MH17 downed by Russian military missile

[RoofGardener]

24 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Thats real funny Biff.

[RoofGardener]

5 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Due process ... all these nonsense have got to stop before the process of the presented evidence available can be decided upon where the jurisdiction is.

So far Malaysia's is pushing for the ICC which is where it should be
 

~

But it can't move because all these nonsense of dragging political and propagandist mess that is being churned up.

~

OK... a submission to the International Criminal Court. And who would be "the accused" ? 

[Helen of Annoy]

11 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

OK... a submission to the International Criminal Court. And who would be "the accused" ? 

According to the guys who insist that they didn't like the results of the investigation, anyone except Russia or the guy who did it.

Maybe we could have a lottery, get one random country, which will have their own lottery and accuse one of their citizens.   

 

[Unusual Tournament]

3 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Not saying they are responsible does not help.

It makes them think they can get away with this type of thing. 

I agree that people shouldnt get away with blowing a plane up whether accidental or not.  But there are also other factors at play that even though don’t exonerate the Russians should be also viewed in a similar light. 

[SHaYap]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

OK... a submission to the International Criminal Court. And who would be "the accused" ? 

That's what the designated Prosecutors are trying to establish, all this wild accusations, be they true or or accurate or not, is not helping the case. There are procedures, that's why it is called a Judiciary, not a lynch mob.

Russia was involved in the beginning and was cooperating fully, then all these nonsense started and the political and diplomatic turd heads joined in calling for a claim in the barrels of the blood, it just stalled and made murky of the process.

Justice for MH17 is justice for MH17, and should be only about MH17, not anything else.

~

That I have to elaborate this in this fashion just means you can't or won't see pass the nonsense

~

[RoofGardener]

2 hours ago, third_eye said:

That's what the designated Prosecutors are trying to establish, all this wild accusations, be they true or or accurate or not, is not helping the case. There are procedures, that's why it is called a Judiciary, not a lynch mob.

Russia was involved in the beginning and was cooperating fully, then all these nonsense started and the political and diplomatic turd heads joined in calling for a claim in the barrels of the blood, it just stalled and made murky of the process.

Justice for MH17 is justice for MH17, and should be only about MH17, not anything else.

~

That I have to elaborate this in this fashion just means you can't or won't see pass the nonsense

~

Ooooh right... this is new to me. Who are the "Designated Prosecutors" ? (in the sense of... which organisation do they represent, rather than their actual names ?). Who has designated them ? Are we still talking about the ICC here ? 

Edited May 29, 2018 by RoofGardener

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Ooooh right... this is new to me. Who are the "Designated Prosecutors" ? (in the sense of... which organisation do they represent, rather than their actual names ?). Who has designated them ? Are we still talking about the ICC here ? 

Malaysia, MH17 is Malaysian Airlines ... c'mon RG ...

~

[DarkHunter]

43 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Ooooh right... this is new to me. Who are the "Designated Prosecutors" ? (in the sense of... which organisation do they represent, rather than their actual names ?). Who has designated them ? Are we still talking about the ICC here ? 

Did some research on this cause I can't sleep and it seems to be a bit of a mess that won't go anywhere.

It seems the criminal investigation of MH17 is being performed by the Joint Investigation Team and is made up of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, and Ukraine with it being lead by the Netherland's Public Prosecution Service.  In June 2015 the Joint Investigation Team tried to form a UN tribunal to try the ones responsible but Russia rejected the offer.  About a month later Malaysia sent out a draft resolution to form the tribunal and when it came to a vote at the UN security council it gained majority support but Russia vetoed it.  About 2 years later the Joint Investigation Team announced it will prosecute the suspects of the MH17 downing in the Netherlands under Dutch law but due to various political crises and legal stuff involving treaties none of this was really able to go forward till March 2018.

Basically Russia has blocked an international tribunal and now the whole thing will be tried under Dutch law with a Dutch prosecutor.  More then likely this whole thing will go no where cause what are the chances that anyone from the 53rd anti-aircraft rocket brigade are going to end up in the Netherlands.

[bee]

 

I don't think the implications of this...... are being acknowledged

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43457694

the Ukraine pilot who Russia has concluded after investigation, is the person who, in error, shot down MH17 -
using air to air fire power - believing it to be an 'enemy' military plane (presumably at a distance of 2 - 3 kilometers
and given insufficient information from flight control?) 

only 2 months ago was found dead with a gunshot wound.... at first it was described as a homicide but was then
changed to a suicide... 

now if the MH17 tragic incident goes to court and witnesses are called by various interested parties...
Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn is not available to be called as a witness, questioned and cross examined...

how convenient

the only way that the ground to air missile hypothesis works is if the 'rebels' had the right equipment
and as they didn't the story has to include Russia bringing weaponry in (and then taking it out again)
hence the new '''evidence''' being circulated and is the topic of this thread... mmmmmm

 

 

 

[bee]

 

one thing I think is safe to say ----  whoever was responsible..
is that MH17 was shot down in error because it was mistaken for a military plane.. 

[Coil]

Russia impedes the investigation of the case and in every possible way blocks it. Therefore, I do not think that a full investigation will be because this requires Russia's consent to disclosure of the details of Buk's transportation and who controlled it, which is tantamount to admitting its guilt. Therefore, I think the court will recognize Russia as guilty, impose some fine compensation and Russia will deny involvement.

[bee]

56 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

It seems the criminal investigation of MH17 is being performed by the Joint Investigation Team and is made up of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, and Ukraine with it being lead by the Netherland's Public Prosecution Service.

 

surely it's not right that Malaysia and Ukraine be on that investigation team - because of conflict of interests and too closely involved
with the tragic events... 

or if they are allowed on the actual investigation team then it's only right and proper and fair that Russia is also on it..

 

[SHaYap]

16 minutes ago, Coil said:

Russia impedes the investigation of the case and in every possible way blocks it.

THat's the crux of the matter here and I don't blame them, even before the prosecuting judiciary process began there were already all these 'Public' Opinion experts ready to hang and burn Russia without due process. It just gave them a get out of jail free ticket and messed up the whole process.

What's important is a Criminal and Culpability guilty Verdict in a Court of Law, not a witch hunt.

~

1 minute ago, bee said:

 

surely it's not right that Malaysia and Ukraine be on that investigation team - because of conflict of interests and too closely involved
with the tragic events... 

or if they are allowed on the actual investigation team then it's only right and proper and fair that Russia is also on it..

 

Malaysia's role here is as observer and maintaining an interest on the issue of chain of evidence. Especially after the fiasco that involved with the questionable operation regarding the removable of the plane from the site

~

[bee]

17 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Malaysia's role here is as observer and maintaining an interest on the issue of chain of evidence. Especially after the fiasco that involved with the questionable operation regarding the removable of the plane from the site

~

 

ok..... I was thinking that if their airline's decision to allow the passenger plane to fly over an area where there was active military activity and conflict -

which invoved an element of danger and unpredictability... that they may in the eyes of the law have a share in the culpability...?..... in terms of blame
and compensation...?

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by bee

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, bee said:

 

ok..... I was thinking that if their airline's decision to allow the passenger plane to fly over an area where there active military activity and conflict -

which invoved an element of danger and unpredictability... that they may in the eyes of the law have a share in the culpability...?..... in terms of blame
and compensation...?

Its that nasty muddled situation where who are you going to take the Current Conditional reports from ?

Ukraine and Russia were updating with conflicting Announcements all through the episode, so too were much of Europe, Malaysia Airlines were not the only Commercial Flights plying that route ...

I'm weary of getting into all of this, its been a long and hard time for most Malaysians, with MH370 and MH17 back to back, frankly, its been a bit too much

~

[bee]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

Its that nasty muddled situation where who are you going to take the Current Conditional reports from ?

Ukraine and Russia were updating with conflicting Announcements all through the episode, so too were much of Europe, Malaysia Airlines were not the only Commercial Flights plying that route ...

I'm weary of getting into all of this, its been a long and hard time for most Malaysians, with MH370 and MH17 back to back, frankly, its been a bit too much

~

 

It IS a nasty muddled situation - that's for sure - and I hear you that Malaysia Airlines weren't the only ones going that route

and re bolded..... yes it must be 

[Mr.United_Nations]

6 hours ago, bee said:

 

surely it's not right that Malaysia and Ukraine be on that investigation team - because of conflict of interests and too closely involved
with the tragic events... 

or if they are allowed on the actual investigation team then it's only right and proper and fair that Russia is also on it..

 

The Malaysian government owns about 60% of the airline

[Mr.United_Nations]

6 hours ago, bee said:

 

I don't think the implications of this...... are being acknowledged

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43457694

the Ukraine pilot who Russia has concluded after investigation, is the person who, in error, shot down MH17 -
using air to air fire power - believing it to be an 'enemy' military plane (presumably at a distance of 2 - 3 kilometers
and given insufficient information from flight control?) 

only 2 months ago was found dead with a gunshot wound.... at first it was described as a homicide but was then
changed to a suicide... 

now if the MH17 tragic incident goes to court and witnesses are called by various interested parties...
Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn is not available to be called as a witness, questioned and cross examined...

how convenient

the only way that the ground to air missile hypothesis works is if the 'rebels' had the right equipment
and as they didn't the story has to include Russia bringing weaponry in (and then taking it out again)
hence the new '''evidence''' being circulated and is the topic of this thread... mmmmmm

 

 

 

It's rare for someone who gets blamed for mishaps which is not not Their fault, kills them self in aviation disasters

[bmk1245]

On 5/27/2018 at 11:51 AM, bee said:

 

something else that doesn't make sense..... ^^^

unless perhaps they weren't sure who's missile it was...?... (or were sure but didn't want to say...?)

the background to all this and the intense struggle with the US supporting (driving?)  the Ukraine coup d'etat has to be factored in -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Copies

 Ukraine - soviet copies of M1 variants, designed by Artem Luch Arsenal (Kiev) KBs and built in KhAZ (Kharkov) and Yuzhmash (Dnepr) plants, planned Dnipro SAM system (between Buk and S300P type).

 

You do realize that particular Buk was traced traveling from Russia and then back to Russia? Do you?

[bmk1245]

6 hours ago, bee said:

 

ok..... I was thinking that if their airline's decision to allow the passenger plane to fly over an area where there was active military activity and conflict -

which invoved an element of danger and unpredictability... that they may in the eyes of the law have a share in the culpability...?..... in terms of blame
and compensation...?

 

Well, next thing you will blame Boeing for building plane, then miners for mining ore for plane manufacture, etc. Wait a sec, Russian companies deliver titanium alloy parts for Boeing. Are those companies culpable too?

BTW, why Russia did not closed airspace close to Ukrainian border, huh? Or maybe you think that country border is some impenetrable wall, and missiles launched from Ukraine cannot shoot down plane over Russian territory?

[DarkHunter]

41 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Well, next thing you will blame Boeing for building plane, then miners for mining ore for plane manufacture, etc. Wait a sec, Russian companies deliver titanium alloy parts for Boeing. Are those companies culpable too?

BTW, why Russia did not closed airspace close to Ukrainian border, huh? Or maybe you think that country border is some impenetrable wall, and missiles launched from Ukraine cannot shoot down plane over Russian territory?

Interestingly a few hours before MH17 was shot down Russian ATC closed airspace in the near by area below 53,000 feet.  Coincidentally the maximum height range of the buk missile that was used to bring down MH17 is 46,000 feet.  Russia cited armed conflict for why they put such a high height restriction in place but the highest plane shot down so far was only at 21,500 feet.

[bee]

17 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

You do realize that particular Buk was traced traveling from Russia and then back to Russia? Do you?

 

you do realize that that could be a load of made up bs -  don't you...?

 

[Helen of Annoy]

5 hours ago, bee said:

 

you do realize that that could be a load of made up bs -  don't you...?

 

Well, then this would be an unique case where Russians were making up bs just to blame themselves. 

It's not just 'spy' data, they were plastering every stage all over social media. From the transport of the missiles, to the looting. 

[Mr.United_Nations]

On 30/05/2018 at 10:38 AM, bee said:

 

you do realize that that could be a load of made up bs -  don't you...?

 

You do realise most of the sources are from citizens who support Russia and others who support Ukraine? In fact there' a video of the launcher drivng around the previous day?

[Finity]

Russia is a bit like a naughty kid that will do something with a whole room of people watching, then try to lie about it to those same people

No one believes a word they say. Notice how even China hasn't come to their defense.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Finity