MH17 downed by Russian military missile

[bee]

8 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

No, you'll just buy into absolutely any crackpot story that fits your own narrative instead, to the point that you make posts heartily congratulating Putin on his re-election, along with posts suggesting every government and military agency in your own country is part of some evil plot to discredit him.

Meanwhile you dismiss any story whatsoever that dares to tarnish your man. No... that doesn't sound like you are being mind controlled at all...

 

please don't exaggerate and misrepresent me and my posts .............. thank you

 

[LV-426]

5 minutes ago, bee said:

please don't exaggerate and misrepresent me and my posts .............. thank you

I won't... here are some of your own words:

I'm not going to trawl through your post history for more, but I seem to recall suggestions that staff at Porton Down and others were part of the cover-up too?

[Helen of Annoy]

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Wouldnt that be the direct responsibility of the Ukrainian air traffic control?

No diversion into or over Ukrainian territory is allowed unless explicitly authorized by ATC, including altitude.. the recordings of which I would be interested to hear.

Malaysian plane was flying at high altitude, along with all other commercial planes on that day, which made it safe from the usual war-zone situation, but it wasn't safe from advanced anti-aircraft missile that - oh, look, everyone knows that since the day one - brought it down. 

Of course the Ukrainian air traffic control did not authorize any Russians use any missiles so no matter how hard you twist this, it's still Russians that sent few hundred of your countrymen to their early grave.   

 

[Phaeton80]

5 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Malaysian plane was flying at high altitude, along with all other commercial planes on that day, which made it safe from the usual war-zone situation, but it wasn't safe from advanced anti-aircraft missile that - oh, look, everyone knows that since the day one - brought it down. 

Of course the Ukrainian air traffic control did not authorize any Russians use any missiles so no matter how hard you twist this, it's still Russians that sent few hundred of your countrymen to their early grave.   

 

 
Well arent you a lovely character. Ma'am, all civilian flightpath diversions, all altitude diversions, must be authorized by the ATC of the sovereign nation the airspace belongs to. I dont know what you are so 'annoyed' about, Helen.

Oh wait..

 

[Phaeton80]

6 hours ago, LV-426 said:

I won't... here are some of your own words:

I'm not going to trawl through your post history for more, but I seem to recall suggestions that staff at Porton Down and others were part of the cover-up too?

LV, why not stop trying to label other peoples input as 'crackpot', marking some people up as a Putin fan when they do not regard him as the devil incarnate you do, generally dishing out rather void ad hominems. It isnt necessary, it adds nothing to the discussion, unless you take some sort of joy out of it I really dont see the point. I know the British media deal in that kind of tactics (Ie. Corbyn), and you might think that acceptable / normal, but it really isnt.

There is nothing 'crackpot' in the posts you forwarded here, and the Skripal case still wreaks of deception.. Boris was caught red handed blatantly lying in his fervor to definitvely accuse Russia, so anyone entertaining a 'framing' scenario is certainly not crazy. Especially given the 'secret unequivocal evidence' still hasnt been forthcoming, and probably never will. At least the Dutch fired their foreign minister after being caught lying about a (Great) Russia(n) threat (Halbe Zeilstra). His political career is over, as it damnwell should be. Deception by our elected officials should not be tolerated, at all.

Maybe you should focus your energy on elected officials lying to your fellow countrymen on sensitive int. issues like these, and a media landscape which passionately attacks anyone who asks relevant, rational questions.. instead of trying to character assassinate other posters. Im amazed no one seems to take note of these very, very troubling phenomena.

- Accusing, criminalizing and penalizing other nations without due evidence, without due process (with a sidenote that we would never accept this being done to 'us', ofcourse);

- Lying and deceiving elected officials;

- A media that attacks anyone who doesnt accept the mainstream narrative.

I dont know about you, but that isnt the civilized West I grew up in, and it sets a very disconcerting precedent for future events. If we were really so civilized, we would have prosecuted our own proven liars / criminals as well, but we dont, do we (ie. Bush sr, Bush jr, Blair etc). The very fact we somehow reconcile these inconsistencies, yet scream bloody murder when its perpetrated by 'not us', indicates a certain level of irrational, strong bias.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

 
Well arent you a lovely character. Ma'am, all civilian flightpath diversions, all altitude diversions, must be authorized by the ATC of the sovereign nation the airspace belongs to. I dont know what you are so 'annoyed' about, Helen.

Oh wait..

 

After Russians took down that civilian plane down, the traffic was re-routed, because it became clear that high altitude is not guaranteeing the safety. 

What you're suggesting is that Ukrainian air-control is somehow guilty of not being psychic, knowing in advance that Russians will be so bold/stupid to take a commercial plane down. 

What you'll personally think about my character doesn't change the fact that the obvious Russian criminal mistake, resulting in deaths of everyone on board MA, is officially proven.  

Edited May 26, 2018 by Helen of Annoy

[Phaeton80]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

After Russians took down that civilian plane down, the traffic was re-routed, because it became clear that high altitude is not guaranteeing the safety. 

What you're suggesting is that Ukrainian air-control is somehow guilty of not being psychic, knowing in advance that Russians will be so bold/stupid to take a commercial plane down. 

What you'll personally think about my character doesn't change the fact that the obvious Russian criminal mistake, resulting in deaths of everyone on board MA, is officially proven.  

That suggestion purely exists in your fascinating mind Im afraid. I countered a post concering blame flying over a warzone resting with Malaysian Airlines, while it would be in fact rest with the ATC, given they autthorized a fly over in that specific (warridden) region of the country. I added I would be interested to hear the ATC recordings, which havent been made available to my knowledge.

And in contradiction to popular belief, nothing is 'officially proven' in this context until processed in a court of law, as is the case with any criminal investigation. Unless ofcourse the accused admits guilt, but that isnt the situation here.

[Helen of Annoy]

2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

That suggestion purely exists in your fascinating mind Im afraid. I countered a post concering blame flying over a warzone resting with Malaysian Airlines, while it would be in fact rest with the ATC, given they autthorized a fly over in that specific (warridden) region of the country. I added I would be interested to hear the ATC recordings, which havent been made available to my knowledge.

And in contradiction to popular belief, nothing is 'officially proven' in this context until processed in a court of law, as is the case with any criminal investigation. Unless ofcourse the accused admits guilt, but that isnt the situation here.

Flights over Ukrainian warzone (at least we agree there was one) were routinely approved, because high altitude fly-overs were considered safe. And they would normally be safe, if there was 'just' a war down there, without Russian Buk missiles, aiming specifically at and being capable of taking down plane of that size on that altitude. 

I'm under impression that you're trying to place the blame for deaths of civilians on anyone else (how about ATC) but the Russian idiot who fired the missile. 

Who killed these people? The one who authorized the route, routinely, or the one who fired the missile, for the first time in that particular conflict? 

I also happen to think that no amount of lawyering won't change the facts. Which are now official because an official investigation brought them to public.

But if you wish to lawyer around, pray tell, what was Russian anti-aircraft missile system doing outside Russia? According to whose laws it was aiming at civilian planes?

[RoofGardener]

34 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

That suggestion purely exists in your fascinating mind Im afraid. I countered a post concering blame flying over a warzone resting with Malaysian Airlines, while it would be in fact rest with the ATC, given they autthorized a fly over in that specific (warridden) region of the country. I added I would be interested to hear the ATC recordings, which havent been made available to my knowledge.

And in contradiction to popular belief, nothing is 'officially proven' in this context until processed in a court of law, as is the case with any criminal investigation. Unless ofcourse the accused admits guilt, but that isnt the situation here.

Is that really practical, Phaeton80... or even legal ?

Can you give me any precedent of Russia being charged in a court of law for military actions ?

[pallidin]

Well, one thing is for sure... someone directed that missle strike purposefully at that commercial jet.

A ground cactus or tumbleweed, coincidentally laden with explosives, didn't just suddenly launch itself aimed at the jet.

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by pallidin

[Phaeton80]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Is that really practical, Phaeton80... or even legal ?

Can you give me any precedent of Russia being charged in a court of law for military actions ?

For crimes against humanity, warcrimes, certainly. Im sure you remember the Nazi process back in the day, its the reason we have institutions like the International Court of Justice. Also, the Dutch representatives of JIT have recently voiced their intention to start up a legal process against Russia within a few years.
 

Quote

The International Criminal Court (ICC), located in The Hague, is the court of last resort for prosecution of genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Its founding treaty, the Rome Statute, entered into force on July 1, 2002.

https://www.hrw.org/topic/international-justice/international-criminal-court

 

[Unusual Tournament]

14 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Loot the scattered belongings of the victims of the crash. Then upload videos of looting and using looted makeup, as one Russian girlfriend did.

Of course it was a mistake, of course they aimed for what they thought is Ukrainian military plane, but what was Russian BUK doing in Ukraine, shooting Ukrainian planes down? 

By the way, the guy who was in charge is known and alive. It's all over Internet, I'm not posting any links anymore, which may sound strange but we live in strange times indeed.   

i agree the shooting down and what happened after, of MH-17 was a disgrace. its a war zone Helen. regardless of why the anti air system was in Ukraine, i would think that the safety of the plane is above any dispute. Russia shouldn't be there... Ukrainian air traffic control should not have allowed the flight to move over a war zone... and Malaysian Airlines should have known better and flown around. 

[Unusual Tournament]

14 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Wouldnt that be the direct responsibility of the Ukrainian air traffic control?

No diversion into or over Ukrainian territory is allowed unless explicitly authorized by ATC, including altitude.. the recordings of which I would be interested to hear.

i would think so. the Ukrainian Air Traffic Controllers should not have played politics with the lives of flight MH-17. but at some point the pilot and Malaysian Airways should have a policy about flying into areas of turmoil. 

[AnchorSteam]

Well of course it was the Russians!

Who really thinks the Ukrainians can use and maintain that kind of missile?

 

Hell, knowing it is beyond them is probably why the airlines were still flying over that place. 

But.... whoops! Turns out that tech-savvy does not equal rational behavior. 

 

Are they gonna end that whole stupid war yet, or does Trump have to get involved over there, too?

[RoofGardener]

6 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

For crimes against humanity, warcrimes, certainly. Im sure you remember the Nazi process back in the day, its the reason we have institutions like the International Court of Justice. Also, the Dutch representatives of JIT have recently voiced their intention to start up a legal process against Russia within a few years.
 

 

At the risk of sounding callous, would the shooting down of a civilian airliner really constitute a "crime against humanity" ? 

My point is that some situations cannot readily be resolved by any form of "judicial" process. At least, not in the sense of an adversarial trial with a judge and jury. In some circumstances the best you can get is an inquiry.  

 

*Edit* .. there IS an international investigation team. It has released its findings, and requested an international tribunal to bring prosecutions. A "court of law", as you might put it, Phaeton80.

Russia has blocked this. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/05/mh17-suspects-prosecuted-netherlands-russia-blocks-international/

So much, then, for a "judicial process".  

Edited May 27, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Helen of Annoy]

6 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

i agree the shooting down and what happened after, of MH-17 was a disgrace. its a war zone Helen. regardless of why the anti air system was in Ukraine, i would think that the safety of the plane is above any dispute. Russia shouldn't be there... Ukrainian air traffic control should not have allowed the flight to move over a war zone... and Malaysian Airlines should have known better and flown around. 

After this tragedy, the flights were redirected, weren't allowed anymore. Before this tragedy, no one thought there's realistic possibility a jet on such altitude will be hit. It takes advanced missile to do that, and it was reasonable to assume those who operate such system can tell a fighter from commercial plane. 

But the most plausible theory is that Russians were aware they're aiming non-fighter plane, only they thought it's Ukrainian, possibly carrying members of the government. 

 

[RoofGardener]

5 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

.....

But the most plausible theory is that Russians were aware they're aiming non-fighter plane, only they thought it's Ukrainian, possibly carrying members of the government. 

 

Which still makes it a civilian aircraft, and an act of war ? 

[+and-then]

2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Which still makes it a civilian aircraft, and an act of war ? 

I'd be surprised if Russian operators intentionally brought that civilian aircraft down.  They've shown themselves capable of shooting down a civilian airliner before but this one just seems stupid and pointless.  They HAD to know the bad press they'd get for such an act.  With sanctions already in place, you'd think they wouldn't want to kick the EU tiger in his hind parts unnecessarily.  A skilled operator would have had to know that this aircraft wasn't a fighter or bomber.

[bee]

19 hours ago, LV-426 said:

 

I'm not going to trawl through your post history for more, but I seem to recall suggestions that staff at Porton Down and others were part of the cover-up too?

 

I'm sorry but ''' seem to recall suggestions'''' doesn't cut it --- especially as my few posts in that thread wouldn't have been a great effort
to go through ...

but anyway- this is now off topic and getting boring so --------------- back to MH17

whoever and however...... it was a horrible horrible thing to happen and for so many people to die and so many families to be left shattered - 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by bee

[Helen of Annoy]

15 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Which still makes it a civilian aircraft, and an act of war ? 

Absolutely. Politically, even worse than taking down one 'common' airliner with random civilians aboard. 

It will probably never be proven, because Russians are not insane to make their military communications public, or accessible to (Dutch, Ukrainian or international) investigators.  

[bee]

9 minutes ago, and then said:

I'd be surprised if Russian operators intentionally brought that civilian aircraft down.  They've shown themselves capable of shooting down a civilian airliner before but this one just seems stupid and pointless.  They HAD to know the bad press they'd get for such an act.  With sanctions already in place, you'd think they wouldn't want to kick the EU tiger in his hind parts unnecessarily.  A skilled operator would have had to know that this aircraft wasn't a fighter or bomber.

 

when something doesn't make sense - seems stupid and pointless...... this comes up again and again....

and when it does (seem senseless) I think that it means there's an agenda of some kind at play and it makes sense to someone who knows
more about the facts... facts that the general public don't have access to......?

[RoofGardener]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

Absolutely. Politically, even worse than taking down one 'common' airliner with random civilians aboard. 

It will probably never be proven, because Russians are not insane to make their military communications public, or accessible to (Dutch, Ukrainian or international) investigators.  

Well, it MIGHT happen. Russia denied all involvement in the shooting down of the Korean Airlines plane... until the NSA released transcripts of the Russian (well, Soviet) fighter pilots talking to ground control. 

Mind you, there probably wouldn't be anything like THAT available in this case. 

[Helen of Annoy]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, it MIGHT happen. Russia denied all involvement in the shooting down of the Korean Airlines plane... until the NSA released transcripts of the Russian (well, Soviet) fighter pilots talking to ground control. 

Mind you, there probably wouldn't be anything like THAT available in this case. 

If I may say something typically Slavic - what does it matter anymore. People are dead, Russia suffers from expansion delusions, Ukraine was left alone to absorb the Russian European frustrations, US is rapidly declining, various quasi-fascists are popping up everywhere, destroying legacy for really modest sums of Russian money. 

Knowing the truth about MA flight wouldn't change the situation. It is something the victims should be honoured with and it is important for Ukraine, because this case clearly shows what they are faced with, what kind of dishonesty and what type of aggression, but nothing would change.      

[bmk1245]

34 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, it MIGHT happen. Russia denied all involvement in the shooting down of the Korean Airlines plane... until the NSA released transcripts of the Russian (well, Soviet) fighter pilots talking to ground control. 

Mind you, there probably wouldn't be anything like THAT available in this case. 

Well, probably will be if thats true:

Quote

Then there’s the awkward fact that our Intelligence Community has known the full, terrible story of the MH17 shootdown from practically the moment it happened. Thanks to American acumen in SIGINT and satellite imagery, spies in Washington within mere days of the disaster knew who did it—and how the nightmare unfolded. As reported by The Washington Post only five days after the crash, American intelligence knew that the Kremlin was lying about its innocence in this sordid affair. The Obama White House authorized a limited release of intelligence information, based on “sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites” as the Post put it, to rebut Kremlin disinformation about the incident.

However, this was a tiny fraction of what our Intelligence Community knew about MH17. As three IC officials have confirmed to me, Washington possessed damning information about the shootdown, including SIGINT which left no doubt that the Russian military—specifically the 53^rd Air Defense Missile Brigade—downed the airliner. Detailed, top-secret intelligence from the National Security Agency, which the White House was briefed on within a couple days of the disaster, told the tale. Nevertheless, the Obama administration elected to sit on this bombshell, allowing dishonest Kremlin narratives to gain traction as the public tried to ascertain what exactly had happened to the doomed jetliner.

(link)

 

BTW, "spanish air traffic controller" Carlos should be dragged to the court as accomplice.

[bee]

26 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Detailed, top-secret intelligence from the National Security Agency, which the White House was briefed on within a couple days of the disaster, told the tale. Nevertheless, the Obama administration elected to sit on this bombshell,

 

something else that doesn't make sense..... ^^^

unless perhaps they weren't sure who's missile it was...?... (or were sure but didn't want to say...?)

the background to all this and the intense struggle with the US supporting (driving?)  the Ukraine coup d'etat has to be factored in -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Copies

 Ukraine - soviet copies of M1 variants, designed by Artem Luch Arsenal (Kiev) KBs and built in KhAZ (Kharkov) and Yuzhmash (Dnepr) plants, planned Dnipro SAM system (between Buk and S300P type).