this for votes. Activists feed into this to lobby whatever it is they are protesting. The entire nation functions as a Reality TV show on a national scale.

I would agree that if the US moved toward a more socialist stance, with free education/healthcare/income, that everyone would be better off (possibly). However, the getting from here to there is, for all practical purposes, BEYOND even what the most liberal Representive in Congress has proposed. Politics in the US functions on factualism... keeping people broke into groups of supporters who are fed bias, and who wish to take down the other guy at all costs. So, it is not in US politics' interests to actually HELP the people. If the liberal/progressive Left (in politics) actually cared to help the underprivilaged, we'd not still have historic rates of poverty, undereducation, and uninsurance. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

On 5/6/2018 at 9:29 AM, Aquila King said:

We seem to always have the money to get involved in wars around the world, and give massive tax cuts to billionaires and corporations, but then we are somehow too broke to expand funding for education, healthcare, housing, and infrastructure. It's not about money, it's about priorities.

This is true. But, just look at how the US runs the programs they already do control. The VA healthcare system is a shambles, and a nightmare, when compared to the services/times that regular insurance covers.

Medicare too is ruinous. By some estimates, 10% of Medicare is spent on Fraudulent claims. That is 10% of just under 600 Billion dollars. 60 Billion dollars... That is the national yearly budget of Egypt, Peru or Iran. Squandered by bad management. For something that costs roughly 18% of the yearly budget... And helps 44 million (15%) of the population... That doesn't bode well. If we used the exact same CRAP insurance/healthcare that everyone on Medicare gets... it would cost 18/15 = 120% of the budget, which is already at 112% over Revenues. 

That said, more people could be helped, if the government ran things better. However, I don't trust the government to run anything well, at least not any time soon. Not under the most liberal, or the most conservative, is it run well.

Edited May 10, 2018 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

On 5/6/2018 at 11:43 AM, Farmer77 said:

That's really what this entire conversation comes down to : priorities. 

Its pretty impressive how the DOD has managed to convince Americans that they're an act of nature and cannot be denied. 

OR....

Its pretty impressive how the Welfare State has managed to convince Americans that they're an act of nature and cannot be denied. 

 

[Woodwose]

The US could easily half it’s ‘defence’ spending and redistribute that money into re-education of the unemployed and financial aid in getting businesses started. Hell the government could employ thousands just to clean up the place, scrub graffiti, scrape up chewing gum, sort through recycling to reduce pressure on landfills, and litter picking, they would have good honest work, clean the place up and also have a sense of respect for where they live permenantly instilled. Something is going to have to change sooner or later with the unstopable march of automation anyway. Why not use the currently -and soon to be- unemployed to make the US the envy of the world.

[+OverSword]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:19 PM, Aquila King said:

I have explained my situation rather recently actually, and I was hurt massively by some prick who doesn't in the least bit understand or care. That's why I'm done with this political section. That was pretty much the last straw.

No matter what I say or do, no one will ever understand, but more importantly no one will ever even care. So quite frankly, you can all go **** yourselves. Goodbye.

 

[+OverSword]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:12 AM, LightAngel said:

 

Thank you.

Sometimes all we really need is a little common sense.

Common sense may be that what works for several nations who's populations add up to around 30million or less will not work for one nation of over 300million.  But for the sake of a feel good argument for socialism common sense is usually ignored.

[Krater]

5 hours ago, Woodwose said:

The US could easily half it’s ‘defence’ spending and redistribute that money into re-education of the unemployed and financial aid in getting businesses started. Hell the government could employ thousands just to clean up the place, scrub graffiti, scrape up chewing gum, sort through recycling to reduce pressure on landfills, and litter picking, they would have good honest work, clean the place up and also have a sense of respect for where they live permenantly instilled. Something is going to have to change sooner or later with the unstopable march of automation anyway. Why not use the currently -and soon to be- unemployed to make the US the envy of the world.

1) Some of the "currently unemployed" are unemployed because it's easier to collect unemployment, disability for their "fibromyalgia", welfare, etc.

My wife works at nursing homes (multiple) filled with able bodied adults in their 30's and 40's who are nothing more than welfare/Medicaid/Medicare receiving career drug seekers. They complain of this pain or that and ask for opioids, then get threatening and/or violent when she refuses to prescribe them...all while doing illegal street drugs in their rooms. All government (taxpayer) funded. It's a real big issue in this country. She will often see her "patients" outside of the facility panhandling for drug money.

2) There have been rumblings of automation putting people out of work since the 70's...fear mongering.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Krater

[Katniss]

You mean they would be able bodied if their minds weren't diseased with drug addiction?

[Krater]

29 minutes ago, Katniss said:

You mean they would be able bodied if their minds weren't diseased with drug addiction?

No, I meant they are able bodied adults that choose to indulge in things that feel good and live an easy, lazy lifestyle instead of contributing to society. Working and contributing is too hard, but they've got no problems walking around town all day, panhandling and scoring drugs. At night, they get to stay for free in a government funded drug house.

Don't come at me with that victim sh**. I'm sure we've all had a problem with addiction at some point. I have, and I know for a fact that it's self inflicted. Sure, breaking addiction is hard, but it's a lot easier if you actually want to. Most don't...

Edited May 10, 2018 by Krater

[Katniss]

2 minutes ago, Krater said:

No, I meant they are able bodied adults that choose to indulge in things that feel good and live an easy, lazy lifestyle instead of contributing to society.

Don't come at me with that victim sh**. I'm sure we've all had a problem with addiction at some point. I have, and I know for a fact that it's self inflicted. Sure, breaking addiction is hard, but it's a lot easier if you actually want to. Most don't...

Take a deep breathe sir or ma'am. It's okay. I was just asking question. No need to be upset about it.

So I wasn't talking about them being a victim. Afterall, they are responsible for getting themselves into that position. But I was talking about drug addiction being a disease. This article from Lakeview Health explains it pretty well if you like to know more.

https://www.lakeviewhealth.com/resources/addiction/really-a-disease/

It sounds to me like you expect them to do physical tasks while they are still under their chemical dependency? I wouldn't expect a person to do anything until they got over their addiction, because that's all their brain want's to focus on and it's dangerous in a work environment. So to me they're not able bodied until the disease of addiction is cured. 

[Krater]

Sorry...

In my/our experience, these types have been addicts their entire adult lives (10-20 years or more) and have no desire to change that.  

The government supporting and enabling their behavior is not helping anyone.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Krater

[Katniss]

1 hour ago, Krater said:

Sorry...

In my/our experience, these types have been addicts their entire adult lives (10-20 years or more) and have no desire to change that.

That's true. I've seen that myself, and that's why they classify drug addiction as a disease. Because the chemical dependency screws up their brain so bad that all logic and reason are suppressed. All they know is - when and where is my next fix?  That's about all they can focus on and sometimes it takes some people a long time to get over that. Some drugs are so strong, once they get hooked it's a never ending battle fighting the chemical imbalance for their next fix. It's almost like they're possessed.

Quote

The government supporting and enabling their behavior is not helping anyone.

Well I understand your frustration with the way government sometimes handles these addiction cases. They could always do with much more improvement.

[Tatetopa]

On 4/27/2018 at 9:44 AM, travelnjones said:

eah logistically America is so big that this seems very hard to do.  I mean maybe if they had a civilian conservation corpse type camps to do work.  I don't know what someone living in 30 person town that is 250 miles from any larger city would be able to do. 

You could ask our fellow citizens who live  on reservations how that works out.  It is pretty tough choice, home family, community, way of life or a job.  Maybe about the same for rural America.  Hand outs from the state always come with strings attached.  As aztek hinted maybe, $15 dollar an hour jobs with no benefits isn't much of an answer either.  

Job training would be a good idea. A CCC like operation to rebuild infrastructure would be handy thing for some.  I don't think there is a single universal solution, but it is a problem worth discussing.  I will give Bernie credit for getting it started.   But our society seems to be dying from the roots.  What hurts the poor will move up into the middle class sooner or later.  Factories don't need masses of untrained labor anymore. There are not enough productive jobs to go around.  I hate to see small town America rolling up the sidewalks.  I grew up thinking American values were small town values and family. .

[Farmer77]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 5:18 AM, DieChecker said:

OR....

Its pretty impressive how the Welfare State has managed to convince Americans that they're an act of nature and cannot be denied. 

 

Really ? How so? Middle class and lower income folks pay taxes. Why is it all of a sudden a "welfare state" mindset to want to see a return on those taxes?

You aren't seriously going to try and argue that the amount of money we spend on the DOD is healthy and or reasonable are you?  That killing Gadhafi is more important than fixing our crumbling infrastructure? Or that having troops on the ground in Kenya is more important than our children receiving quality educations? 

I would sincerely hope not. When you look at the individual issues like that rather than viewing everything on a macro left v right level there is some logic behind reprioritizing how we as a nation spend our money.