Aquila King Posted May 26, 2018 #1 Share Posted May 26, 2018 (there are some wordy-durds used, so it's displayed as a link instead) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d03IBfuud6Y Length - [12:01] A completely out of touch smug billionaire who doesn't in the least bit understand the current economic struggles of millions of Americans came out with a hardcore Pro-Capitalism book, and is on Fox News railing against Bernie Sanders and his supporters. Of course without the slightest clue what any regular hard working Americans are going through. I've spent many an hour on here trying my best to accurately articulate my perspective on this front, yet I've never come close to doing so nearly as well as this left-wing progressive talk show host did just now... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted May 26, 2018 #2 Share Posted May 26, 2018 21 TRILLION in debt. Another trillion added each year. Perhaps you can explain the process whereby the government adds perhaps 2 or 3 trillion PER YEAR to cover Sander's promises, without the economy crashing totally? I'd really be interested in hearing this. Evil capitalism has built the largest and most robust economy the world has ever seen. The opposite of that system is being tried in Venezuela. They sit on more oil than Saudi Arabia yet their citizens are hunting dogs, cats, and rats in the streets for meat to eat. THAT is where friendly, "democratic" socialism arrives, EVERY TIME IT IS TRIED. Without fail. The difference between socialism and capitalism is the group at the top who live in luxury and the size of the group at the bottom that are starving. In capitalism, it is MUCH fewer people. 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted May 26, 2018 Author #3 Share Posted May 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, and then said: 21 TRILLION in debt. Another trillion added each year. Perhaps you can explain the process whereby the government adds perhaps 2 or 3 trillion PER YEAR to cover Sander's promises, without the economy crashing totally? I'd really be interested in hearing this. Stop pretending like you give a crap about the deficit when the Republican tax bill last year added 1.5 trillion more dollars to the deficit due to tax cuts for the super rich. You don't care about the deficit, or else you wouldn't be adding to it for the rich to get even richer. Adding to the deficit is fine, so long as it suits the needs of the elite. Endless war with an insane military budget? Sure. But as for expanding programs that help middle Americans? Nope. Can't do that. Funny how you never stop to say "we don't have enough money to bomb Syria." You don't say that because it isn't about money, it's about priorities. As for the actual numbers regarding how to pay for it, just Google it for god sakes. I've linked to it and explained it numerous times on here before, and it doesn't do a damn bit of good explaining it to people who at the end of the day don't care. 24 minutes ago, and then said: Evil capitalism has built the largest and most robust economy the world has ever seen. If that's true, then there should be plenty of money to spend on what I'm talking about. You say we have the greatest economy ever, but then say we don't have enough money to pay for the bare minimum. You can't have it both ways. No, we have the best economy for the mega rich since all the money floats up to the top while the middle and bottom struggle to survive. Half of all Americans make around $30,000 a year or less. Does that sound like a good economy to you? Of course not. It's only a good economy for those rare few at the top who profit off of such cheap labor. That's it. 29 minutes ago, and then said: The opposite of that system is being tried in Venezuela. They sit on more oil than Saudi Arabia yet their citizens are hunting dogs, cats, and rats in the streets for meat to eat. THAT is where friendly, "democratic" socialism arrives, EVERY TIME IT IS TRIED. Without fail. You either didn't watch the video, haven't listen to a word I've said, or don't care and are simply repeating the same ol' bulls**t talking points in hopes that if you repeat it enough times it'll somehow be true. I'm advocating for a system as is practiced in Scandinavia. All of the polls and statistics have for decades coming out of that region been stellar in almost every way. They're kicking our ass in pretty much every area. You can pretend to deny those objective statistics all you want, but they're there and it's blatantly obvious why it is. Those or all countries with social democratic systems like the one I've been advocating here. If democratic socialism (the specific kind I'm advocating for) were so bad, then those countries would be in the toilet. Instead, they're booming. Again, the polls and statistics prove this to be the case. Oh, and as for the "butwhatabout Venezuela!?!?" argument, please click here for the full rebuttal. You're really just parroting propagandized BS you've heard some place else. 39 minutes ago, and then said: The difference between socialism and capitalism is the group at the top who live in luxury and the size of the group at the bottom that are starving. In capitalism, it is MUCH fewer people That statement is so divorced from reality it is simply unfathomable... Literally the exact opposite is true... 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 26, 2018 #4 Share Posted May 26, 2018 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 26, 2018 #5 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Perfect! The doctor who serves Tribal Services would have me on 3 prescriptions ( getting kicks from the drug companies who also kick the insurance company) and recommended 4 surgeries ( getting kicked from the surgeons who know the insurance companies will pay) . The guy I pay 300 bucks a visit to just gave me diet recommendations and sent me for tests. Then said the side effects and risks of the said surgeries are not worth it. The slum lords who own the HUD housing ( mainly politicians) get 900 bucks a month per unit and they are so small and wretched they are worth about 300. Tribal members who never worked a day in their lives just pop out kids like a Yellow Jacket machine at a truck stop so when one turns 18 the next one will be your "honey pot" Phil Murphy is giving drivers licenses to illegals who will drive without insurance regardless ( I'm thinking registered votes) Said illegal immigrants and tribal members get "car vouchers" and drive them without licenses and insurance. But the car dealer makes money and then kicks to the politician. Vets don't get 1/4 of the services illegals get. Just that flag on the free grave and a very ****ty hospital. Ain't Democrats and socialism wonderful????? 7 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted May 26, 2018 Author #6 Share Posted May 26, 2018 @Piney, I have no earthly idea what you're even talking about. I mean I get that you're being facetious and all, but not one bit of that is in the least bit what I'm advocating for. Way to straw man the opposition there bud. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 26, 2018 #7 Share Posted May 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Aquila King said: @Piney, I have no earthly idea what you're even talking about. I mean I get that you're being facetious and all, but not one bit of that is in the least bit what I'm advocating for. Way to straw man the opposition there bud. Kid, you never lived on a rez or in a ghetto. I've seen socialism at it's "finest". Indian loggers, climbers and ranch hands despise it. We wouldn't lift a finger to help our lazy mooching relatives. We certainly don't want our government taking our tax money to do it. I also switched from socialized medicine to "out of pocket" medicine because they want to shove things on me I don't need to make a buck. Bernie and every other socialist I met never had to work hard or take risks for their money. We kill ourselves and risk our lives every day. high steel, high trees, bad forest fires , weather and animals who will stomp you dead. Trump hates us, but everyone I talked to on the "trail" voted for him... Our ghetto was shoved full of illegals and you should see the "profiteering" done with them. Then they treat vets like **** because they would get busted profiteering off of them. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 26, 2018 #8 Share Posted May 26, 2018 (edited) @Aquila King No offense kid. But I am so sick of going up to Rowan University to see my sister on Sundays and hear this white collar kid who never had to truly bust his ass or risk his life to make a buck talk about Bernie ****ng Sanders Edited May 26, 2018 by Piney 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted May 27, 2018 Author #9 Share Posted May 27, 2018 13 minutes ago, Piney said: Kid, you never lived on a rez or in a ghetto. I've seen socialism at it's "finest". Indian loggers, climbers and ranch hands despise it. We wouldn't lift a finger to help our lazy mooching relatives. We certainly don't want our government taking our tax money to do it. I also switched from socialized medicine to "out of pocket" medicine because they want to shove things on me I don't need to make a buck. With all due respect, your anecdotal accounts of 'socialist' woes bear no heed in regards to the objective statistical facts. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Scandinavian nations are a prime example of what I'm talking about here. I'm not sure where you experienced these negative effects of 'socialism' (or even if you could really call it 'socialism', at least the socialism I'm advocating for since socialism is a rather broad vague spectrum of a term like 'conservatism'), but the fact is millions do benefit from it. If you've genuinely had negative experiences with it then I truly am sorry for you, but I gotta go where the facts lead. And the fact is, social democracies flourish in nearly every conceivable way. 18 minutes ago, Piney said: Bernie and every other socialist I met never had to work hard or take risks for their money. We kill ourselves and risk our lives every day. high steel, high trees, bad forest fires , weather and animals who will stomp you dead. That's a slanderous lie. I've worked my ass off before for 6 months working 12 hour shifts with double time on weekends lifting steel wheels all day in a factory. The only reason I left was because of numerous injuries I suffered as well as mental problems I deal with such as PTSD, ADD, and panic attacks that inhibited my ability to focus and do the job. Yes, I'm currently unemployed (as some conservative pricks want to point out), but I have my reasons that came to me to no fault of my own. This idea that those of us who genuinely need assistance in certain areas are just 'lazy' and expect 'free stuff' is an absolute bulls**t slanderous lie, and I'm quite frankly sick to death of hearing it. Me 'not working hard enough' is not the reason I'm unemployed. No amount of work ethic can change my ****ing psychological issues. If I told you I had a physical disability, you'd most likely be more sympathetic. However if I say I have psychological trauma from dealing with years of repeatedly being raped as a kid by my father which impedes in my ability to cope with common everyday stresses and my ability to focus on tasks and interact socially with people out in public without having full-blown anxiety attacks through no fault of my own, then suddenly it seems the conservative response is simply "get over it." How much sense would that make as a response to someone with some physical disability? "Just get over it and get a job." Well ya know, I've tried that actually and failed. Tried it 4 times in fact. First 2 at Walmart, 3rd at an antique shop, and 4th at the factory. I've worked my absolute ****ing buns off for years and it's gotten me absolutely nowhere. You know why? Because good work-ethic doesn't solve these kinds of issues that impede in my ability to maintain a stable job. Thankfully I've been working on these issues with multiple psych people the past few years, and am now on medication. I'm doing much better now, as back just a few years ago I wouldn't even be able to write all this to you publicly. But since I haven't been able to properly maintain a job after several failed attempts, I've been seeing these people on my mother's health insurance which runs out next year when I turn 26. And according to conservatives like yourself, I shouldn't be able to work on my psych problems with any counselors or have any psych medication that will help me to be able to hopefully soon be able to re-enter the work force as a functioning adult, since you oppose universal healthcare (or really any socialized healthcare) and just want to slander me and say I'm too 'lazy' to work and play the blame game. Well quite frankly, the blame game doesn't sole a damn thing. I mean, under that logic I guess the entire psych industry should go out of business since we can just sit people down and say "get over it" and everything will magically be fine? Schizophrenic? Bipolar? PTSD? "JUST GET OVER IT". Do you honestly think I want to be talked down to by uppity pricks like you telling me I'm just 'lazy' and need to 'get over it' and 'get a job'? Do you think I want to be 25 and completely socially isolated from the world? Do you think I want to be fully dependent on someone else? Do you think I want to not be able to go on a date, or have a family, and live a normal ass life? Do you think I want to not be able to take pride in the fact that I've worked hard to achieve something and did it? Do you think I want to despise every aspect of myself to the core pit of my stomach that I've spent many a night contemplating suicide in shear disgust and shame for my situation? DO YOU REALLY THINK I WANT TO BE IN THIS SITUATION!?!?!? You don't in the least bit understand me or what I've been through. You don't understand what I suffer with on a daily basis. And sadly it appears that most conservatives don't seem to give a damn. And the worst part is, I'm only one example out of the literally millions of other disadvantaged people out there who through some sort of unforeseen circumstances that came to them through no fault of their own, are unable to make it in life without some sort of assistance. I have experienced their pain, and their struggles, and I want to help them. Conservatives don't. All you want to do is point a condescending accusatory finger and slander the weak and helpless. Shame on you. (and for the record, no, I'm not on any sort of government assistance. You aren't currently paying for squat to help me here. So don't even go there) 1 hour ago, Piney said: @Aquila King No offense kid. But I am so sick of going up to Rowan University to see my sister on Sundays and hear this white collar kid who never had to truly bust his ass or risk his life to make a buck talk about Bernie ****ng Sanders White collar? If you're talking about me, then think again. I'm living solely off a portion of my mother's retired teacher's income. I've been lower middle-class all my life. And quite frankly, doing certain benign simple tasks are a major struggle for me. Have been for pretty much my entire life due to what I just explained above. My personal struggles require an intense amount of work, the kind of which I doubt you will ever truly fathom. Don't talk down to me like I don't understand what I'm doing here. I'm doing whatever it is I need to to eventually be able to function and survive. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #10 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 minute ago, Aquila King said: With all due respect, your anecdotal accounts of 'socialist' woes bear no heed in regards to the objective statistical facts. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Scandinavian nations are a prime example of what I'm talking about here. They also have checks and balances which nip welfare profiteering in the bud and when a corrupt official gets caught they go straight to prison. 5 minutes ago, Aquila King said: I deal with such as PTSD, ADD, and panic attacks that inhibited my ability to focus and do the job. Yes, I'm currently unemployed (as some conservative pricks want to point out), but I have my reasons that came to me to no fault of my own. I deal with full blown autism and chemical imbalance depression. I use diet and exercise to combat the depression. I don't go for the PTSD thing as neither does my boss ( a combat Marine) or my deceased stepfather ( 1st Cav gunship driver in Vietnam). I suffered constant beatings from my mothers husband and served as a ARC-CAP battlefield medic ( a guy who can't shoot back), the violent loss of a son and spent 3 years in one of the most dangerous prisons in the country. It's a excuse. I use my ADD to pay attention to my entire surroundings as what it is meant for. It's a evolutionary advantage. Not a handicap. You just have to figure out how to "draw in" your focus. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 27, 2018 #11 Share Posted May 27, 2018 "Alright boys, get to it." 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #12 Share Posted May 27, 2018 @Aquila King When I crawled out of that hellhole Southwoods at 47 years old. I had nothing. They took my farm, my teaching certificate, my security license. Then tried to put me on SSI disability and give me a part time job at a fast food joint. I was sick and I was homeless. My stepfather gave me 3 skills as a teen. Swing a chainsaw, fix internal combustion engines and wrangle horses and I rebuilt my life myself. I refused anything from anybody but work and I refused to live with my sister because there was no work for me around her. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #13 Share Posted May 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, XenoFish said: "Alright boys, get to it." I know. I'm a dick when your in a bad mood so I was expecting this. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #14 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Aquila King said: Do you honestly think I want to be talked down to by uppity pricks like you telling me I'm just 'lazy' and need to 'get over it' and 'get a job'? Do you think I want to be 25 and completely socially isolated from the world? Do you think I want to be fully dependent on someone else? Do you think I want to not be able to go on a date, or have a family, and live a normal ass life? Do you think I want to not be able to take pride in the fact that I've worked hard to achieve something and did it? Do you think I want to despise every aspect of myself to the core pit of my stomach that I've spent many a night contemplating suicide in shear disgust and shame for my situation? DO YOU REALLY THINK I WANT TO BE IN THIS SITUATION!?!?!? No, and I would never say that to you. Just be a "sounding board" knowing I can't help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 27, 2018 #15 Share Posted May 27, 2018 In life you have two choices. You either let your problems hold you back, or you make it work regardless of them. All our lives are F'd up to a degree. It's what you choose to do with it that matters. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #16 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 minute ago, XenoFish said: In life you have two choices. You either let your problems hold you back, or you make it work regardless of them. All our lives are F'd up to a degree. It's what you choose to do with it that matters. Nobody can understand my boss and my relationship. A famous Marine shooter and a Quaker pacifist. He told me it's who people are is what he respects. Not what they are. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 27, 2018 #17 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Just now, Piney said: Nobody can understand my boss and my relationship. A famous Marine shooter and a Quaker pacifist. He told me it's who people are is what he respects. Not what they are. That's a good way to be. It's best to judge the qualities of a person than the packaging. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted May 27, 2018 Author #18 Share Posted May 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, Piney said: They also have checks and balances which nip welfare profiteering in the bud and when a corrupt official gets caught they go straight to prison. So basically you admit that it is possible for a social democratic system to function properly? (of course with an added bunch of unfounded conservative postulations, but nonetheless) 13 minutes ago, Piney said: @Aquila King When I crawled out of that hellhole Southwoods at 47 years old. I had nothing. They took my farm, my teaching certificate, my security license. Then tried to put me on SSI disability and give me a part time job at a fast food joint. I was sick and I was homeless. My stepfather gave me 3 skills as a teen. Swing a chainsaw, fix internal combustion engines and wrangle horses and I rebuilt my life myself. I refused anything from anybody but work and I refused to live with my sister because there was no work for me around her. https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/equal-opportunity-our-national-myth/ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/17/telling-young-person-get-job-education-employment https://themighty.com/2017/05/unemployed-mental-illness-secrets/ Fact is Piney, what you're describing here is your personal situation, not mine. Nor anyone else's. You grew up in a time period that was much more economically secure, as well as a variety of different factors that many of which I don't even know of that would've affected your personal situation, not mine. It's incredibly arrogant and simplistic to assume that what works for you, works for all people. That the solution to your situation, is the solution to all other situations. Especially considering that mental illness is a spectrum. So in short: You don't know me, or my situation. So don't assume that you know how to solve any of it. Especially when your only solution (as is typical for the average conservative) is to play the blame game. 20 minutes ago, Piney said: No, and I would never say that to you. Just be a "sounding board" knowing I can't help. Of course you can't help. Because pointing fingers doesn't solve anything. 8 minutes ago, Piney said: I deal with full blown autism and chemical imbalance depression. I use diet and exercise to combat the depression. I don't go for the PTSD thing as neither does my boss ( a combat Marine) or my deceased stepfather ( 1st Cav gunship driver in Vietnam). I suffered constant beatings from my mothers husband and served as a ARC-CAP battlefield medic ( a guy who can't shoot back), the violent loss of a son and spent 3 years in one of the most dangerous prisons in the country. It's a excuse. I use my ADD to pay attention to my entire surroundings as what it is meant for. It's a evolutionary advantage. Not a handicap. You just have to figure out how to "draw in" your focus. I want you to know that I am genuinely sympathetic towards those hardships you've been through. Regardless of political ideology, I wouldn't wish anyone to go through any of that under any circumstance. Nor will I blame you for any of it. That being said, the bolded above is absolute horse s**t. It doesn't matter whether you 'go for it' or not in regards to PTSD, because it is a real condition that affects millions of people in numerous negative ways whether you acknowledge it's affects or not. ADD may indeed be beneficial in certain situations. However, based on the structure of our current modern society be it through school or most work opportunities, it is for the most part more of a hindrance then it is any sort of advantage. 'Just figuring out how to focus' is akin to telling someone who's bipolar 'just figure out how to be emotionally stable.' It's built into their brain chemistry to where such effects are subconscious and out of their ability to control. If you think you do this, you're mistaken. You may be able to alter your level of focus through manual practice, but doing so to the extent of an all-out 'cure' is next to impossible. And as for the "it's an excuse" remark: What if (for the sake of argument) that it was an excuse? Would that suddenly make it invalid? If I told you that I couldn't run in a marathon because I was crippled and in a wheelchair, would you tell me: "that's just an excuse." ? Of course it's a bloody excuse, yet given the situation it's a pretty ****ing valid one. I don't personally see it as an 'excuse' however, as ultimately I am currently working on the situation so as to be able to properly function in society. An excuse would be a way of invalidating any further action. It would be me saying: "this is my current situation because of x, y, and z, therefore I don't have to work or become a functioning member of society, period." Listing out reasons for why I'm in the state I'm in is different, in that it merely describes and validates my current position. It says nothing towards any future action. One can give you reasons for being in a situation, whilst simultaneously working on that same situation in hopes of fixing it, and that's exactly what I'm doing. So no, it isn't an 'excuse'. I'm taking my meds, going to counseling, and even working with job training aides. I've placed numerous applications into places over and over recently to which I have received 0 replies due to no one wanting to hire someone with a few years of no work history. These are all legitimate reasons for why I'm in the situation I'm in, however I am legitimately still working towards achieving my goals. If you knew in the least bit where I came from and who I was previously, you would be astonished at where I am today. I have absolutely no plans of remaining in my current situation, and am actively working towards remedying the situation. However it does not fix itself overnight. And regardless, I feel no further need to justify myself to you or anyone else on here. I have opened myself up on here for what I think will be the last and final time. I only did so in the hopes that someone here could understand that there are some people who do not have the exact same equal opportunities as other people, and who for whatever reason find themselves in situations that come to them through no fault of their own. Yet unfortunately, even that it appears is at a loss. You don't know me, you don't know my situation, and you have now shown that you don't in the least bit care. So quite frankly Piney, you can go **** off. Think what you want of me, I'm moving on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #19 Share Posted May 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, Aquila King said: Of course you can't help. Because pointing fingers doesn't solve anything. 1 hour ago, Piney said: I didn't. I just told you my ideology after seeing all the corruption in my tribe, other tribes and the ghetto in Camden. 4 minutes ago, Aquila King said: And regardless, I feel no further need to justify myself to you or anyone else on here. I didn't ask you to. 6 minutes ago, Aquila King said: So basically you admit that it is possible for a social democratic system to function properly? (of course with an added bunch of unfounded conservative postulations, but nonetheless) 43 minutes ago, Piney said: Only if laws are passed to stop people from using it to make money. 9 minutes ago, Aquila King said: I only did so in the hopes that someone here could understand that there are some people who do not have the exact same equal opportunities as other people, and who for whatever reason find themselves in situations that come to them through no fault of their own. Yet unfortunately, even that it appears is at a loss. You don't know me, you don't know my situation, and you have now shown that you don't in the least bit care. So quite frankly Piney, you can go **** off. Think what you want of me, I'm moving on. I I help my boss with disabled veterans all the time. I started out helping Indian ones at our tribal center before I went to prison than branched out with my boss and I haven't shown that I don't care about your situation just what I think about the current system. It needs to be cleaned up before being rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #20 Share Posted May 27, 2018 19 minutes ago, Aquila King said: It doesn't matter whether you 'go for it' or not in regards to PTSD, because it is a real condition that affects millions of people in numerous negative ways whether you acknowledge it's affects or not. Only if you let it. You think I don't have nightmares of bloodied bodies, prison shakedowns with SWAT teams or my son's body hanging?......... ......way too often..... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted May 27, 2018 Author #21 Share Posted May 27, 2018 36 minutes ago, Aquila King said: I feel no further need to justify myself to you or anyone else on here. That ^ is all I have left to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted May 27, 2018 #22 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Tax cuts don't add to the debt. Excess spending does. At this point, any spending adds to the debt. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidhead Posted May 27, 2018 #23 Share Posted May 27, 2018 You can lead a horse to water Piney... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted May 27, 2018 #24 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Teaching folks how to focus their Autistic hyper focus is precisely what we do in order to help them get into the wider world beyond the relatively sheltered world of schooling (please note - I said relatively and I’m an idealist who thinks modern education systems on the whole actually help people and don’t live in America). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted May 27, 2018 #25 Share Posted May 27, 2018 4 hours ago, acidhead said: You can lead a horse to water Piney... People don't have true adversity anymore. There is always a crutch to fall back on. True adversity is needed for social development. That's the primary purpose of a Vision Quest. To be thrown in a situation where you are rock bottom with no help. Not just looking for a " spirit helper" but helping yourself. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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