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If The Devil fell from heaven to the earth...


GoldenWolf

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13 hours ago, joc said:

As I have made extremely clear in the Neaderthal thread.  The stories were written by humans.   That should explain everything...shouldn't it?  It is obvious that humans write about themselves and when creating stories of God's, they embellish them with human characteristics such as jealousy, anger, etc.

Then you should understand  the true nature of the god and its relationship to mankind, as seen through the eyes /minds of those story tellers.

In their minds god did not set up humanity to fail.  He was not an evil or hurtful god He created a paradise for humans and gave us free will (in the story)

Our choices are our responsibility not gods.

This particular mythology goes to humans trying to understand the transition from a world of mysticism and nature  as hunters and gatherers, to  one of more material and regulated powers/forces, as settled agriculturalists and animal  husbanders   (made that word up) 

The gods are far more than extensions of ourselves.

They are also  created to help make sense of our own psychological make up and the nature of our  behaviours Eg to explain why we get angry, why we are selfish, why we hurt others, even though we know we should not   Today we know these are atavistic, evolutionary, remnants from our primate past, but to people from 2000 years ago, we were inexplicable  creatures in our complexity and nature.

 Observably  unique in all of nature, the y had to find SOME rationale for how they were, and why they thought and acted as they did.

  Creation stories like Genesis explore the reasoning and philosophical points of view  about who we are, and why we are as we are. 

Edited by Mr Walker
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On 29/07/2018 at 5:09 AM, MysticWolf said:

It's disgraceful.

What ? Nature? it is what is is, and how it must be, as result of evolution . Only humans can do better 

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58 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Then you should understand  the true nature of the god and its relationship to mankind, as seen through the eyes /minds of those story tellers.

You should understand as well..better than I...since you continue to spiel the same stories as though they were the truth. You can teach me nothing Walker.

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The gods aren't created, they are discovered. The very concept of having a choice is an illusion to seperate those who have power from those who don't.

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On 7/28/2018 at 10:06 PM, Sherapy said:

Indeed Rose, the arguments for the problems of evil (logical and evidential) dismantle, null and void the idea of a loving, infinite perfection type god. And, these two arguments have created a lot of atheists. 

Sad to say even the most awful murderers, have fringe cult like worshipers. 

I am with you, if this is really the god it is one heinous monster. 

My apologies for this late response Sherapy.  At first glance it seems that you have delivered a knock-out blow to general theism with this response, referencing these arguments - perhaps the best of them being that of Epicurus.  From wiki...

Epicurus' trilemma

One of the earliest uses of the trilemma formulation is that of the Greek philosopher Epicurus, rejecting the idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God (as summarised by David Hume):[2]

  1. If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
  2. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
  3. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

Although traditionally ascribed to Epicurus, it has been suggested that it may actually be the work of an early skeptic writer, possibly Carneades.[3]

In studies of philosophy, discussions and debates related to this trilemma are often referred to as being about the "problem of evil"."

So......I would like to respond to this, because it seems so logically sound.  

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OK.....so the problem of evil.

First, may I say that there is a problem with the argument based upon the notions of God, and evil.  I'll go with God first.   God, most generally considered to be the creator, or first cause, the Supreme Architect or maker of the Universe.  This definition of God, may or may not be accurate, and it certainly doesn't reflect everyone's beliefs.  But for the sake of argument, let's say that God is as so many think (Jews, Christians, and Muslims for starters), the maker of the universe and all things in it - including us.  

Now evil.  Well, in order to argue against something - it has to be defined.  So, what is evil?  Is it a force?  Is it a being that exists apart from God like the devil, or is it simply the actions that people do?  Or is it something else?

Many of the people who believe in God consider evil to be the violation of divine law.....which would make it an action.  For atheists this is a problem because they don't accept the existence of the divine in the first place, thereby rendering it non-existent by definition.  If there is no divine, then there can be no willful violation of divine law....so, evil doesn't even exist in this sense.

Is evil the devil?  Same problem.  Atheists don't believe the devil exists so evil cannot be the devil or any other "dark forces" as they do not exist - again making the term meaningless.  So, in these cases....there is no such thing as evil.

If I were to stop right there, we could maybe agree that the argument fails as the term evil is meaningless and non-existent.  So, we are arguing against nothing.

TBC

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But, what if evil is simply nothing more than uncaring, unkind, hurtful, harmful, or selfish acts that people do?  Now, evil can be defined.  Evil is the actions of "bad" people.  Or more simply, evil is harmful actions.  So now the situation becomes something more like......how can God allow bad people to exist?  I don't want to say that it's the same reason that God allows good people to exist, because that would be like picking the low hanging fruit, but it does make sense.  If God created a world like this one, and gave people like us the ability to control our own thoughts and actions, then we have the power to choose to do good or evil.  Yes, this creates a situation where evil can and does exist......but it also creates the opposite.

Aside.  So, last night, and yesterday in general I had a really good day.  I don't always have really good days, but yesterday I did.  As I now reflect upon the joys and pleasures of living that I experienced yesterday, I have to ask myself the question......is life worth living?  Is life enjoyable?  Is it awesome?  And the answer is yes, it is sometimes really, really awesome and amazing.  

And then sometimes life completely sucks.

So, it's a dilemma.  Sometimes life is amazing and great, and sometimes life blows.  This leads me to ask the question.....is good better than evil?  Well duh... that's so obvious....of course it is.  So then, the question becomes.....it it worth living a life where joys can be experienced but at the same time sorrows must also be experienced......or would it be better to have nothing.....and never had existed.

So, this is what I would like to ask you Sherapy, and anyone else listening.  Is it better to have existence (even if evil is a part of it) or is it better to have never existed at all?

 

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In the Old Testament it refers to God as having created evil, and cloaking himself in darkness. So, Paul can say he is only light, but he wields darkness as well.

So, I think on terms of evil that it has gravity to another destination in terms of Aristotle's definition of gravity, that some people's soul may be gravitated towards Hell because that is where their true nature is.

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If God created nothing, then there would be no reason to complain.  We would not exist.  But we do exist, and we have the ability to imagine.  We can think of a type of existence where there is no evil.  But, in a place like that there is also no freedom.  So, I think of the atoms....they are not evil or good, they just are; they follow their natural course; whatever that may be.  A rock is a collection of matter; it exists.....but nothing else.

So, we could have been like rocks.....existing yet not knowing existence; good or evil.  In this case, we wouldn't even really exist because we wouldn't know that we do, having no ability to choose our own actions.  

As I think of the twisted things that evil people do; it's easy to say that it's wrong, bad, inhumane, evil....etc.  Yet, if we were to eliminate evil; then we would have to eliminate the choice to do it or it's opposite which would mean that we could not exist.

Or am I missing something here?

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 I think some atoms might be more evil than others, if they come together to make a more destructive element than some other one.

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On 7/29/2018 at 6:34 PM, Mr Walker said:

What ? Nature? it is what is is, and how it must be, as result of evolution . Only humans can do better 

Religion is the end of human evolution.

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On 7/28/2018 at 10:57 PM, Imaginarynumber1 said:

It's the natural way of things

No it isn't.  Religion does not evolve, it is always the same barbaric behavior.

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24 minutes ago, MysticWolf said:

No it isn't.  Religion does not evolve, it is always the same barbaric behavior.

I was referring to when chaos rose said this : 

Quote

 

It's the fact that everything survives by eating everything else. 

It's the fact that there's so much pain and suffering.

 

 

Religion can eat a dick

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8 minutes ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

I was referring to when chaos rose said this : 

 

Religion can eat a dick

Well, yeah, but their point is that a loving God created this system where everything has to eat everything else in order to survive, there is suffering and inevitable death.

That doesn't seem loving to me. 

So either it's all random and thus natural, or if something did create the equivalent of an ant farm...it isn't nice. 

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1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

Well, yeah, but their point is that a loving God created this system where everything has to eat everything else in order to survive, there is suffering and inevitable death.

That doesn't seem loving to me. 

So either it's all random and thus natural, or if something did create the equivalent of an ant farm...it isn't nice. 

I hadn't read the thread.

But the idea of any god is ludicrous, much less one who does the above. The old problem of evil, etc 

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1 minute ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

I hadn't read the thread.

But the idea of any god is ludicrous, much less one who does the above. The old problem of evil, etc 

It's this idea that the ants should be grateful for the ant farm.

But they could be free, if it wasn't for whoever put them in there in the first place. 

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43 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

It's this idea that the ants should be grateful for the ant farm.

But they could be free, if it wasn't for whoever put them in there in the first place. 

If you own an ant farm don't play with uranium, they might turn on you. . 

them02.jpg

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1 hour ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Religion can eat a dick

I wish you could be a little more forthcoming about your true opinions.  lol

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1 hour ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

But the idea of any god is ludicrous

Really?  You think a causal chain can be of infinite length then?

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1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

Well, yeah, but their point is that a loving God created this system where everything has to eat everything else in order to survive, there is suffering and inevitable death.

That doesn't seem loving to me. 

So either it's all random and thus natural, or if something did create the equivalent of an ant farm...it isn't nice. 

I would really like to address your point here ChaosRose, as it has been quite an obstacle for me as well - and I think it to be quite a valid point.  I have to go now, but I hope to be free later.

The point being that life is suffering and everything kills everything else in order to survive.

Spoiler.  I will probably be using some reference to Spock's quote about the good of the many outweighing the needs of the few or the one just for one general counter point.  FYI

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7 minutes ago, Guyver said:

The point being that life is suffering and everything kills everything else in order to survive.

But humans kill for sport and pleasure, no other animal does.

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1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

So either it's all random and thus natural, or if something did create the equivalent of an ant farm...it isn't nice. 

More like some "All brawn and no brain" narcissist mistook some demented form of "might is right" and he is the ultimate badass so he penned himself as "God".

 

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39 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I wish you could be a little more forthcoming about your true opinions.  lol

Inorite?

Imaginary...quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel. 

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33 minutes ago, MysticWolf said:

But humans kill for sport and pleasure, no other animal does.

Have you ever owned a cat?

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28 minutes ago, MysticWolf said:

But humans kill for sport and pleasure, no other animal does.

I dunno...I've seen killer whales play with baby seals.

Cats play with mice for rather a while before they kill them. 

I guess they get around to eating them sooner or later. 

We obviously don't have a corner on cruelty.

We're just at the top of the food chain, (most of the time), so we win for the worst offenders. 

And yeah, other animals don't put trophies on their walls.

They do leave dead things around. Maybe that's a form of trophy. 

Or maybe they're just paying tribute to us. 

I do think they're sometimes getting pleasure out of killing, too. 

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