Congrats to Irish women!

[danydandan]

13 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

I have to admit, I was surprised by it.

Even pro-choice people don't like abortion. 

We just understand that it's not a perfect world. 

The celebratory scenes were very classless.

[GlitterRose]

I can understand women feeling relieved that an oppressive ban has been lifted.

I just can't understand anyone celebrating abortion. 

No matter where you stand on it, it's an ugly thing.

I wish it was a perfect world where every child was healthy and wanted.

I wish there never were instances where this would even need to be considered. 

[Dark_Grey]

2 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I wish there never were instances where this would even need to be considered. 

The vast majority of the time, abortion doesn't need to be considered because it's almost always unnecessary. When it was illegal, the idea would at least give pause before having sex without a contraceptive. Now, it's essentially a free for all at the expense of human life. 

Can any one pull the stats on required abortions vs. abortions for convenience? Somewhere in the abortion argument, the concept of "personal responsibility" is shouted over with "right to choose". You already had the right to choose: it's called "abstinence" or one of a hundred different birth control methods which have never been cheaper or more wildly available. I used to be in there with the "right to choose" crowd until I start applying a little critical thought and stepped outside the bubble of feelings to see it for what it is.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

The vast majority of the time, abortion doesn't need to be considered because it's almost always unnecessary. When it was illegal, the idea would at least give pause before having sex without a contraceptive. Now, it's essentially a free for all at the expense of human life. 

Can any one pull the stats on required abortions vs. abortions for convenience? Somewhere in the abortion argument, the concept of "personal responsibility" is shouted over with "right to choose". You already had the right to choose: it's called "abstinence" or one of a hundred different birth control methods which have never been cheaper or more wildly available. I used to be in there with the "right to choose" crowd until I start applying a little critical thought and stepped outside the bubble of feelings to see it for what it is.

It's removal of fertilized egg cell that already started multiplying.

The only argument in favour of 'fertilized egg is a person' is religious, and only relatively recently - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any early Christian panic over the possibility a miscarriage was maybe induced. And natural miscarriages do happen. Forgive me for I'm about to say something tasteless, but there's no funeral after a miscarriage in early pregnancy. It even often goes unrecognized as such.  

 

Also, I don't think you can stop people from having sex by anti-abortion law. No matter how strict. But you can make a lot of women die from septic shock.

[danydandan]

23 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It's removal of fertilized egg cell that already started multiplying.

The only argument in favour of 'fertilized egg is a person' is religious, and only relatively recently - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any early Christian panic over the possibility a miscarriage was maybe induced. And natural miscarriages do happen. Forgive me for I'm about to say something tasteless, but there's no funeral after a miscarriage in early pregnancy. It even often goes unrecognized as such.  

 

Also, I don't think you can stop people from having sex by anti-abortion law. No matter how strict. But you can make a lot of women die from septic shock.

I wonder how many men are willing to take contraceptive measures?

The Christian argument is also irrelevant, as the Bible states life begins at first breath.

I also don't think that even one person ever stopped in the middle of unprotected sex and said "let's stop abortion is illegal". We all know it finished.

Edited May 28, 2018 by danydandan

[DarkHunter]

2 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

The vast majority of the time, abortion doesn't need to be considered because it's almost always unnecessary. When it was illegal, the idea would at least give pause before having sex without a contraceptive. Now, it's essentially a free for all at the expense of human life. 

Can any one pull the stats on required abortions vs. abortions for convenience? Somewhere in the abortion argument, the concept of "personal responsibility" is shouted over with "right to choose". You already had the right to choose: it's called "abstinence" or one of a hundred different birth control methods which have never been cheaper or more wildly available. I used to be in there with the "right to choose" crowd until I start applying a little critical thought and stepped outside the bubble of feelings to see it for what it is.

Had some time so I looked it up and the numbers are all over the place and depends on which study you decide to go with.

First there is Guttmacher institute, basically the research arm of planned parenthood.  They have that 12% of abortions are for concerns over the mother's health, but there is a rather large caveat with that number.  Apparently mother's health does not necessarily equal to life threatening as the health concerns they list range from cancer to morning sickness.

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2005/reasons-us-women-have-abortions-quantitative-and-qualitative-perspectives

Finding good abortion statistics for the nation, let alone globally, is rather difficult but it is a bit easier to do it by state for some states in America.  While this is only 1 state, Florida actually keeps track of the reason for an abortion.  For an abortion that is performed cause birth would be life threatening to the mother Florida had 47 out of 72,023 abortions in 2015, or about 0.067%.  If you factor in all health reasons, physical and mental, then it would only reach 0.67%.

http://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/Reports.shtml

Since the data is in a pdf file one would have to search reasons for abortion to get the data from that site.

Of course these are all for America so while not Ireland or for the world in general it should give some idea on why abortions are done.

[danydandan]

23 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Had some time so I looked it up and the numbers are all over the place and depends on which study you decide to go with.

First there is Guttmacher institute, basically the research arm of planned parenthood.  They have that 12% of abortions are for concerns over the mother's health, but there is a rather large caveat with that number.  Apparently mother's health does not necessarily equal to life threatening as the health concerns they list range from cancer to morning sickness.

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2005/reasons-us-women-have-abortions-quantitative-and-qualitative-perspectives

Finding good abortion statistics for the nation, let alone globally, is rather difficult but it is a bit easier to do it by state for some states in America.  While this is only 1 state, Florida actually keeps track of the reason for an abortion.  For an abortion that is performed cause birth would be life threatening to the mother Florida had 47 out of 72,023 abortions in 2015, or about 0.067%.  If you factor in all health reasons, physical and mental, then it would only reach 0.67%.

http://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/Reports.shtml

Since the data is in a pdf file one would have to search reasons for abortion to get the data from that site.

Of course these are all for America so while not Ireland or for the world in general it should give some idea on why abortions are done.

I would think then results would be mirrored in most places.

[Ozymandias]

On 27/05/2018 at 6:08 PM, Black Monk said:

We all know you didn't really know what you were voting for. And as the referendum result didn't go the way many people wanted it to, it should be re-run or, simply, ignore it.

The Irish referendum is a model of how to prepare and conduct a referendum. We had a Citizens' Assembly that debated the abortion issue publicly for over a year before making recommendations to the government. A Select Committee pubicly grappled with these recommendations before proposing a referendum on amending our Constitution. We followed that with a well-informed national debate in which the pros and cons were honestly, thoroughly and fairly debated. There is quite simply no comparison between that and the Brexit debacle.

Quote

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/irelands-referendum-shows-that-some-people-only-like-democracy-when-it-gives-them-what-they-want/

 

The idiot who wrote the Spectator article is comparing apples and oranges and is clearly motivated by an agenda. His lack of objectivity and understanding of that reality is obvious.

[danydandan]

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The Irish referendum is a model of how to prepare and conduct a referendum. We had a Citizens' Assembly that debated the abortion issue publicly for over a year before making recommendations to the government. A Select Committee pubicly grappled with these recommendations before proposing a referendum on amending our Constitution. We followed that with a well-informed national debate in which the pros and cons were honestly, thoroughly and fairly debated. There is quite simply no comparison between that and the Brexit debacle.

The idiot who wrote the Spectator article is comparing apples and oranges and is clearly motivated by an agenda. His lack of objectivity and understanding of that reality is obvious.

Yeap it's exactly how a referendum should be conducted, and I would nearly guarantee that every single person knew what they were voting for.

[Piney]

22 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

I have Irish and English ancestors so Irish independence is always a strange one for me.

Me too. 

It's ironic that citizens of the 6 Nations a self governing body in Canada with our own passports consider ourselves citizens of the Commonwealth. My mother was born in Britain but had a joint American citizenship. Before 911 I had a joint Canadian and American citizenship. The Commonwealth forming it's own version of the EU would be a great idea. 

[danydandan]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

Me too. 

It's ironic that citizens of the 6 Nations a self governing body in Canada with our own passports consider ourselves citizens of the Commonwealth. My mother was born in Britain but had a joint American citizenship. Before 911 I had a joint Canadian and American citizenship. The Commonwealth forming it's own version of the EU would be a great idea. 

I don't know if it's still the case, but if the Queen is still the head of the Commonwealth then no Irish man or woman would agree to join it

[Piney]

21 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I don't know if it's still the case, but if the Queen is still the head of the Commonwealth then no Irish man or woman would agree to join it

Hey, My mom's side is from the North. When did we every follow anyone in the Monarchy?    

[Duke Wellington]

30 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I don't know if it's still the case, but if the Queen is still the head of the Commonwealth then no Irish man or woman would agree to join it

The EU didnt impose the British Monarch on the other member states.

Ireland and the USA could be tempted into a similar construct.

[danydandan]

18 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

The EU didnt impose the British Monarch on the other member states.

Ireland and the USA could be tempted into a similar construct.

I think Ireland and the US have an unwritten agreement, from the time Kennedy was in power to be honest. In his speech here he suggested he would take Ireland back with him.

I'm not saying the EU did, I'm simply saying that Ireland would not enter an agreement where the head of the federation was an English or any monarch. If the Queen is still seen as the head of the Commonwealth then Ireland would never join. The federation or union or whatever you want to call it would need to be like the EU with power sharing.

According to Wikipedia, the Queen is seen as the head of the Commonwealth, " The Head of the Commonwealth, currently Queen Elizabeth II, is recognised by the members of the Commonwealth of Nations as the "symbol of their free association" and serves as a leader, alongside the Commonwealth Secretary-General and Commonwealth Chair-in-Office." With that in mind Ireland would never accept a monarch as head of anything we agree to be apart of. So that would need to change if we were to agree to be apart of it.

Edited May 29, 2018 by danydandan

[Duke Wellington]

26 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I think Ireland and the US have an unwritten agreement, from the time Kennedy was in power to be honest. In his speech here he suggested he would take Ireland back with him.

I'm not saying the EU did, I'm simply saying that Ireland would not enter an agreement where the head of the federation was an English or any monarch. If the Queen is still seen as the head of the Commonwealth then Ireland would never join. The federation or union or whatever you want to call it would need to be like the EU with power sharing.

According to Wikipedia, the Queen is seen as the head of the Commonwealth, " The Head of the Commonwealth, currently Queen Elizabeth II, is recognised by the members of the Commonwealth of Nations as the "symbol of their free association" and serves as a leader, alongside the Commonwealth Secretary-General and Commonwealth Chair-in-Office." With that in mind Ireland would never accept a monarch as head of anything we agree to be apart of. So that would need to change if we were to agree to be apart of it.

How about an elected head?

[danydandan]

4 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

How about an elected head?

That would depend on the voting system, if each country had one vote then maybe, but if a voting system is based on population then it would be a no. I suppose a rotational leadership system where each Country would hold leadership for a number of years in turn would be ok.