Still Waters Posted May 24, 2018 #1 Share Posted May 24, 2018 The missile that downed a Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine in 2014 belonged to a Russian brigade, international investigators say. For the first time, the Dutch-led team said the missile came from a Russian brigade based in the city of Kursk. All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in mid-air flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It was hit by a BUK missile fired from rebel-held territory in Ukraine. Russia says none of its weapons was used. But on Thursday Wilbert Paulissen, a Dutch official from the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), told reporters: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44235402 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV-426 Posted May 24, 2018 #2 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Just let me get my post in before the usual suspects claim a dastardly Western plot to discredit and demonize the poor Russian government... 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted May 24, 2018 #3 Share Posted May 24, 2018 in related news, japan attacked Perl harbor by using its planes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted May 25, 2018 #4 Share Posted May 25, 2018 of course it was the Russians just as it was their troops who invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea both of which Russia denied, just as they denied any involvement with flight MH17. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Waters Posted May 25, 2018 Author #5 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Quote Russia is facing international calls to accept responsibility for the downing of flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014, which caused the deaths of all 298 people onboard. Australia and the Netherlands on Friday accused Moscow of complicity in the incident, while Britain’s foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, said the Kremlin “must now answer for its actions”. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/25/mh17-australia-and-netherlands-accuse-russia-of-complicity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted May 25, 2018 #6 Share Posted May 25, 2018 the Russia's answer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 25, 2018 #7 Share Posted May 25, 2018 On 24-5-2018 at 12:52 PM, LV-426 said: Just let me get my post in before the usual suspects claim a dastardly Western plot to discredit and demonize the poor Russian government... And, ofcourse, I am one of those 'usual suspects'. ..And why would that be, one might ask.. Well thats a strange thing actually, it is for the simple reason I have demanded explicit proof used in a court of law to establish the guilt of the accused in the Skripal case, before any penalties and / or sanctions are issued (explicit 'secret' proof btw, that still hasnt been forthcoming). Using a judicial process to establish guilt, as is the case with any criminal investigation in the civilized world. Which certainly isnt irrational, especially given the clearcut fact we have been lied before in a very similar scenario. And yet, curiously, in instances like these, we suddenly dont like to adhere to that fundament of international law, the very thing we like to use to set ourselves apart from the usual non- Western 'Banana Republics'. A rather curious and disconcerting trend. Another curious and disconcerting trend that can be oberved in regards to thesame events is the fact that anyone who doesnt fall in line with the generally accepted narrative, is agressively - and I do mean agressively - attacked / bullied from all sides using the most infantile accusations (ie. 'Russian Stooge'), character assassination, hatchet jobs with extreme prejudice. Unnecessary, uncalled for, and extremely unbecoming. In any case, I'd love to see the provided evidence from this case used in a court of law, and I do hope the Russians will cooperate (if not, implication of guilt); ideally with the whole process being televized on national TV. I'm glad my own government has at least implied their intention to bring this to court (ICoJ), and at least seem to have some concrete evidence backing up their claims. Although I personally dont think it is the unequivocal proof it has been forwarded as ('onomstotelijk bewijs'). I thought the rather desperate call for more witnesses was a peculiar touch as well, given the definitive conclusions verbalised, remarkable. Has anyone here actually studied the provided evidence, or do we think it so obvious Russia is to blame that isnt necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted May 25, 2018 #8 Share Posted May 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said: In any case, I'd love to see the provided evidence from this case used in a court of law, and I do hope the Russians will cooperate (if not, implication of guilt); ideally with the whole process being televized on national TV. I agree this would be the most just outcome. As you say, if the Russians are unwilling to answer with evidence of their own, implication of guilt. I don't understand why a Russian commander would have intentionally slaughtered innocent civilians in a way that would prejudice a huge number of countries against them. What purpose would it serve? I believe they've proven themselves capable of it - KAL 007 - but that was a different time and a different circumstance. This seems more like a rogue element that acted without authority. If that's the case, Moscow would do best to admit it, pay reparations and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 25, 2018 #9 Share Posted May 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, and then said: I agree this would be the most just outcome. As you say, if the Russians are unwilling to answer with evidence of their own, implication of guilt. I don't understand why a Russian commander would have intentionally slaughtered innocent civilians in a way that would prejudice a huge number of countries against them. What purpose would it serve? I believe they've proven themselves capable of it - KAL 007 - but that was a different time and a different circumstance. This seems more like a rogue element that acted without authority. If that's the case, Moscow would do best to admit it, pay reparations and move on. I completely erm.. agree ?! Ok, so Im going to take some time and reflect on this bizar experience, I need to process this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV-426 Posted May 25, 2018 #10 Share Posted May 25, 2018 To be honest, I'm not familiar enough with the finer details to make a call. If I had to guess, I'd say an accident rather than a deliberate act. The problem with the Russians is getting anywhere with investigations due to the "deny everything" policy. Even the pro-Russian posters here must surely see this is the default Russian response in any given situation. Maybe that is true to some degree of all nations, but the Russians turn it into a fine art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted May 25, 2018 #11 Share Posted May 25, 2018 it was a mistake, not deliberate act, rebels shot 2 or 3 Ukraine military planes before. i'm also pretty sure everyone involved who could talk already dead 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted May 25, 2018 #12 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Well, if it's good enough for the Dutch, it's good enough for me ! (saving your presence, Phaeton80) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 25, 2018 #13 Share Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, RoofGardener said: Well, if it's good enough for the Dutch, it's good enough for me ! (saving your presence, Phaeton80) Ofcourse it is Gardener, until similar accusations are issued against a nation you regard to be 'the good guys', Im sure its easily ''good enough for you'. Im quite sure you would be all over the evidence if issued against, say, Israel. Just like you would have demanded a more able body of proof if the tables were turned in the Skripal case. 'Bias' Thats why a judicial process is so important, it deals with facts, not emotion, not bias. Or that is what it should be anyway, lose that; and all bets are off. These are very troubling precedents that have been set, imho. Edited May 25, 2018 by Phaeton80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted May 25, 2018 #14 Share Posted May 25, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said: Ofcourse it is Gardener, until similar accusations are issued against a nation you regard to be 'the good guys', Im sure its easily ''good enough for you'. Im quite sure you would be all over the evidence if issued against, say, Israel. Just like you would have demanded a more able body of proof if the tables were turned in the Skripal case. 'Bias' Thats why a judicial process is so important, it deals with facts, not emotion, not bias. Or that is what it should be anyway, lose that; and all bets are off. These are very troubling precedents that have been set, imho. .. or perhaps it has something to do with the credibility of the source ? The Dutch National Police investigator seems credible to me. That doesn't necessarily mean that he is correct. But I'd give his statement more weight than - say - a response about Israel or "good guys" Anyway... how would a "judicial process" work ? How would you summon the 52nd Anti-Aircraft Brigade into a courtroom ? They wouldn't fit ! Edited May 25, 2018 by RoofGardener 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted May 26, 2018 #15 Share Posted May 26, 2018 7 hours ago, LV-426 said: To be honest, I'm not familiar enough with the finer details to make a call. If I had to guess, I'd say an accident rather than a deliberate act. The problem with the Russians is getting anywhere with investigations due to the "deny everything" policy. Even the pro-Russian posters here must surely see this is the default Russian response in any given situation. Maybe that is true to some degree of all nations, but the Russians turn it into a fine art. It doesn't matter if you're on the wrong side of history as long as you can get people to believe something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted May 26, 2018 #16 Share Posted May 26, 2018 I'm gonna go with what seems to be typical. They did it and they're completely full of ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skliss Posted May 26, 2018 #17 Share Posted May 26, 2018 8 hours ago, and then said: I agree this would be the most just outcome. As you say, if the Russians are unwilling to answer with evidence of their own, implication of guilt. I don't understand why a Russian commander would have intentionally slaughtered innocent civilians in a way that would prejudice a huge number of countries against them. What purpose would it serve? I believe they've proven themselves capable of it - KAL 007 - but that was a different time and a different circumstance. This seems more like a rogue element that acted without authority. If that's the case, Moscow would do best to admit it, pay reparations and move on. I've seen conspiracy theories that have something to do with a group of top Aids researchers who were on that flight being the targets. Not really for sure why .......? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 26, 2018 #18 Share Posted May 26, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, aztek said: the Russia's answer LOL... for the picture. ...of course it was Russia but at what point does Malaysian Airlines take some blame for flying over the war zone??? Edited May 26, 2018 by Captain Risky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 26, 2018 #19 Share Posted May 26, 2018 2 hours ago, ChaosRose said: I'm gonna go with what seems to be typical. They did it and they're completely full of ****. yea, thats about the size of it. what ever happened to a mistake was made, we thought it was a Ukrainian military aircraft flying towards our troops in Eastern Ukraine. we shot it down what can we do to to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted May 26, 2018 #20 Share Posted May 26, 2018 (edited) OP link....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44235402 quote bolded... At a news conference in the Dutch city of Utrecht, the investigators also showed social media pictures which they said traced the route the missile convoy had taken to reach eastern Ukraine. 'social media pictures'........... 'which they say.'......... like that 1:28 minute zoomy in and out so called 'witness video' couldn't be faked..... especially as it has conveniently turned up now - years later.... and on the heels of the false flag Syria chemical attack and the Salisbury Poisoning debacle - Edited May 26, 2018 by bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted May 26, 2018 #21 Share Posted May 26, 2018 On 5/24/2018 at 11:52 AM, LV-426 said: Just let me get my post in before the usual suspects claim a dastardly Western plot to discredit and demonize the poor Russian government... says one of the usual demonizer suspects... nice.little ad hominem to kick off the thread... ..... I've said it before and I'll say it again... I will not be mind controlled into believing that Russia is the enemy - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted May 26, 2018 #22 Share Posted May 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Captain Risky said: yea, thats about the size of it. what ever happened to a mistake was made, we thought it was a Ukrainian military aircraft flying towards our troops in Eastern Ukraine. we shot it down what can we do to to help. Loot the scattered belongings of the victims of the crash. Then upload videos of looting and using looted makeup, as one Russian girlfriend did. Of course it was a mistake, of course they aimed for what they thought is Ukrainian military plane, but what was Russian BUK doing in Ukraine, shooting Ukrainian planes down? By the way, the guy who was in charge is known and alive. It's all over Internet, I'm not posting any links anymore, which may sound strange but we live in strange times indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 26, 2018 #23 Share Posted May 26, 2018 5 hours ago, Captain Risky said: LOL... for the picture. ...of course it was Russia but at what point does Malaysian Airlines take some blame for flying over the war zone??? Wouldnt that be the direct responsibility of the Ukrainian air traffic control? No diversion into or over Ukrainian territory is allowed unless explicitly authorized by ATC, including altitude.. the recordings of which I would be interested to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Waters Posted May 26, 2018 Author #24 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Quote Putin dismisses MH17 findings and says 'of course' Russia is not to blame for tragedy As Western powers point the finger at Russia for shooting down MH17, Vladimir Putin says the investigation cannot be trusted. https://news.sky.com/story/putin-dismisses-mh17-findings-and-says-of-course-russia-is-not-to-blame-for-tragedy-11385434 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV-426 Posted May 26, 2018 #25 Share Posted May 26, 2018 1 hour ago, bee said: says one of the usual demonizer suspects... nice.little ad hominem to kick off the thread... ..... I've said it before and I'll say it again... I will not be mind controlled into believing that Russia is the enemy - No, you'll just buy into absolutely any crackpot story that fits your own narrative instead, to the point that you make posts heartily congratulating Putin on his re-election, along with posts suggesting every government and military agency in your own country is part of some evil plot to discredit him. Meanwhile you dismiss any story whatsoever that dares to tarnish your man. No... that doesn't sound like you are being mind controlled at all... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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