MH17 downed by Russian military missile

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

Well saying so without going through the proper procedure and standard SOP and or respecting the procedure of the Law is called Contempt of the Courts ... If this is a case where this so called Investigators have the relevant evidence to back it up, it should be presented to the International Judiciary Court.

THat they play it out to the arena of public opinion just makes it stink of Propaganda and not only that, it is CONTEMPT of the Judiciary Process, which makes and allows the RUssians, or those that are responsible, a very good chance of getting away with it.

Like I said, it is not helping, regardless if it is not true and especially if it is

~

International investigators are saying that they did it. 

They should be able to say what their investigation found.

[Coil]

48 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No one thought anyone will be so stupid/blind/both to take down a civilian plane.

It's no one else's fault but the one who ordered the missile to be fired at that particular plane. 

The civilian plane was shot down because the militants took him for a reconnaissance ukrainian plane that flew over the battlefield in previous days and was classified as civilian aircraft. Therefore, when the militants shot him down, they were not happy for long because when they arrived at the wreckage of the plane they saw things and bodies and not military recording equipment and during negotiations of militants on the radio it was heard that this was a civilian board.
 The ukrainian side also made the mistake of not prohibiting the flights of civil aircraft over the territory of military operations and it was necessary to do it in advance. Even there were several suits to the ukrainian side but that was quiet.

Now the map of military operations in Ukraine looks like this:

https://media.slovoidilo.ua/media/infographics/7/62963/karta-ato-snbo-2018-05-24-ru_large.jpg

Four days ago, militants killed 22-year-old junior sergeant Bogdan Kolomiets. He was the commander of the 2nd branch of the platoon of the snipers of the 24th brigade:

http://podrobnosti.ua/media/ckeditor_uploads/2018/05/24/33470492_1030634590427311_3925983253986541568_n.jpg

In my city one of the streets was renamed in honor of the deceased soldier and several photos of the killed soldiers were posted on the big-boards of the city.

Eternal memory of the deceased for the defense of the Motherland!

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

International investigators are saying that they did it. 

They should be able to say what their investigation found.

THat's what you are not understanding, you are taking it for granted and it suits your confirmation bias, even if it were true, they have to go through the proper and necessary channels and present them to the International Judiciary.

The manner that they released their findings, however relevant, tight or iron clad it is, it does not help the process to getting at those involved or responsible.

So they say its 'most likely' Russian equipment. so what does that prove?

Putin is an evil guy ?

Lots of help that will do, might as well get someone to dress in in some Marvel / DC Universe Superhero Costume and stand in front of TV Cameras calling for a Crusade to kick Putin out of Office ... its just stupid which kinda weakens the entire case, whatever these bunch of so called 'Professional' investigators thinks of themselves

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[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, third_eye said:

THat's what you are not understanding, you are taking it for granted and it suits your confirmation bias, even if it were true, they have to go through the proper and necessary channels and present them to the International Judiciary.

The manner that they released their findings, however relevant, tight or iron clad it is, it does not help the process to getting at those involved or responsible.

So they say its 'most likely' Russian equipment. so what does that prove?

Putin is an evil guy ?

Lots of help that will do, might as well get someone to dress in in some Marvel / DC Universe Superhero Costume and stand in front of TV Cameras calling for a Crusade to kick Putin out of Office ... its just stupid which kinda weakens the entire case, whatever these bunch of so called 'Professional' investigators thinks of themselves

~

I suppose you believe Assad is innocent of the chemical attacks on his own people then?

[GlitterRose]

Maybe you didn't read what I read...

The missile that downed a Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine in 2014 belonged to a Russian brigade, international investigators say.

For the first time, the Dutch-led team said the missile came from a Russian brigade based in the city of Kursk.

All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in mid-air flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

It was hit by a BUK missile fired from rebel-held territory in Ukraine. Russia says none of its weapons was used.

But on Thursday Wilbert Paulissen, a Dutch official from the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), told reporters: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."

[SHaYap]

Just now, ChaosRose said:

I suppose you believe Assad is innocent of the chemical attacks on his own people then?

Irrelevant ... whether Assad sucks his milk straight from the udders of cows or from nipples of a bottle has nothing to do with any of this. Look, I'm not saying who is the good guys and who is the villains here, if you want to play that game you go right ahead, all I can tell you is that's not the way things are resolved.

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1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

Maybe you didn't read what I read...

The missile that downed a Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine in 2014 belonged to a Russian brigade, international investigators say.

For the first time, the Dutch-led team said the missile came from a Russian brigade based in the city of Kursk.

All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in mid-air flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

It was hit by a BUK missile fired from rebel-held territory in Ukraine. Russia says none of its weapons was used.

But on Thursday Wilbert Paulissen, a Dutch official from the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), told reporters: "All the vehicles in a convoy carrying the missile were part of the Russian armed forces."

They can say its Putin riding on the missile all the way to impact and it makes no difference because it will not hold up in court.

So they say its a Russian missile . How are they going to prove it ?

That is the most important part, if it is just I say they say someone said, I might as well say its Thanos and his Infinity Gauntlet and its the same I say they say who said.

It will never be accepted in a COurt of Law.

What I want is Justice ... not more propaganda and more stupid conspiracy theories, if they really have the evidence and they chose to pull a stunt like this they should be hung and quartered

Professional Investigators should be more responsible never conduct themselves so unprofessionally ...

~

 

[GlitterRose]

Just now, third_eye said:

Irrelevant ... whether Assad sucks his milk straight from the udders of cows or from nipples of a bottle has nothing to do with any of this. Look, I'm not saying who is the good guys and who is the villains here, if you want to play that game you go right ahead, all I can tell you is that's not the way things are resolved.

~

They can say its Putin riding on the missile all the way to impact and it makes no difference because it will not hold up in court.

So they say its a Russian missile . How are they going to prove it ?

That is the most important part, if it is just I say they say someone said, I might as well say its Thanos and his Infinity Gauntlet and its the same I say they say who said.

It will never be accepted in a COurt of Law.

What I want is Justice ... not more propaganda and more stupid conspiracy theories, if they really have the evidence and they chose to pull a stunt like this they should be hung and quartered

Professional Investigators should be more responsible never conduct themselves so unprofessionally ...

~

 

At some point, people have to believe what investigators find, and not cling to propaganda from known dictators.

You don't give Assad the same courtesy, so why do you do it for Russia?

[GlitterRose]

Investigators should be able to share their findings with the world community.

Anything else would be a boon to dictators who want to hide their wrongdoing.

[SHaYap]

Just now, ChaosRose said:

At some point, people have to believe what investigators find, and not cling to propaganda from known dictators.

You don't give Assad the same courtesy, so why do you do it for Russia?

I don't care about who say are dictators or who you think should die tomorrow or whether what you believe or who. THis is not about any of that nonsense

I am doing exactly the opposite of what you are doing, perpetuate propaganda and beliefs as evidence. Russia did not do this, someone did, what we have to establish for a fact is who that someone is, I don't care who it is.  Until it can be established, proven and verified beyond a shadow of a doubt then we'll say who it is, may be a Russian, could be a Russian but that does not make him or them Russia, which is the propagandist stink which I'd rather not smear on the case.

~

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

Investigators should be able to share their findings with the world community.

Anything else would be a boon to dictators who want to hide their wrongdoing.

If the investigators cared more about Justice instead of Propaganda sure ... but evidently they and them and you cares not for that except your Psychological War

I'm not fighting that war for you nor am I so inclined to fund it with innocent lives to further your propagandist tendencies.

~

[GlitterRose]

Just now, third_eye said:

I don't care about who say are dictators or who you think should die tomorrow or whether what you believe or who. THis is not about any of that nonsense

I am doing exactly the opposite of what you are doing, perpetuate propaganda and beliefs as evidence. Russia did not do this, someone did, what we have to establish for a fact is who that someone is, I don't care who it is.  Until it can be established, proven and verified beyond a shadow of a doubt then we'll say who it is, may be a Russian, could be a Russian but that does not make him or them Russia, which is the propagandist stink which I'd rather not smear on the case.

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If the investigators cared more about Justice instead of Propaganda sure ... but evidently they and them and you cares not for that except your Psychological War

I'm not fighting that war for you nor am I so inclined to fund it with innocent lives to further your propagandist tendencies.

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Plain and simple. An investigation revealed who was responsible for the downed plane. 

Your argument is that they shouldn't tell anyone.

That's a ridiculous argument.

[SHaYap]

2 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Plain and simple. An investigation revealed who was responsible for the downed plane. 

An investigation ... that's what it is ... you don;t know what they have, all they have is just belief without solid evidence and faith that serves nothing or purpose except propaganda.

What did they reveal ? Who ? Who was responsible ?

You associated and knee jerked jumped and made a jerky association because it serves your purpose and you made huge assumptions, fine. what does that prove ?

Are you now going to say the international body of learned judiciary is in the pockets of dictators because they do not see as you see and do as you wish ?

How far do you think this will go in front of a panel of judges ?

~

2 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Your argument is that they shouldn't tell anyone.

That's a ridiculous argument.

You are making more assumptions, I said they should present and provide their findings to the Judiciary Panel of prosecutors.

You are ridiculously arguing for what you believe with what you want to believe, I am just arguing with interest for Justice, in the The Courts of Law.

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[GlitterRose]

You could say the same thing about Assad, and yet you don't.

Dictators who regularly do bad stuff get exactly no benefit of the doubt from me. 

They've used up all their benefit of the doubt.

[SHaYap]

34 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

You could say the same thing about Assad, and yet you don't.

Dictators who regularly do bad stuff get exactly no benefit of the doubt from me. 

They've used up all their benefit of the doubt.

What does Assad have to do with MH17 ?

Why should it be so important that I say anything that would validate your beliefs ?

Who is Assad to me ?

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That's right ... nobody ...

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[Phaeton80]

51 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Plain and simple. An investigation revealed who was responsible for the downed plane. 

Your argument is that they shouldn't tell anyone.

That's a ridiculous argument.

 

Are we to understand you would maintain thesame position you hold here if any given foreign power, say.. China, accuses the US of a similar crime based on 'an investigation' thesame foreign power has conducted (in cooperation with Russia, Iran and Syria for instance)?

I really, really dont think so.

Also, there is no issue making the findings of the investigation public, what is an issue is to cast penalties, convictions based on such an investigation. Heres where a judicial process needs to come in to offer the accused the opportunity to defend itself. You would undoubtedly demand thesame if the US was the accused, and you would be completely in your right in doing so.

[Helen of Annoy]

2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Are we to understand you would maintain thesame position you hold here if any given foreign power, say.. China, accuses the US of a similar crime based on 'an investigation' thesame foreign power has conducted (in cooperation with Russia, Iran and Syria for instance)?

I really, really dont think so.

Also, there is no issue making the findings of the investigation public, what is an issue is to cast penalties, convictions based on such an investigation. Heres where a judicial process needs to come in to offer the accused the opportunity to defend itself. You would undoubtedly demand thesame if the US was the accused, and you would be completely in your right in doing so.

And why is this investigation so unworthy of your trust? 

Would a trial that hypothetically went all wrong and found the guy who went to bathroom guilty of taking down that plane be more acceptable to you? 

Why is lawyering suddenly so much more important than the official results of a professional investigation? I tend to believe engineers more than lawyers when it's about planes falling out of the sky.  

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

You are making more assumptions, I said they should present and provide their findings to the Judiciary Panel of prosecutors.

You are ridiculously arguing for what you believe with what you want to believe, I am just arguing with interest for Justice, in the The Courts of Law.

Sounds reasonable. Just one question...

Which court of law ? And who are this Judiciary Panel ? Who selects them, and under what jurisdictional law would they operate under ? 

OK.. that's four questions.. but you get my drift ? 

Edited May 28, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Phaeton80]

16 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And why is this investigation so unworthy of your trust? 

Would a trial that hypothetically went all wrong and found the guy who went to bathroom guilty of taking down that plane be more acceptable to you? 

Why is lawyering suddenly so much more important than the official results of a professional investigation? I tend to believe engineers more than lawyers when it's about planes falling out of the sky.  

*Snip* wrong poster

Apologies.

 

Edit: to answer your question; because we pride ourselves, in the civilized West, our society and (int.) institutions are firmly grounded in the Rule of Law. Nations that dont adhere to those same fundaments are smugly labelled 'Banana Republics'.

If we decide to cast a verdict based on a partial investigation without any judicial process, we are all open for thesame tactics in the future, all bets are off. Anyone can accuse any other and proceed to impose sanctions, soft (economic) or hard (military).

Edited May 28, 2018 by Phaeton80

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And why is this investigation so unworthy of your trust? 

Their conduct.

THis is not how to pursue the case, if that, is what these investigators were doing in the first place

~

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Would a trial that hypothetically went all wrong and found the guy who went to bathroom guilty of taking down that plane be more acceptable to you? 

I don't care if its Martians or Nibiru or Putin's grandmother who gave to go ahead, I want someone found guilty and sentenced in a court of Law, not beaten, lynched and dragged through the streets and sodomised with a bayonet and declare 'case closed'

I want the one responsible, not some cardboard poster boy idol of 'pure evil' because someone said ' I believe he did it ... you better believe me'

~

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Why is lawyering suddenly so much more important than the official results of a professional investigation? I tend to believe engineers more than lawyers when it's about planes falling out of the sky.  

Then you don't understand what Justice means ... if you don't understand that, you'll never know what is Justice

~

[RoofGardener]

2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

*Snip* wrong poster

Apologies.

Phew.. Helen of Annoy ducked the Wrath of Phaeton80.... I wonder who's going to get it ?  

[SHaYap]

6 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Sounds reasonable. Just one question...

Which court of law ? And who are this Judiciary Panel ? Who selects them, and under what jurisdictional law would they operate under ? 

OK.. that's four questions.. but you get my drift ? 

That's the problem, all this nonsense is just hindering the process of getting Justice for MH17

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[Helen of Annoy]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

Their conduct.

THis is not how to pursue the case, if that, is what these investigators were doing in the first place

~

I don't care if its Martians or Nibiru or Putin's grandmother who gave to go ahead, I want someone found guilty and sentenced in a court of Law, not beaten, lynched and dragged through the streets and sodomised with a bayonet and declare 'case closed'

I want the one responsible, not some cardboard poster boy idol of 'pure evil' because someone said ' I believe he did it ... you better believe me'

~

Then you don't understand what Justice means ... if you don't understand that, you'll never know what is Justice

~

Firstly, take Libya out of Ukraine. 

Secondly, what exactly was wrong with investigation? Not enough Russians, concluding it was UFO after all? 

Thirdly, I don't believe in justice. I believe in staying alive. It's too late for the people on board that plane. Not too late for everyone else that might found themselves in the path of Russian expansion.   

[SHaYap]

3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Thirdly, I don't believe in justice. I believe in staying alive. It's too late for the people on board that plane. Not too late for everyone else that might found themselves in the path of Russian expansion.   

Then leave MH17 out of Ukraine's tears under Russia's boots ...

~

[Phaeton80]

15 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Phew.. Helen of Annoy ducked the Wrath of Phaeton80.... I wonder who's going to get it ?  

Thats real funny Biff.

[RoofGardener]

30 minutes ago, third_eye said:

That's the problem, all this nonsense is just hindering the process of getting Justice for MH17

~

But.. that's my point Third_eye. There is no judicial system in place in which such an inquiry could be held ? I asked you earlier "in what court " you would have your trial, but you have not responded ? 

[SHaYap]

8 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

But.. that's my point Third_eye. There is no judicial system in place in which such an inquiry could be held ? I asked you earlier "in what court " you would have your trial, but you have not responded ? 

Due process ... all these nonsense have got to stop before the process of the presented evidence available can be decided upon where the jurisdiction is.

So far Malaysia's is pushing for the ICC which is where it should be
 

Quote

 

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Williams, Sarah --- "MH17 and the International Criminal Court: A ...

www5.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/MelbJIL/2016/9.html

The downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 on 17 July 2014 killed all 298 people on board and had significant implications for the safety of international civil ...

‎III OPTION 1 ... · ‎IV OPTION 2: 'MH17 ... · ‎OPTION 3: AN MH17 ...

Russia vetoed MH17 tribunal, so ICC is next step - The Nation

www.nationmultimedia.com/.../Russia-vetoed-MH17-tribunal-so-ICC-is-next-step-302...

Oct 5, 2016 - Last week's report of the Dutch-led international team of investigators, which concludes that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down by a ...

MH17: Malaysia could opt for International Criminal Court to seek justice

https://www.nst.com.my/.../mh17-malaysia-could-opt-international-criminal-court-see...

Sep 29, 2016 - KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysia could opt for the International Criminal Court (ICC) for the prosecution of the perpetrators who fired the BUK missile ...

ICC Prosecution 'likely' to look at MH17 downing | Justice Hub

https://justicehub.org/article/icc-prosecution-likely-look-mh17-downing

Sep 10, 2015 - In an email to Justice Hub, the Office of the Prosecutor at the ICC confirmed that the downing of MH17 is likely to be looked at by the OTP, at the ...

MH17 and the International Criminal Court | Law

www.law.unsw.edu.au/events/mh17-and-international-criminal-court

Sep 21, 2015 - On 8 September, Ukraine filed a declaration accepting the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC) in relation to acts in Ukrainian ...

Ukraine's Prosecutor General stating JIT requested ICC to review ...

www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/ukraines-prosecutor-general-stating-jit-requeste...

Nov 23, 2016 - “The MH17 catastrophe is being treated as a military crime and, ... To me it seems to be extremely unlikely JIT did indeed request ICC to review ...

Russia's withdrawing support for the International Criminal Court has ...

www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/russias-withdrawing-support-for-the-internatio...

Nov 18, 2016 - The signature of the Rome Statute does not provide ICC jurisdiction on ... on the prosecution of suspects responsible for the downing of MH17?

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But it can't move because all these nonsense of dragging political and propagandist mess that is being churned up.

Obviously there's more to it than that but its 3am and I can't be bothered to go on this merry go round of idiocy anymore for now ...

~ I'm out ~

 

~

Edited May 28, 2018 by third_eye