Helen of Annoy Posted May 27, 2018 #51 Share Posted May 27, 2018 41 minutes ago, bmk1245 said: Well, probably will be if thats true: (link) BTW, "spanish air traffic controller" Carlos should be dragged to the court as accomplice. So, it depends if someone will tell Trump that 'Obama didn't release all the info' in which case Trump will blurt it all out, via his Twatter, or 'Obama did release some info' in which case Trump will have the rest of the evidence destroyed. I wish I was kidding. Personally, I think I understand why only portions of evidence are released. And we can't know who was given exactly how much info, which certainly had impact on the investigation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted May 27, 2018 #52 Share Posted May 27, 2018 logically...... if Obama was given evidence about who 'did it' almost immediately but kept quiet - they probably knew it wasn't the Russians - because if they did they would have it out straight away to capitalize on the emotions and horror of the tragedy - not fiffle faffle around letting everyone speculate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted May 27, 2018 #53 Share Posted May 27, 2018 22 minutes ago, bee said: logically...... if Obama was given evidence about who 'did it' almost immediately but kept quiet - they probably knew it wasn't the Russians - because if they did they would have it out straight away to capitalize on the emotions and horror of the tragedy - not fiffle faffle around letting everyone speculate... Let me re-quote what BMK quoted and you obviously didn't read: Quote The Obama White House authorized a limited release of intelligence information, based on “sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites Acting like you cannot possibly believe Russians would stoop so low is your right, only it does make you look rather... partial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV-426 Posted May 27, 2018 #54 Share Posted May 27, 2018 2 hours ago, bee said: I'm sorry but ''' seem to recall suggestions'''' doesn't cut it --- especially as my few posts in that thread wouldn't have been a great effort to go through ... Fine... Does that cover it? British military wanting to boost their funding, and using human guinea pigs to test biological weapons? You couldn't make this stuff up... or... apparently you can... 2 hours ago, bee said: but anyway- this is now off topic and getting boring so --------------- back to MH17 whoever and however...... it was a horrible horrible thing to happen and for so many people to die and so many families to be left shattered - On that we can agree anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV-426 Posted May 27, 2018 #55 Share Posted May 27, 2018 15 hours ago, Phaeton80 said: Maybe you should focus your energy on elected officials lying to your fellow countrymen on sensitive int. issues like these, and a media landscape which passionately attacks anyone who asks relevant, rational questions.. instead of trying to character assassinate other posters. Im amazed no one seems to take note of these very, very troubling phenomena. The thing is Phaeton, you seem to want to portray yourself as the champion of truth in all this, yet you seem to have a very one-sided position on where the truth lies. If you can link me a few of your posts showing any criticism at all of Putin's Russia, I'll gladly retract that and view your posts less sceptically. Personally, I belive all politicians lie to varying degrees. I don't however believe all politicians are capable of cold, calculated murder amongst other nefarious acts. I also believe the media is an utter minefield when it comes to determining the truth these days, and I don't have any criticism of you questioning everything. What I do disagree with is that your conclusions always lead to the same place, suggesting confirmation bias rather than revelation. Just for the record too, I'm no "demonizer" of Putin, as yourself and bee seem to suggest. I state my opinions in topics that concern him, but I don't go out of my way to wage a propaganda war against the man in the manner that you seem to do concerning Western governments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted May 27, 2018 #56 Share Posted May 27, 2018 40 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said: Acting like you cannot possibly believe Russians would stoop so low is your right, only it does make you look rather... partial. providing a counter argument and entertaining / exploring the possible 'other side of the story' ....... often results in being maligned and it often gets personal.... but I soldier on ...... 33 minutes ago, LV-426 said: Fine...Does that cover it? British military wanting to boost their funding, and using human guinea pigs to test biological weapons? You couldn't make this stuff up... or... apparently you can... I suppose that will have to do....... but it was hardly earth shattering speculation as Porton Down has a history of using human guinea pigs for biological experimentation (and not telling them) and the British Army are using Russia as a reason for increasing defence spending so - no need for me to make anything up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted May 27, 2018 #57 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, bee said: providing a counter argument and entertaining / exploring the possible 'other side of the story' ....... often results in being maligned and it often gets personal.... but I soldier on ...... So, would you entertain me this thought: if Russians didn't shoot civilian airplane out of Ukrainian sky, why don't they release their evidence? They track the goings-on as much as the Americans, they have to have something. And I'm talking about real data, not outrageous theories they were spewing around, one of which included UFO. By the way, when they deny something, it's not meant to be believed, it's meant in the 'we won't accept responsibility and what can you do about that?' sense. Edited May 27, 2018 by Helen of Annoy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaeton80 Posted May 27, 2018 #58 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 hour ago, LV-426 said: The thing is Phaeton, you seem to want to portray yourself as the champion of truth in all this, yet you seem to have a very one-sided position on where the truth lies. If you can link me a few of your posts showing any criticism at all of Putin's Russia, I'll gladly retract that and view your posts less sceptically. Personally, I belive all politicians lie to varying degrees. I don't however believe all politicians are capable of cold, calculated murder amongst other nefarious acts. I also believe the media is an utter minefield when it comes to determining the truth these days, and I don't have any criticism of you questioning everything. What I do disagree with is that your conclusions always lead to the same place, suggesting confirmation bias rather than revelation. Just for the record too, I'm no "demonizer" of Putin, as yourself and bee seem to suggest. I state my opinions in topics that concern him, but I don't go out of my way to wage a propaganda war against the man in the manner that you seem to do concerning Western governments. Im not 'portraying' myself as anything when I point out we have been blatantly deceived in the not so distant past - in similar scenarios, and by the very same players - resulting in crimes against humanity, massive bodycounts; and therefor demanding a judicial process be used to establish the truth of any given geo political event.. instead of dealing guilt from one of the sides involved. Im quite sure that if you would be an Iraqi, or were on the receiving end of those deceitful wars in some other form, you would be a hell of a lot more sceptical regarding new narratives. Its probably because you have been watching that war from the comfort of your armchair, watching it like a movie, that you dont really care (enough) you were in fact lied into a war against another sovereign nation. I have verbalised Putin is nowhere near a saint, a criminal in certain perspectives, on different occasions.. although they are far and few between given the extreme and even irrational demonization against this man I feel I need to counter.. for the simple reason its highly subjective. And as it is; I have no evidence he started a war based on sheer deceit, helped with the full force of the medialandscape of numerous nations all supporting thesame lie, selling out their fundamental function.. Being independent critical investigative journalism. And as it is, the individuals that are responsible for those self- confessed lies are still living like 21st century kings unabated. Yet, if any other non Western nation does anything remotely similar, we all fall in line to label them as evil, demanding action, 'justice'. These are all extremely troubling patterns which we in the West should all be very concerned about, it really shook up the way I trust and regard our governments. Because if we continue on this path, and keep ignoring our own criminal acts while passionately focussing on those of others - basing 'truth' on the input of one of both sides of the story while not giving the accused a chance to defend itself, we will lose the very thing we think we are defending. We will turn into that which we hate most, blinded and guided by that same hate. This, what we have been witnessing the last couple of years, isnt us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.United_Nations Posted May 27, 2018 #59 Share Posted May 27, 2018 If anyone is blaming a western conspiracy, do rememb that the rebels shot down numerous aircraft belonging to Ukraine. Also one of the rebel groups claimed to shoot down an aircraft thinking it was Ukrainian, however when it was realised it was a passenger plane, the news article and tweets were removed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted May 27, 2018 #60 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said: So, would you entertain me this thought: if Russians didn't shoot civilian airplane out of Ukrainian sky, why don't they release their evidence? They track the goings-on as much as the Americans, they have to have something. And I'm talking about real data, not outrageous theories they were spewing around, one of which included UFO. By the way, when they deny something, it's not meant to be believed, it's meant in the 'we won't accept responsibility and what can you do about that?' sense. (I'm probably going to regret getting involved answering this - and I expect all I get will be grief but here we go.... I'll soldier on ) I'm not going to spend a lot of time on all this but seeing as you have asked..... I had a look... A quick look and a fairly quick search so I will just present what I found... as this isn't a topic that I have delved into in any depth although I remember when it all happened getting a bit involved in a discussion....the details of which I've forgotten now... The first link I went onto was this... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43457694 which luckily gave me the lead I needed to address your question..... The pilot who Russia accuses of shooting down MH17 has allegedly committed suicide - shot himself they say .... a couple of months ago... Now that seems an odd addition to the story for a start off..... if he didn't do it why would he be bothered... but if he did maybe he crumbled under pressure.... or....... perhaps it was better for Ukraine if he wasn't available for questioning - just in case....? quote from link... bolded A Ukrainian journalist who knew Voloshyn well, Yuriy Butusov, praised him on Facebook (in Russian) as an exemplary pilot who had fought bravely against the Russian-backed rebels in the Donbass region. Butusov expressed bewilderment over Voloshyn's death. "Dear Vlad, how can this be?! Why?!" he wrote. "He didn't let himself break down, he wasn't depressed at all - he always acted as an exemplary officer." this lead onto looking at this forum where they were discussing a satellite image - and this video was on one of the posts about bullet holes found in some of the debris and local witness statements saying they saw two planes in the sky at the time of the demise of flight MH17 - the passenger liner and a smaller silver one,,, then I saw this video... also... Why did Ukraine SU-25 fly same path as MH17, simultaneously at same altitude?' - Russian Military (video) of course neither side are going to back down and our MSM will heavily promote the Russia~did~it narrative... so in conclusion.... evidence has been released but of course the US etc aren't going to accept it in any shape or form.... no matter what... because the Ukraine 'revolution' is their baby, so to speak and they won't want it seen in a bad light... and will go to great lengths to manage perception about the whole terrible tragic incident... that could be what the latest alleged evidence that ''''Russia definitely did it'''' is about ..... upping the ante - Edited May 27, 2018 by bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted May 27, 2018 #61 Share Posted May 27, 2018 20 minutes ago, bee said: (I'm probably going to regret getting involved answering this - and I expect all I get will be grief but here we go.... I'll soldier on ) I'm not going to spend a lot of time on all this but seeing as you have asked..... I had a look... A quick look and a fairly quick search so I will just present what I found... as this isn't a topic that I have delved into in any depth although I remember when it all happened getting a bit involved in a discussion....the details of which I've forgotten now... The first link I went onto was this... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43457694 which luckily gave me the lead I needed to address your question..... The pilot who Russia accuses of shooting down MH17 has allegedly committed suicide - shot himself they say .... a couple of months ago... Now that seems an odd addition to the story for a start off..... if he didn't do it why would he be bothered... but if he did maybe he crumbled under pressure.... or....... perhaps it was better for Ukraine if he wasn't available for questioning - just in case....? quote from link... bolded A Ukrainian journalist who knew Voloshyn well, Yuriy Butusov, praised him on Facebook (in Russian) as an exemplary pilot who had fought bravely against the Russian-backed rebels in the Donbass region. Butusov expressed bewilderment over Voloshyn's death. "Dear Vlad, how can this be?! Why?!" he wrote. "He didn't let himself break down, he wasn't depressed at all - he always acted as an exemplary officer." this lead onto looking at this forum where they were discussing a satellite image - and this video was on one of the posts about bullet holes found in some of the debris and local witness statements saying they saw two planes in the sky at the time of the demise of flight MH17 - the passenger liner and a smaller silver one,,, then I saw this video... also... Why did Ukraine SU-25 fly same path as MH17, simultaneously at same altitude?' - Russian Military (video) of course neither side are going to back down and our MSM will heavily promote the Russia~did~it narrative... so in conclusion.... evidence has been released but of course the US etc aren't going to accept it in any shape or form.... no matter what... because the Ukraine 'revolution' is their baby, so to speak and they won't want it seen in a bad light... and will go to great lengths to manage perception about the whole terrible tragic incident... that could be what the latest alleged evidence that ''''Russia definitely did it'''' is about ..... upping the ante - I asked for Russian actual data (of course you don't have it, I just asked you what do you think why they don't present it and found no answer in your post, by the way). And you seize the opportunity to post more Russian propaganda. And it's stale! It was one of the first Russian dezinformatsiya theories, that an Ukrainian fighter jet took MA airliner down. Since it was definitely Buk missile (earth-to-air, cannot be mounted on a plane), the very fact Russians claimed something so outrageously wrong indicates their responsibility. When the Buk missile was undoubtedly proven to be the cause of the disaster, Russia attempted claiming it was fired by Ukrainians, but the footage says otherwise. Russian uncensored bragging said otherwise. It were Russians. They owe you new material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted May 27, 2018 #62 Share Posted May 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said: I asked for Russian actual data (of course you don't have it, I just asked you what do you think why they don't present it and found no answer in your post, by the way). And you seize the opportunity to post more Russian propaganda. And it's stale! It was one of the first Russian dezinformatsiya theories, that an Ukrainian fighter jet took MA airliner down. Since it was definitely Buk missile (earth-to-air, cannot be mounted on a plane), the very fact Russians claimed something so outrageously wrong indicates their responsibility. When the Buk missile was undoubtedly proven to be the cause of the disaster, Russia attempted claiming it was fired by Ukrainians, but the footage says otherwise. Russian uncensored bragging said otherwise. It were Russians. They owe you new material. yeah - ok - the thrust of your reply is totally expected - you asked why Russia didn't release their evidence and I illustrated that they did.... the US probably had the same evidence and that's why Obama didn't release it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted May 27, 2018 #63 Share Posted May 27, 2018 16 minutes ago, bee said: yeah - ok - the thrust of your reply is totally expected - you asked why Russia didn't release their evidence and I illustrated that they did.... the US probably had the same evidence and that's why Obama didn't release it... You gave me stale Russian dezinformatsiya piece, that was maybe usable before it became apparent it was Buk missile. There are newer pieces and they're already out of use, because of the facts that were proven in the meantime. If I was carrying water for Russians, at this point I wouldn't try denying it was them who took MA airliner down, I'd rather focus on inventing reasons why it was good for the Motherland. Jews on board or something. And Obama - let me re-re-quote: Quote The Obama White House authorized a limited release of intelligence information, based on “sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites Enough. And enough. It was fun, thank you, one day we'll find something we agree upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 27, 2018 #64 Share Posted May 27, 2018 12 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said: After this tragedy, the flights were redirected, weren't allowed anymore. Before this tragedy, no one thought there's realistic possibility a jet on such altitude will be hit. It takes advanced missile to do that, and it was reasonable to assume those who operate such system can tell a fighter from commercial plane. But the most plausible theory is that Russians were aware they're aiming non-fighter plane, only they thought it's Ukrainian, possibly carrying members of the government. yeah it was sad that it took a fatal shooting down of flight MH-17 to redirect all flights. a bit of logic would have saved many lives. Russia takes the brunt of the blame. bolded: a fighter isn't the only risk for Russian troops. they were probably also looking out for bomber type planes and intel planes, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted May 27, 2018 #65 Share Posted May 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Mr.United_Nations said: If anyone is blaming a western conspiracy, do rememb that the rebels shot down numerous aircraft belonging to Ukraine. Also one of the rebel groups claimed to shoot down an aircraft thinking it was Ukrainian, however when it was realised it was a passenger plane, the news article and tweets were removed. im not blaming any western conspiracy against Russia, Russia needs no help in being a recalcitrant nation. but Ukraine should never have allowed civilian planes to prop up its territorial rights against Russia. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted May 28, 2018 #66 Share Posted May 28, 2018 20 hours ago, Captain Risky said: yeah it was sad that it took a fatal shooting down of flight MH-17 to redirect all flights. a bit of logic would have saved many lives. Russia takes the brunt of the blame. bolded: a fighter isn't the only risk for Russian troops. they were probably also looking out for bomber type planes and intel planes, too. They were looking for the ministers and possibly the president too. I don't think there's much aerial bombings (on any) or large intel planes (on Ukrainian side). Of course, without the actual communication, recorded, and released, it will never be proven and every pro-Russian will have every right to say so. Not proven. But to me personally, it's the most logical thing. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted May 28, 2018 #67 Share Posted May 28, 2018 On 5/26/2018 at 4:13 AM, LV-426 said: No, you'll just buy into absolutely any crackpot story that fits your own narrative instead, to the point that you make posts heartily congratulating Putin on his re-election, along with posts suggesting every government and military agency in your own country is part of some evil plot to discredit him. Meanwhile you dismiss any story whatsoever that dares to tarnish your man. No... that doesn't sound like you are being mind controlled at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted May 28, 2018 #68 Share Posted May 28, 2018 20 hours ago, Captain Risky said: im not blaming any western conspiracy against Russia, Russia needs no help in being a recalcitrant nation. but Ukraine should never have allowed civilian planes to prop up its territorial rights against Russia. No one thought anyone will be so stupid/blind/both to take down a civilian plane. While we had our war, a lot of people still came to spend their usual holidays in Croatia. Personally, I thought they're insane. They saw no problem, it was completely peaceful on their beach. Just because it was raining artillery 100 km to the left or to the right didn't bother them. And we had no dead tourists. It could have been different. I'm trying to say that you can have a war somewhere and seemingly safe parts of the country and it can all go just fine, but it can, certainly, end up tragically. I agree it's different with commercial jets, I wouldn't like to be flown over war zones, but it just wasn't that kind of war zone until it became obvious that, damn, it is. It's no one else's fault but the one who ordered the missile to be fired at that particular plane. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted May 28, 2018 #69 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Its not like its the first time, and blaming and making Putin personally responsible is not helping anybody, least of all those on Flight MH17 Quote ~ List of airliner shootdown incidents From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In the history of commercial aviation, there have been many airliner shootdown incidents which have been caused intentionally or by accident. This is a chronologically ordered list meant to document instances where airliners have been brought down by gunfire or missile attacks, including wartime incidents, rather than terrorist bombings or sabotage. ~ wiki link ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted May 28, 2018 #70 Share Posted May 28, 2018 13 minutes ago, third_eye said: Its not like its the first time, and blaming and making Putin personally responsible is not helping anybody, least of all those on Flight MH17 wiki link ~ This sounds like whataboutism to me. It doesn't serve the families to buy an obviously fake story from Russia, or to just say oh well, it's happened plenty of times before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted May 28, 2018 #71 Share Posted May 28, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ChaosRose said: This sounds like whataboutism to me. It doesn't serve the families to buy an obviously fake story from Russia, or to just say oh well, it's happened plenty of times before. Well what do you expect the outcome would be with the way this 'investigation' is conducted and this conclusion being presented ? YOu think the accused and pronounced guilty are just going to hold up their hands and say 'oh well, you got me. now do away with us how you please' ? Its not about whataboutism, it is about learning from the mistakes of the past ~ Edited May 28, 2018 by third_eye about 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted May 28, 2018 #72 Share Posted May 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, third_eye said: Well what do you expect the outcome would be with the way this 'investigation' is conducted and this conclusion being presented ? YOu think the accused and pronounced guilty are just going to hold up their hands and say 'oh well, you got me. now do away with us how you please' ? Its not about whataboutism, it is about learning from the mistakes of the past ~ And allowing one particular government not to own up to their own. Why are people suddenly so defensive of Russia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted May 28, 2018 #73 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Just now, ChaosRose said: And allowing one particular government not to own up to their own. Why are people suddenly so defensive of Russia? Its called getting down to the truth, I'm tired of parties with vested interests hijacking this tragedy to push their agenda and squeeze political profit from the deaths of those unfortunate people. Saying Russia is responsible serves and solves nothing, questionable conclusions based on questionable chain of evidence will not hold up in any court, popular sentiments and opinion will not bring justice to those on flght MH17 or any civilian planes brought down by the military, ANY military, regardless if its an action based on a conditional state of war or terrorism. ~ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted May 28, 2018 #74 Share Posted May 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, third_eye said: Its called getting down to the truth, I'm tired of parties with vested interests hijacking this tragedy to push their agenda and squeeze political profit from the deaths of those unfortunate people. Saying Russia is responsible serves and solves nothing, questionable conclusions based on questionable chain of evidence will not hold up in any court, popular sentiments and opinion will not bring justice to those on flght MH17 or any civilian planes brought down by the military, ANY military, regardless if its an action based on a conditional state of war or terrorism. ~ Not saying they are responsible does not help. It makes them think they can get away with this type of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted May 28, 2018 #75 Share Posted May 28, 2018 1 minute ago, ChaosRose said: Not saying they are responsible does not help. It makes them think they can get away with this type of thing. Well saying so without going through the proper procedure and standard SOP and or respecting the procedure of the Law is called Contempt of the Courts ... If this is a case where this so called Investigators have the relevant evidence to back it up, it should be presented to the International Judiciary Court. THat they play it out to the arena of public opinion just makes it stink of Propaganda and not only that, it is CONTEMPT of the Judiciary Process, which makes and allows the RUssians, or those that are responsible, a very good chance of getting away with it. Like I said, it is not helping, regardless if it is not true and especially if it is ~ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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