For or Against Leaving Iran Nuke Deal

[RoofGardener]

1 minute ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

since there was absolutely no evidence that they were pursuing such a thing beyond the militaristic ravings of the usual far-right neocons, it's a question entirely as hypothetical as whether decent folk would have been content to see Saddam continue with his Weapons of Mass Destruction program. 

Umm... sorry... but.. are you REALLY saying that Iran has never sought to develop ballistic missiles, or nuclear weapons ? 

I mean.. really ? 

[Phaeton80]

And the destabilisation of the ME continues..

Oh goody.

Iran, here we come (..again).

[Space Commander Travis]

12 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm... sorry... but.. are you REALLY saying that Iran has never sought to develop ballistic missiles, or nuclear weapons ? 

I mean.. really ? 

Sorry, if you refuse to even think beyond the propaganda there's not really much point trying to discuss anything with you is there. See, what you seem to do, certainly when it comes to Iran and the Blessed Country, (or indeed Russia's Villain Putin), is you seem to not even make the effort to consider these things in any logical kind of way, you just seem to default to the "THEY're all utterly mad and incomprehensible to any rational person, so any questions about whether it'd be at all sensible for THEM to do whatever it is they're currently accused of don't apply, and we can just shriek "EVIL! MAD! INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!". For instance, can you show us your evidence that proves that Israel HAS tried to develop nuclear weapons,. or do you just yell "MAD! EVIL!" and therefore assume that well, obviously they do, don't they, 'cos they're like mad and evil and stuff? Mullahs, that's what they are, they're all mad, Mullahs, and evil, of course.

Sorry, I said Israel there. Freudian slip. I meant Iran of course. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Vlad the Mighty

[RoofGardener]

Just now, Vlad the Mighty said:

Sorry, if you refuse to even think beyond the propaganda there's not really much point trying to discuss anything with you is there. See, what you seem to do, certainly when it comes to Iran and the Blessed Country, (or indeed Russia's Villain Putin), is you seem to not even make the effort to consider these things in any logical kind of way, you just seem to default to the "THEY're all utterly mad and incomprehensible to any rational person, so any questions about whether it'd be at all sensible for THEM to do whatever it is they're currently accused of don't apply, and we can just shriek "EVIL! MAD! INCOMPREHENSIBLE!!". For instance, can you show us your evidence that provokes that Israel HAS tried to develop nuclear weapons,. or do you just yell "MAD! EVIL!" and therefore assume that well, obviously they do, don't they, 'cos they're like mad and evil and stuff? Mullahs, that's what they are, they're all mad, Mullahs, and evil, of course.

Sorry, I said Israel there. Freudian slip. I meant Iran of course. 

Curiously, you elected not to answer my question  

Do you believe that Iran is NOT attempting to develop atomic bombs, and long range missiles ? 

[RoofGardener]

2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

And the destabilisation of the ME continues..

Oh goody.

Iran, here we come (..again).

When was the Middle East EVER stable ?  

[Space Commander Travis]

 

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

When was the Middle East EVER stable ?  

Pretty much all the time really, before the "West" decided to continually interfere in its affairs. 

[RavenHawk]

Just making a slight observation.  This is not a treaty; it is a nonbinding agreement.  It would have to have been ratified by Congress in order to be a treaty.

[Space Commander Travis]

Anyway, it's good to see America's Donald Trump listening and paying consideration to the views of his European allies isn't it. Germ,any's Frau Merkel, France's M. Macron, even Britain's infamously loony left Foreign Secretary Boris "mad hair"Johnson, all had paid the Big Man personal visits to try to get him to listen to their view that the deal ought to remain. And all were completely ignored. 

[RavenHawk]

There are only two reasons to develop ballistic missiles.  One is for a space program and the other is to deliver nuclear or conventional payloads hundreds if not thousands of miles distant.  I haven't seen evidence of a space program.  And I haven't heard where Iran is building up a conventional arsenal.

[Space Commander Travis]

11 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Curiously, you elected not to answer my question  

Do you believe that Iran is NOT attempting to develop atomic bombs, and long range missiles ? 

I have seen no evidence, beyond the risible propaganda efforts of Israel's Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu, that they have. What evidence do you have that they have been? 

[Space Commander Travis]

1 minute ago, RavenHawk said:

There are only two reasons to develop ballistic missiles.  One is for a space program and the other is to deliver nuclear or conventional payloads hundreds if not thousands of miles distant.  I haven't seen evidence of a space program.  And I haven't heard where Iran is building up a conventional arsenal.

if they had, don't you think they might have some justification, seeing that Israel and its loyal poodle the United States of America have never missed an opportunity to declare that their agenda is to destroy it, or at the very least eradicate it as a significant regional power? Does the right to a deterrent or self defense not apply if a country has been decreed by Israel and America to be "mad" and "evil"? 

[Merc14]

46 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

dear lord, you're not still clamoring for Regime Change are you? Look what a success that policy has been wherever it's been tried. ( Sarcastic rolleyes just in case it wasn't clear.) The US had been trying for 35 years to Topple the Mullahs, and they hadn't succeeded yet. Now success was just around the corner was it, if only Obama hadn't signed this disastrous treaty? Do please try to get real. 

If you remember the peoplle actually did rebel biut your president, Obama, failed to aid thenmm in any way so once again you are wrong,. the sanctions did work, Obama's failed policy did not.   Also, the treaty did NOTHING to topple the regime, it strengthened it by dumping billions back into their broken economy and they would've had nukes in a few years as guaranteed by this bill.  You do realize that your party did not support the treaty don't you?     Success was just aroungdthe corner!  LMAO  Please explain what success it was having?

Edited May 9, 2018 by Merc14

[Merc14]

5 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

if they had, don't you think they might have some justification, seeing that Israel and its loyal poodle the United States of America have never missed an opportunity to declare that their agenda is to destroy it, or at the very least eradicate it as a significant regional power? Does the right to a deterrent or self defense not apply if a country has been decreed by Israel and America to be "mad" and "evil"? 

How in the hell do you look in the miirror while supporting the monstrous regime in Iran?  

[Space Commander Travis]

Basically I suppose the United States doesn't seem to care in the slightest what happens to any reputation it might still have for being trustworthy and keeping to its word, and being considerate of, or even aware of, the ramifications of its actions for global trade and the economies of its allies (France and Germany had both just commenced important trade deals with Iran), just as long as the one country it always stays on the right side of is Israel. But isn't there some embarrassment, even if shame might be too much to hope for, at being such a total sycophant? 

[RoofGardener]

12 minutes ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

I have seen no evidence, beyond the risible propaganda efforts of Israel's Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu, that they have. What evidence do you have that they have been? 

Umm... the ballistic missile program, and the acknowledged thousands of centrifuges ? 

I can't be bothered to pull up the quotes from Iranian government sources.... perhaps you could do it for me while I peel another grape ? 

Otherwise I'll do it tomorrow. 

[RavenHawk]

35 minutes ago, Clockwork_Spirit said:

The European Union has moved to protect the interests of its companies that do business in Iran, following the United States decision to withdraw from the 2015 nuclear deal.

If they really wanted to protect their interests, wouldn't they look to having a more stable environment first?  It's kind of short sighted to go business as usual with Iran in the current situation.  Their actions only prolong the inevitable.  The longer it goes on this way, the more capital they will lose.

[Merc14]

Just now, Vlad the Mighty said:

Basically I suppose the United States doesn't seem to care in the slightest what happens to any reputation it might still have for being trustworthy and keeping to its word, and being considerate of, or even aware of, the ramifications of its actions for global trade and the economies of its allies (France and Germany had both just commenced important trade deals with Iran), just as long as the one country it always stays on the right side of is Israel. But isn't there some embarrassment, even if shame might be too much to hope for, at being such a total sycophant? 

Umm it wasn't a treaty, it was an executive order.  No treaty was broken, just a bad deal between the Mullahs and Obama.  BTW, did you know the Iranians NEVER signed the agreement?   That's right, they figured why restrict themselves so not sure how this was an official anything.  Keep up the good work.

[Phaeton80]

Quote

The full White House fact sheet on ending the "Unacceptable" Iran deal can be found here, some excerpts below:

The Iran Deal was one of the worst and most one-sided transactions the United States has ever entered into.

President Donald J. Trump

PROTECTING AMERICA FROM A BAD DEAL: President Donald J. Trump is terminating the United States’ participation in the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) with Iran and re-imposing sanctions lifted under the deal.

• President Trump is terminating United States participation in the JCPOA, as it failed to protect America’s national security interests.
• The JCPOA enriched the Iranian regime and enabled its malign behavior, while at best delaying its ability to pursue nuclear weapons and allowing it to preserve nuclear research and development.
• The President has directed his Administration to immediately begin the process of re-imposing sanctions related to the JCPOA.
• The re-imposed sanctions will target critical sectors of Iran’s economy, such as its energy, petrochemical, and financial sectors.
  • Those doing business in Iran will be provided a period of time to allow them to wind down operations in or business involving Iran.
• Those who fail to wind down such activities with Iran by the end of the period will risk severe consequences.
• United States withdrawal from the JCPOA will pressure the Iranian regime to alter its course of malign activities and ensure that Iranian bad acts are no longer rewarded.  As a result, both Iran and its regional proxies will be put on notice.  As importantly, this step will help ensure global funds stop flowing towards illicit terrorist and nuclear activities.

IRAN’S BAD FAITH AND BAD ACTIONS: Iran negotiated the JCPOA in bad faith, and the deal gave the Iranian regime too much in exchange for too little.

• Intelligence recently released by Israel provides compelling details about Iran’s past secret efforts to develop nuclear weapons, which it lied about for years.
  • The intelligence further demonstrates that the Iranian regime did not come clean about its nuclear weapons activity, and that it entered the JCPOA in bad faith.
• The JCPOA failed to deal with the threat of Iran’s missile program and did not include a strong enough mechanism for inspections and verification.
• The JCPOA foolishly gave the Iranian regime a windfall of cash and access to the international financial system for trade and investment.
  • Instead of using the money from the JCPOA to support the Iranian people at home, the regime has instead funded a military buildup and continues to fund its terrorist proxies, such as Hizballah and Hamas.
  • Iran violated the laws and regulations of European countries to counterfeit the currency of its neighbor, Yemen, to support the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) Quds Force’s destabilizing activities.

More here

Source: Russia Daily

Dear god.. I mean, thats just.. wow.

[RoofGardener]

Just now, Merc14 said:

Umm it wasn't a treaty, it was an executive order.  No treaty was broken, just a bad deal between the Mullahs and Obama.  BTW, did you know the Iranians NEVER signed the agreement?   That's right, they figured why restrict themselves so not sure how this was an official anything.  Keep up the good work.

You're kidding right ? The Iranians never signed the agreement ? Are you SURE ? 

[RoofGardener]

14 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Umm it wasn't a treaty, it was an executive order.  No treaty was broken, just a bad deal between the Mullahs and Obama.  BTW, did you know the Iranians NEVER signed the agreement?   That's right, they figured why restrict themselves so not sure how this was an official anything.  Keep up the good work.

My god.. Merc14 is right..... 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/11/state-department-iran-deal-not-legally-binding-signed/

The reaction of the Iranian government is particularly revealing... 

Quote

....Iranian President Hassan Rouhani discouraged his nation’s parliament from voting on the nuclear deal in order to avoid placing legal burdens on the regime. “If the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action is sent to [and passed by] parliament, it will create an obligation for the government. It will mean the president, who has not signed it so far, will have to sign it,” Rouhani said in August. “Why should we place an unnecessary legal restriction on the Iranian people?”..

"...an obligation on the government" .... "an unnecessary legal "restriction" ? Ye Gods...why are we only discovering this NOW ? The Iranian's had no INTENTION of honouring the agreement.  President Trump was RIGHT to trash this "deal" ???? 

Edited May 9, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Ruddy Hell, I agree with El Trumpo.

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Are you happy with the idea of an Islamic Theocracy possessing a nuclear bomb on a long-range missile ? 

Nope - neither am I happy with some others possessing the same technology, hypothetically speaking. 

[RAyMO]

so now we know what trump is not going to do. What plan does he have for the middle east?

[RavenHawk]

7 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Nope - neither am I happy with some others possessing the same technology, hypothetically speaking. 

Like who?

[preacherman76]

It’s wasnt a treaty. It was another Obama dictator move. If he couldn’t convince his own people to support it, why should we now?