Italy shakes the EU's Foundations...

[keithisco]

The EU seems to stutter blindly onwards as it refuses to believe that urgent reforms are required, before the whole project collapses around it...

Quote

 

Among the points resumed in 39 pages and published by the Huffington Post, are provisions that would shake the entire European project.

According to the document, a League/5 star government would like to create an opt-out mechanism to leave the eurozone if sanctioned by a referendum.

While such a move would threaten enormous disruption, it might even find support among some other countries, according to Mario Telo, a professor at the European Institute for European studies.

“At the moment [German Chancellor Angela] Merkel and [French president Emmanuel] Macron are facing opposition by Northern countries such as The Netherlands and Finland, who don’t want a reform of the eurozone in favour of southern European countries. The paradox is that the outcome of the conflict between Italy and European Institutions would serve the goal of those Nordic countries, which is creating a smaller eurozone for A-league members and leaving the Mediterranean states out”.

The draft contract also calls for a rewriting of EU treaties and changes to fiscal policies such as the Stability and Growth Pact which restricts countries' borrowing and spending. According to the two leaders' initial verdict, it is ”stringent, unfounded and unsustainable from an economic and social point of view".

A reconsideration of the Italian contribution to the next EU budget and a request to the European Central Bank to freeze €250bn of Italian debt were also on the table.

 

Read more: EuroNews

Edited May 17, 2018 by keithisco

[stevewinn]

The EU will treat Italy as they treated Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland not as members but a colony and as the EU budget adjusts for the UK leaving the EU, EU members will move from being net recipients to net contributors and in those countries who are asked to pay more and those asked to receive less the political mood music will change. so more troubles on the way.

You only have to look at the amount of pain the EU was happy to place upon the citizens of Spain, Portugal, Ireland and especially Greece in order to save the Political institution at all costs. They will have no doubts or concerns in doing the same again with Italy. Italy will need to toe the line, otherwise the German economy as it all to lose.

Its the same with Brexit, the EU wants to impose its own solution on the UK, as if we were one of their colonies and remaining one, thankfully for us we never joined the Euro and we are leaving the political institution (EU)

can any of the remainers tell us what the EU will look like in 5 years time?

 

[Dark_Grey]

2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

can any of the remainers tell us what the EU will look like in 5 years time?

Are remaining countries still scoffing at the UK for leaving?

[Woodwose]

One of the very few times I was proud to be British was when the referendum results were announced. The EU was a noble concept and started with the best of intentions, but now it's just an enormous overly burocratic, one size fits none mess. It's bad enough having to answer to the out of touch, pedophile sheltering ***** all the way down in Westminster, let alone the overpaid, unelected officials off in another country all together. 

[Ozymandias]

5 hours ago, stevewinn said:

... can any of the remainers tell us what the EU will look like in 5 years time?

 

 

[LV-426]

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

 

Did you intentionally leave this post blank as a poignant statement as to what the EU will look like in 5 years time?

[Ozymandias]

7 hours ago, stevewinn said:

... can any of the remainers tell us what the EU will look like in 5 years time?

Just noticed that my last post was empty!! How did that happen? Here's the gist of it again ...

Difficult to say but my best educated guess would be to say that the European Project will certainly be free of one of its least supportive and committed members, namely Britain. Already in Europe, outside of the EU's negotiating team and higher political circles, Brexit has become a non-issue and a nine day wonder. I have fairly regular contact with continentals and aside from knowing that the UK has decided to go but cannot agree what they want, and that the Irish border is a sticking point, they have little real interest in discussing it. It's yesterday's news. That goes for Ireland too. They have some idea of the possible detrimental effects of Brexit on Ireland but they're not directly affected to the same extent themselves. Britain's contribution is 10% of the EU budget. It will be missed but the EU will adapt and move right on. 

It will, I think, embark on some reforms that may even include returning certain powers back to the nation states. It has been too focused on political and economic developments at the cost of its social agenda. Of course, the EU's agenda is the agenda of its constituent states, not what ignorant EU bashers try to portray as some kind of behind-the-scenes elite conspiracy. The European project will prosper because it is the right and only way forward for the people of Europe. It has been in the past and continues to be today. The people of two world wars died, whether they knew it or not, victims of the politics of old Europe.

There is a new Europe now with an enlightened European ideal. Like all ideals it must be fought for and defended. That ideal is under threat from the very thing that caused those wars - cheap nationalist populism - but despite the problems it faces, it has been good for Europe. None of its current 27 member states is seriously considering leaving the union, and many countries are seeking membership while others have special affiliation status. That isn't to say people are not entirely happy but they know that on balance the European project has been good for them. That message will be driven fully home by the example of Britain when it leaves.  

In a globalizing world small and large nations alike need peace, cooperation and stabilty in order to have prosperity and strength. That is even more true now than it has ever been in the past. In five years the EU will still be here, Britain will be out and Project Europe will be on track though somewhat chastened and open to reform. Why? Because its own agenda is always formulated by its member states and they will be under pressure to do that. The EU will deliver but it may take some time.

 

Now Ode to Joy ............. Cue the music and the lyrics ...........

 Europe is united now 

United it may remain

Our unity in diversity

May contribute to world peace.

May there forever reign in Europe

Faith and Justice

And freedom for its people

In a bigger motherland.

Citizens, Europe shall flourish

A great task calls on you

Golden stars in the sky are

The symbols that shall unite us

[LV-426]

2 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Europe is united now 

United it may remain

Our unity in diversity

May contribute to world peace.

May there forever reign in Europe

Faith and Justice

And freedom for its people

In a bigger motherland.

Citizens, Europe shall flourish

A great task calls on you

Golden stars in the sky are

The symbols that shall unite us

Yep, I preferred the blank.

[Ozymandias]

1 minute ago, LV-426 said:

Yep, I preferred the blank.

Thought you might. Nothing more to say, is there?

[keithisco]

10 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

 Europe is united now 

United it may remain

Our unity in diversity

May contribute to world peace.

May there forever reign in Europe

Faith and Justice

And freedom for its people

In a bigger motherland.

Citizens, Europe shall flourish

A great task calls on you

Golden stars in the sky are

The symbols that shall unite us

You got the lyrics wrong...allow me (HINT: Nothing to do with the EU)

Ode to Joy 
translated by William F. Wertz

Joy, thou beauteous godly lightning, 
Daughter of Elysium, 
Fire drunken we are ent'ring 
Heavenly, thy holy home! 

Thy enchantments bind together, 
What did custom stern divide, 
Every man becomes a brother, 
Where thy gentle wings abide. 

Who the noble prize achieveth, 
Good friend of a friend to be; 
Who a lovely wife attaineth, 
Join us in his jubilee! 

Yes -- he too who but one being 
On this earth can call his own! 
He who ne'er was able, weeping 
Stealeth from this league alone! 

Joy is drunk by every being 
From kind nature's flowing breasts, 
Every evil, every good thing 
For her rosy footprint quests. 

Gave she us both vines and kisses, 
In the face of death a friend, 
To the worm were given blisses 
And the Cherubs God attend. 

Joy commands the hardy mainspring 
Of the universe eterne. 
Joy, oh joy the wheel is driving 
Which the worlds' great clock doth turn. 

Flowers from the buds she coaxes, 
Suns from out the hyaline, 
Spheres she rotates through expanses, 
Which the seer can't divine. 

From the truth's own fiery mirror 
On the searcher doth she smile. 
Up the steep incline of honor 
Guideth she the suff'rer's mile. 

High upon faith's sunlit mountains 
One can see her banner flies, 
Through the breach of open'd coffins 
She in angel's choir doth rise. 

Gods can never be requited, 
Beauteous 'tis, their like to be. 
Grief and want shall be reported, 
So to cheer with gaiety. 

Hate and vengeance be forgotten, 
Pardon'd be our mortal foe, 
Not a teardrop shall him dampen, 
No repentance bring him low. 

Joy doth bubble from this rummer, 
From the golden blood of grape 
Cannibals imbibe good temper, 
Weak of heart their courage take. 

Brothers, fly up from thy places, 
When the brimming cup doth pass, 
Let the foam shoot up in spaces: 
To the goodly Soul this glass! 

Courage firm in grievous trial, 
Help, where innocence doth scream, 
Oaths which sworn to are eternal, 
Truth to friend and foe the same, 
Manly pride 'fore kingly power -- 
Brothers, cost it life and blood, -- 
Honor to whom merits honor, 
Ruin to the lying brood! 

Rescue from the tyrant's fetters, 
Mercy to the villain e'en, 
Hope within the dying hours, 
Pardon at the guillotine! 
E'en the dead shall live in heaven! 
Brothers, drink and all agree, 
Every sin shall be forgiven, 
Hell forever cease to be. 

A serene departing hour! 
Pleasant sleep beneath the pall! 
Brothers -- gentle words for all 
Doth the Judge of mortals utter! 

Edited May 18, 2018 by keithisco

[LV-426]

Just now, Ozymandias said:

Thought you might. Nothing more to say, is there?

Not really Ozy.

It's kind of pointless butting heads when views are polar opposites. It just ends up in pointless namecalling and increasingly ridiculous claims to backup a position.

Hopefully we'll both be happy, wealthy and wise in 2023, still posting on UM, and one of us will be doing our best not to say "I told you so..."

[Ozymandias]

2 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Not really Ozy.

It's kind of pointless butting heads when views are polar opposites. It just ends up in pointless namecalling and increasingly ridiculous claims to backup a position.

Hopefully we'll both be happy, wealthy and wise in 2023, still posting on UM, and one of us will be doing our best not to say "I told you so..."

I second that wholeheartedly, except that I think we'll both be saying 'I told you so'! It's the nature of the beast.

[Ozymandias]

8 minutes ago, keithisco said:

You got the lyrics wrong...allow me (HINT: Nothing to do with the EU)

 

Did I? I have never ever looked up the lyrics for the original, or any other, Ode to Joy until tonight and then very quickly. I did not know that those I posted are not official sanctioned by the EU and were only penned fourteen years ago. Schiller's lyrics are not the EU's either. Apparently there are no official EU lyrics at all.  

[Unusual Tournament]

there are serious problems in the Euro zone that just can't be fixed with painful austerity measures. and it will only get harder now that the UK is leaving. If Italy leaves the EU its all she wrote. and you can blame the euro for that. the euro rules need to be relaxed and wholesale debt forgiveness needed to to bring southern Europe up to speed in exchange for economic reforms. 

t

[stevewinn]

2 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

there are serious problems in the Euro zone that just can't be fixed with painful austerity measures. and it will only get harder now that the UK is leaving. If Italy leaves the EU its all she wrote. and you can blame the euro for that. the euro rules need to be relaxed and wholesale debt forgiveness needed to to bring southern Europe up to speed in exchange for economic reforms. 

t

the Euro project not only has problems the whole thing is and was flawed from the very beginning, The only way to save it is full monetary union of its members which includes handing over ALL powers to the EU/ECB, setting the interest rates and all taxes across the entire area, wealth will have to flow out of the richer members into the poorer to try and bring every member to the same standard, which we can safely say it wont be a rise in standards but one of lowering, imagine how well that will go down in the richer members, having to not only allow the free flow of their wealth but also share the debt, a bright future for all in the EU/Euro zone and as the EU institution continues its decline on the world stage. i ask people what possibly is not to like about that.

 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

15 hours ago, stevewinn said:

the Euro project not only has problems the whole thing is and was flawed from the very beginning, The only way to save it is full monetary union of its members which includes handing over ALL powers to the EU/ECB, setting the interest rates and all taxes across the entire area, wealth will have to flow out of the richer members into the poorer to try and bring every member to the same standard, which we can safely say it wont be a rise in standards but one of lowering, imagine how well that will go down in the richer members, having to not only allow the free flow of their wealth but also share the debt, a bright future for all in the EU/Euro zone and as the EU institution continues its decline on the world stage. i ask people what possibly is not to like about that.

 

 

well the EU project is a success just the monetary aspect has failed. pity. going back to national currencies seems like the only path forward. otherwise the entire EU project will collapse. instead becoming a free trade zone only.  

Italy is not Greece and should consider the price Greece has paid and decide whether being a economic vassal state to Berlin for the next 30 years is worth it. they have the means to go it alone and if it left the Euro the EU would be destroyed. now that Britain is leaving the hole would be too large to just plug. 

Britain and trump would love to see Italy crash outta the euro. but i doubt the Germans, smart Americans and the French would be willing to lose their grip on Europe and open the door for the Russians, Chinese to pick up the debt and pieces. 

debt will have to be addressed or those that benefit the most will lose more than Italy.