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AnchorSteam

A brilliant take on the God Paradox ...

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AnchorSteam
Posted (edited)

... from a freaking anime?!? :o

 

Yeah, I know, weird .... and I gave up on anime after I realized I would never see a series as good as Clannad or a movie as good as Wolf Children. This one isn't, either, but bear with him here.

 

A six-minute vid explains it in more detail than I can here;

 

 

In brief; a Tokyo businessman (and a dick) is killed in 2013 by someone he just fired. At the moment of his death he is frozen in that time by something he refers to as "Being X" .... since he is so steeped in Humanism that he can't accept the existence of God even when confronted directly by it. 

Being X takes this badly, and gives the guy one last chance with a reincarnation; as a girl in 1913 Germany. However, it is not the same earth, it isn't even Germany, but called The Empire, and by 1923 it is at war with France (republic) Scandanavia (triple alliance) and the grand dutchy (of Romania).

Oh yeah, and magic works here, for a very few people. 

This gives little Tanya a chance to get out of the orphanage and join the Army. Yes, this is somewhat ridiculous, but Tanya knows that the army is a Meritocracy and she can rise to the top more quickly there than any other place. She is a real Wiz(ard) in this incarnation, and so ..... yeah, suspension of disbelief is called for there, but not in any other point of this show. In fact, this series has the most detailed and truthful analysis of the German General Staff that I have ever seen. Anywhere.

The German Army didn't kick but because they were Supermen or any other nonsense, it was because their Generals had risen to the top of the only organization in human history where what men knew was more important than who they knew.

And Tanya still has her memories of that other Earth, where things were very similar.

 

Being X is still stalking her, an ideological war that mirrors what the "Empire" itself is going wrong. The General Staff is supremely logical and takes no account of how emotions can rule other people's decisions, even as they are being defeated on the battlefield. The Generals assume they have won when the math tells them so.... 

Being X is exactly the same way with Tanya, and it is fascinating to watch it happen.

As the clip above says;  "Despite the fact that Being X is far more powerful than Tanya,  she completely has the advantage over him because of his ignorance concerning Human Nature."

and all can can say in response is "Oh HELL yeah!" 

 

This was not based on a Manga, but a "light" novel instead. I am a little surprised that it made it to an anime series, IMHO it is not terrible well written, but I have a link to a translation if you want it.

I'll stop there for now, and see if I get any bites on this. 

Edited by AnchorSteam
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Aquila King

Very interesting concepts being thrown out here.

From what I gather, 'god' in this scenario is merely a representative stand-in for cold hard logic, objectivity, and absolutism. Whereas mankind is representative of pure emotion, subjectivism, and relativism. 

I don't have much more to add to this here at 2am. :sleepy: But I'll certainly ponder it a bit and get back to ya on this.

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Aquila King
56 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

I gave up on anime after I realized I would never see a series as good as Clannad or a movie as good as Wolf Children.

I fully understand your reasoning there. Both are fantastic and pull right on the heart strings. :cry:

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AnchorSteam
31 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

From what I gather, 'god' in this scenario is merely a representative stand-in for cold hard logic, objectivity, and absolutism. Whereas mankind is representative of pure emotion, subjectivism, and relativism. 

 

Well, somewhat. There is a mix in both cases. God appears to be miffed, especially when the businessman scoffs at God's complaint that he can't deal with 7 billion people. saying that "Overwork is a sign of a failed business model."

Cheeky... and true.

And the flip-side is the General Staff's reliance on logic. A highly skilled bunch, but almost as coldly aloof as a bunch of damn Vulcans.

(almost, did I say? Well....)

This is the key scene -

 

Anyway, wanted to talk about the concepts, not the anime so much.

 

It does seem that any God would have to be an alien presence, not Human by any means, and therefore at a severe and permanent handicap when dealing with human beings as anything but a glorified Zookeeper.

Hands off would appear to be the best solution, but then Faith inevitably goes bye-bye. 

It would appear that this is more of a quandary for a supreme being, rather than for anyone else in the Universe. 

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)

Could you explain a bit more  how you see this fitting into a spiritual or religious context even as a piece of fiction.  The plot sounds interesting although I am a bit old for manga  ( I have read comics all my life but the Japanese cultural background of most manga just doesn't appeal to me despite loving Japanese traditional culture, history, and especially their  political and military history)   

is the story saying he encountered god but can only perceive or accept it as being x,  and because he is p***ed off,god sets a  task designed to bring the protagonist to acceptance of god.  

Edited by Mr Walker
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XenoFish
3 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

It does seem that any God would have to be an alien presence, not Human by any means, and therefore at a severe and permanent handicap when dealing with human beings as anything but a glorified Zookeeper.

This is really what an indifferent god would be. I've thought about this a lot over the years. That such a cosmos creating entity would care about us. Wouldn't personally invest in us, as we would be a short lived (especially on the cosmic scale) organism. Here and gone compared to it. 

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Opus Magnus
Posted (edited)

I can't play the videos right now, but it sounds like how God says the Jews in the Bible, have 'stiff necks' and can't change their ways at all. They tried to kill all their prophets,  and inprison them almost from Moses, to Jeremiah to Jesus.

Edited by Opus Magnus

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XenoFish

Moses didn't exist and neither did Jesus. The myth fantasy is strong in you.:rolleyes:

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AnchorSteam
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Could you explain a bit more  how you see this fitting into a spiritual or religious context even as a piece of fiction.  The plot sounds interesting although I am a bit old for manga ----

 

1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

I can't play the videos right now ---

Oh.... it wasn't from a Manga, but a Novella. And it starts right off with the man and his death in Tokyo. Here is the translation ( a WIP, actually) -

http://skythewood.blogspot.sg/p/youjo-senki.html

Youjo Senki translates as "War Diary of a little girl" and the anime is titled "The saga of Tanya the Evil" .... so we have the usual weirdness with titles going on.

 

and in basic terms, there is a disconnect between the creator and the created that is so vast that it does not seem to be something that can be mended in a world such as ours. IMHO, faith is going away because it deserves to go away. The Childhood of the species is over, it is time for us to make our own way.

And in the story, the parallel between God and the German General Staff is spot-on; no matter how intelligent, accomplished and successful they are, final victory keeps slipping from their grasp because the world itself does not fit into their narrow conception of what it is or should be. Tanya herself keeps trying to explain this, and both parties don't seem to be able to understand it. Both parties give her power and send her off to do their bidding, and Tanya becomes a vicious killed who hates the war but still goes to battle with grim enthusiasm because that is all that is left to her. 

And the enemy don't see her as anything but a monster, of course.  

Oddly, it is the General Staff that are the only ones that respect her and listen to her... but it still isn't doing any good. 

Maybe it is the corruption that is power, or maybe the created are too wedded to the flaws of the creator.

 

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Opus Magnus
20 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Moses didn't exist and neither did Jesus. The myth fantasy is strong in you.:rolleyes:

Yeah, and I find your lack of faith disturbing. But this would be an example of having a stiff neck, as certainly more of it exists than you'll claim because in Moses' books that are thousands of years old, the Canaanites are mentioned that we now know really existed in that area as mentioned in Judges 3:1.

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Opus Magnus
Posted (edited)

Yeah, I don't know if it has any relation to the Militant Atheists, and Society of the Godless of Russia, but it sounds like it might. The flawed creator makes a lot of sense from a human viewpoint, as God warned the Jews they would know his breech of promise when he got angry and took back his word from letting them into the promised land the way he originally promised they would.

Numbers 14:34 

After the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall you bear your iniquities, even forty years, and you shall know my breach of promise

Edited by Opus Magnus

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XenoFish
21 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

Yeah, and I find your lack of faith disturbing. But this would be an example of having a stiff neck, as certainly more of it exists than you'll claim because in Moses' books that are thousands of years old, the Canaanites are mentioned that we now know really existed in that area as mentioned in Judges 3:1.

No, it would be an example of actual research instead of biblical assumptions. The bible is basically a work of historic fiction. With much of it borrowing from older stories and legends. Even having it's own fabrications. 

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Opus Magnus
35 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No, it would be an example of actual research instead of biblical assumptions. The bible is basically a work of historic fiction. With much of it borrowing from older stories and legends. Even having it's own fabrications. 

It is actual archaeology that confirmed the Canaanites in Lebanon like it says they dwelt in Lebanon in Judges 3:1. We just went over this in the Adam and Eve thread. Nobody has ever debunked all the history in the Bible, they just claim 'not enough evidence' but there is some evidence. You keep claiming there is no evidence which is a vulgar lie and shows your stiff neck.

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XenoFish
6 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

It is actual archaeology that confirmed the Canaanites in Lebanon like it says they dwelt in Lebanon in Judges 3:1. We just went over this in the Adam and Eve thread. Nobody has ever debunked all the history in the Bible, they just claim 'not enough evidence' but there is some evidence. You keep claiming there is no evidence which is a vulgar lie and shows your stiff neck.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/historical-fiction

Historical fiction is defined as movies and novels in which a story is made up but is set in the past and sometimes borrows true characteristics of the time period in which it is set.

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Opus Magnus
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

http://www.yourdictionary.com/historical-fiction

Historical fiction is defined as movies and novels in which a story is made up but is set in the past and sometimes borrows true characteristics of the time period in which it is set.

Regardless, it contains real ancient history, as had been proven with the DNA testing of Canaanite skeletons. If it's right about that, than how much of Moses may be true, as he is claimed to have battled them. You are jumping to conclusions.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Opus Magnus said:

Regardless, it contains real ancient history, as had been proven with the DNA testing of Canaanite skeletons. If it's right about that, than how much of Moses may be true, as he is claimed to have battled them. You are jumping to conclusions.

You still miss the point. It's all stories. Where the only actual connection to reality are places and people. Doesn't make God real. 

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danydandan

Jumping to conclusions?

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Opus Magnus
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

You still miss the point. It's all stories. Where the only actual connection to reality are places and people. Doesn't make God real. 

It's not all stories is where the point is being missed. As it says the Canaanites were in Lebanon thousands of years ago, and that's where the archaeologists found their skeletons. The temple in Jerusalem is known to exist, and there are physical ruins. You are selling a lie when you call it stories/ fables/ fiction, because it is more than that. You're trying to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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danydandan
10 minutes ago, Opus Magnus said:

It's not all stories is where the point is being missed. As it says the Canaanites were in Lebanon thousands of years ago, and that's where the archaeologists found their skeletons. The temple in Jerusalem is known to exist, and there are physical ruins. You are selling a lie when you call it stories/ fables/ fiction, because it is more than that. You're trying to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I agree with you, the Bible does have historical significance, in particular the new testament. Some of the stories have real historical settings, but some also don't. Dismissing the whole Bible because one story is inaccurate is a logical fallacy. It's like a fallacy of division, also saying the whole Bible is true because one aspect is true is a fallacy of composition.

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jmccr8
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Jumping to conclusions?

Hi Dany

Only once then the leprechaun's nailed his boots to the floor right in front of their pot of gold.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
spulling

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danydandan
8 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Dany

Only once then the leprechaun's nailed his boots to the floor right in front of their pot of gold.

jmccr8

I actually have my own personal leprechaun, he gives me lucky charms.

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jmccr8
Just now, danydandan said:

I actually have my own personal leprechaun, he gives me lucky charms.

yeah me too.:lol::tu:

jmccr8

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XenoFish
32 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Jumping to conclusions?

You talking to me? 

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danydandan
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You talking to me? 

Nope. Was talking to Opus.

I was gonna write the whole taxi driver scene.

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AnchorSteam
On 5/27/2018 at 11:47 AM, XenoFish said:

You still miss the point. It's all stories. Where the only actual connection to reality are places and people. Doesn't make God real. 

Well, I think the point might be that (in this thread, anyway) that God probably does exist .... he's just not the kind of person that anyone in their right mind would want to associate themselves with , if they had a choice.

 

On 5/27/2018 at 12:25 PM, danydandan said:

I was gonna write the whole taxi driver scene.

Oh really, which one would that be? 

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