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ColinT

There is no such 'thing' as energy.

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ColinT

"There is no such thing as matter. Everything is energy." Statements such as this are found in most modern physics textbooks; but is energy a 'thing'?

The material objects around us are manifest realities that have mass; but what do we mean by 'mass'? In general, it means that all objects near the Earth's surface possess weight, and also that they possess inertia. Mass is commonly defined as 'the amount of matter in a body', more accurately as 'the property of matter that measures its resistance to acceleration'. We can say that 'mass' is the quantification of matter that finds manifestation in weight and inertia. Both of these are observables: they can be detected, sensed, and measured; that is, quantified. They are qualities or properties of material objects that can be given a value on a scale of measurement.

Similar statements are true of motion. Generally speaking, all objects around us are either stationary or in motion relative to us, as determined by observation. Motion is also a manifest reality that can be quantified. If we know the mass and motion of an object, we can make statements and deductions about it. A tennis ball rolling along level ground will slow down and stop, whereas on a slope it will continue to move. In either case, appropriate measurements allow us to calculate the ball's motion to any desired degree of accuracy using well-established mathematical statements, and to calculate much else besides: velocity, acceleration, force of impact and so on. These properties can be called parameters of the object from the Greek para meaning beside and metron meaning measure.

Thus matter demonstrates mass, whilst radiation demonstrates motion; yet matter can also move, and radiation has an effective mass: both are fundamental components of Physical Reality.

A most useful parameter of a material object is its momentum: the product of mass and velocity: p = mv. Although derived from mass and motion, momentum is not an observable, but a concept: a calculated parameter. Neither is it a manifest reality as are mass and motion. If an object's momentum changes, it is NOT the case that momentum has been added to or subtracted from it: rather has its mass or its motion changed, and the calculated value of its momentum changes accordingly.

A similar parameter is kinetic energy. This, too, is a concept: a mathematical term naming the product of mass and the square of velocity: E = 1/2mv^2. What applies to momentum applies equally to kinetic energy, and to energy in general. It is a calculated quantity, neither an observable, nor a manifest reality. Energy cannot be added to or taken from an object; rather does it change in accord with mass, motion, position and composition. All calculation of energy requires the inclusion of a value for mass. If mass is unknown, energy cannot be calculated.

Recall now the first statement of this post, "There is no such thing as matter. Everything is energy." To claim that matter and radiation are both energy is to replace manifest realities with a mathematical parameter, and this surely is absurd.

It is true that all substance - sc. matter - is ultimately vibration, a contained, stationary resonance rather than the propagating vibrations of radiation; but vibration is not energy, even though it can be assigned an energetic value. In the case of electromagnetism, Planck's constant substitutes for the mechanical aspects of mass and motion: E = hf.

In spite of the foregoing, energy has proved to be one of the most valuable concepts in modern science, which is undoubtedly why it has been reified: that is, turned into a 'thing'. For more than a century, scientists have treated it as an actual physical reality instead of as a useful concept. What is needed is a new conceptual understanding of mass and motion, rather than the claim that both are composed of concepts.

For more see: http://vitency.com/npt/Ch03.html

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ChrLzs
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ColinT said:

"There is no such thing as matter. Everything is energy." Statements such as this are found in most modern physics textbooks...

Really?  And the context doesn't clarify it?  Would you mind quoting your favorite example, rather than just handwaving the claim?

I think you have developed a straw man and are not using the correct physics definition of matter... I didn't read the rest of it all that carefully, but this next bit jumped out - the following is simply wrong imo, plus the two parts of the sentence somewhat contradict each other:

2 hours ago, ColinT said:

Energy cannot be added to or taken from an object; rather does it change in accord with mass, motion, position and composition.

OK, let's do a little thought experiment.  In a given frame of reference (my backyard), I have a woodfire burning brightly.  I sit in front of it with my feet up, while wearing sneakers.  The sneakers get warm - if I'm close enough, hot.  Too close, they will catch fire....

Anyway, from the point of view of those sneakers, which are stationary and getting hot...  Your claim is that energy isn't added, but that my sneaker's mass/motion/position/composition has changed..??  Do please elaborate on that, because I don't see that any of those have changed, unless you are saying that some rubber compounds that now have slightly more excited electrons have 'changed composition'.

Edited by ChrLzs
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seanjo

Energy is the capacity to do work...That means if a photon/Atom/Person/Car moves from A to B it has done work using energy...simplistically speaking.

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Dejarma
2 hours ago, ColinT said:

"There is no such thing as matter. Everything is energy." Statements such as this are found in most modern physics textbooks; but is energy a 'thing'?

the top minds of today could be wrong.. but you haven't put forward anything to challenge modern physics.

is energy a 'thing'? who cares! all i know is i've got a crap day tomorrow- at the moment that's all i care about;)

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jmccr8

It must be a thing because it is something that I have to pay for every month or I am being conned by a real pro illusionist.

jmccr8

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Guyver

If you take a fork and stick it in a light socket, you'll soon agree that energy is a real thing.  As far as mass/energy equivalence goes....yes....it's a real thing from a theoretical standpoint.....but is it observed in nature?  I mean, can we change energy to mass?  I think the answer is no, but I'm not expert.  

Anyway, interesting OP and welcome to the forum.  

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Scudbuster
Posted (edited)

Electrons moving from an overabundance to an area of under-abundance are definitely an energy source.....that little desire of nature to achieve "balance". 

Edited by Scudbuster

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StarMountainKid

I would agree the there is no such 'thing' as energy. Energy always manifests as matter in motion. 

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qxcontinuum
Posted (edited)

Oh boy I don't even want to go into advanced chemistry and quantic about conversion of energy into matter and viceversa?

 

Edited by qxcontinuum

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Tatetopa

I never had a physics textbook that told me there was no such thing as matter.  The way I learned it, energy and matter are interchangeable.  You think matter is real because you think you can touch it.  For all you know you are juggling a twisted up little ball of energy.  

 If you take two hydrogen atoms and shove them together and add a couple of neutrons, (simplified version)  you get a helium atom.  The sun does it all the time.  The helium atom atom weighs less than the constituents.  That's fusion.  . The missing mass is converted into energy.  That little sliver of mass converted into energy fuels the sun.    If you take a helium atom and pump enough energy into it to separate it again into hydrogen and neutrons, the mass reappears.  Some of the energy required to separate the nucleus is converted back into mass. Strange it may seem to us, but maybe not absurd.  Action at a distance seemed absurd before electromagnetism and gravitation were better understood, and maybe now quantum entanglement.

Why do you say that vibration is not energy?  Is it not matter and motion?  

Besides matter in motion, energy manifests as electromagnetic radiation;  light and magnetism.

String theory would tell us that elementary particles that make up mass are simply vibrations on a conceived tiny "string".

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Susanc241

I see this as an argument over semantics.  What word would you use in place of 'thing'?  Seems a good enough word to me, in the circumstances.

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danydandan
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, ColinT said:

"There is no such thing as matter. Everything is energy." Statements such as this are found in most modern physics textbooks; but is energy a 'thing'?

The material objects around us are manifest realities that have mass; but what do we mean by 'mass'? In general, it means that all objects near the Earth's surface possess weight, and also that they possess inertia. Mass is commonly defined as 'the amount of matter in a body', more accurately as 'the property of matter that measures its resistance to acceleration'. We can say that 'mass' is the quantification of matter that finds manifestation in weight and inertia. Both of these are observables: they can be detected, sensed, and measured; that is, quantified. They are qualities or properties of material objects that can be given a value on a scale of measurement.

Similar statements are true of motion. Generally speaking, all objects around us are either stationary or in motion relative to us, as determined by observation. Motion is also a manifest reality that can be quantified. If we know the mass and motion of an object, we can make statements and deductions about it. A tennis ball rolling along level ground will slow down and stop, whereas on a slope it will continue to move. In either case, appropriate measurements allow us to calculate the ball's motion to any desired degree of accuracy using well-established mathematical statements, and to calculate much else besides: velocity, acceleration, force of impact and so on. These properties can be called parameters of the object from the Greek para meaning beside and metron meaning measure.

Thus matter demonstrates mass, whilst radiation demonstrates motion; yet matter can also move, and radiation has an effective mass: both are fundamental components of Physical Reality.

A most useful parameter of a material object is its momentum: the product of mass and velocity: p = mv. Although derived from mass and motion, momentum is not an observable, but a concept: a calculated parameter. Neither is it a manifest reality as are mass and motion. If an object's momentum changes, it is NOT the case that momentum has been added to or subtracted from it: rather has its mass or its motion changed, and the calculated value of its momentum changes accordingly.

A similar parameter is kinetic energy. This, too, is a concept: a mathematical term naming the product of mass and the square of velocity: E = 1/2mv^2. What applies to momentum applies equally to kinetic energy, and to energy in general. It is a calculated quantity, neither an observable, nor a manifest reality. Energy cannot be added to or taken from an object; rather does it change in accord with mass, motion, position and composition. All calculation of energy requires the inclusion of a value for mass. If mass is unknown, energy cannot be calculated.

Recall now the first statement of this post, "There is no such thing as matter. Everything is energy." To claim that matter and radiation are both energy is to replace manifest realities with a mathematical parameter, and this surely is absurd.

It is true that all substance - sc. matter - is ultimately vibration, a contained, stationary resonance rather than the propagating vibrations of radiation; but vibration is not energy, even though it can be assigned an energetic value. In the case of electromagnetism, Planck's constant substitutes for the mechanical aspects of mass and motion: E = hf.

In spite of the foregoing, energy has proved to be one of the most valuable concepts in modern science, which is undoubtedly why it has been reified: that is, turned into a 'thing'. For more than a century, scientists have treated it as an actual physical reality instead of as a useful concept. What is needed is a new conceptual understanding of mass and motion, rather than the claim that both are composed of concepts.

For more see: http://vitency.com/npt/Ch03.html

Without going into why this is wrong, can I ask you to read up on the standard model, I have written an attempted article regarding it.

But in regards to energy and matter not being a thing, your incorrect. I feel you need to read up on force carriers. It will show why your post is incorrect.

Edited by danydandan
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ColinT

Summary response after one week.

All physical objects are comprised of atoms. Atoms, individually or in aggregate, are called matter. All matter is visible and revealed to us by light. Some objects are so small as to be invisible to the naked eye, but microscopes can reveal them. Even individual atoms can be seen via light:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161094-a-single-atom-is-visible-to-the-naked-eye-in-this-stunning-photo/

Some objects are so distant as to be equally invisible without instrumental assistance, but in theory could be seen using a sufficiently powerful telescope. There may be a finite limit to this, perhaps the Hubble limit.

All motion is visible and revealed to us by light. It requires two or more observations separated by intervals of time. Some motion is so rapid as to be indiscernible, but is also amenable to instrumental detection, as in the case of strobe lighting. Some is so slow as to require extended periods of observation.

Thus matter and motion are the two fundamental observables of Physical Reality. Light is invisible: we cannot see light, only those objects which emit or reflect it. Matter, motion and light - more generally radiation - existing within space and time comprise Physical Reality.

Energy, momentum, power and so forth are invisible. They always have been and will be because they are not observables: not physically real. They are concepts within the minds of Men, useful in describing and explaining the manifest phenomena of the Physical Realm, but not a part of it.

Those who insist that such concepts are 'things' - manifest realities - are incapable of differentiating between physical reality and imagination, and so live in delusions of their own creating. This insistence is modern mysticism, part of the religion of Scientism that Modern Western Science has become.

The greater the delusion, the greater the anger, arrogance, conceit and conviction of the deluded, as plainly evidenced by many replies on other forums.

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danydandan
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, ColinT said:

Summary response after one week.

All physical objects are comprised of atoms. Atoms, individually or in aggregate, are called matter. All matter is visible and revealed to us by light. Some objects are so small as to be invisible to the naked eye, but microscopes can reveal them. Even individual atoms can be seen via light:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161094-a-single-atom-is-visible-to-the-naked-eye-in-this-stunning-photo/

Some objects are so distant as to be equally invisible without instrumental assistance, but in theory could be seen using a sufficiently powerful telescope. There may be a finite limit to this, perhaps the Hubble limit.

All motion is visible and revealed to us by light. It requires two or more observations separated by intervals of time. Some motion is so rapid as to be indiscernible, but is also amenable to instrumental detection, as in the case of strobe lighting. Some is so slow as to require extended periods of observation.

Thus matter and motion are the two fundamental observables of Physical Reality. Light is invisible: we cannot see light, only those objects which emit or reflect it. Matter, motion and light - more generally radiation - existing within space and time comprise Physical Reality.

Energy, momentum, power and so forth are invisible. They always have been and will be because they are not observables: not physically real. They are concepts within the minds of Men, useful in describing and explaining the manifest phenomena of the Physical Realm, but not a part of it.

Those who insist that such concepts are 'things' - manifest realities - are incapable of differentiating between physical reality and imagination, and so live in delusions of their own creating. This insistence is modern mysticism, part of the religion of Scientism that Modern Western Science has become.

The greater the delusion, the greater the anger, arrogance, conceit and conviction of the deluded, as plainly evidenced by many replies on other forums.

All I'll say is you can't see energy, as in you can't see kenetic, potential or elastic energy as a tangible objects. It's a method of describing an objects momentum or potential momentum. So you are correct in assuming that energy isn't a directly observable phenomenon but it's indirectly observed. And light is visible, we can see photons.

Also I'm not sure where you got your quote there is no such thing as matter, that's rediculous.

Edited by danydandan
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ChrLzs
14 hours ago, ColinT said:

Summary response...

{statements of the blindingly obvious snipped}

Thus matter and motion are the two fundamental observables of Physical Reality.

Here you just seem to be defining Physical Reality in a non standard way.  Pointless.

14 hours ago, ColinT said:

Light is invisible: we cannot see light, only those objects which emit or reflect it.

Semantics.  When you shine a torch in your eye, the eye's rod and cones are hit by the photons, so yes, they 'hit' an object, but in that case the rods and cones ABSORB it, they do not emit or reflect that which is seen.  So in that case what they hit is the actual receiver, so yes, we DO see light for all sensible use of the terms.

 

14 hours ago, ColinT said:

Matter, motion and light - more generally radiation - existing within space and time comprise Physical Reality.

So, you are now including radiation (most of which is invisible) in your (useless) definition of 'Physical Reality', and then...

14 hours ago, ColinT said:

Energy, momentum, power and so forth are invisible. They always have been and will be because they are not observables: not physically real. They are concepts within the minds of Men, useful in describing and explaining the manifest phenomena of the Physical Realm, but not a part of it.

So now they are NOT part of it...?  Way to contradict yourself.  This stuff is gibberish.  Goodbye.

 

 

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Doug1o29

E = mc2

Doug

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Hammerclaw

No such thing as energy? Go stick a fork in an electrical outlet and come back and tell us that--if you survive the non existent shock.

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Scudbuster
51 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No such thing as energy? Go stick a fork in an electrical outlet and come back and tell us that--if you survive the non existent shock.

Or walk out on a golf curse in the middle of an electrical storm - your charred remains won't be due to a gust of wind (but I suppose that would be a form of energy too) :lol:

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Perfection
On 30/05/2018 at 5:58 AM, ColinT said:

but is energy a 'thing'?

well this is the spirituality vs skepticism section so i'll add my 2 cents to this science question by recalling the things that the spiritual beings taught me about their science.

Firstly they taught that the universe including the material earth is just a wavelength like a radio wave & by adjusting the wavelength you effectively tune out the universe you see here & enter the next universe.

They showed me this countless times & they also showed me how they made magnetic type round gateways that when a material object passes through the gate its wavelength is altered instantly & it enters the parallel universe. They made me go through the gateway to experience what it is like & i observed how my size changed as i entered the next universe.

It's like when you speed up a wavelength then the material objects that are part of that wavelength increase in size & vice versa.

The beings showing me this also made me merge into a solid concrete floor to teach me how wavelengths can be a dangerous thing to mess around with. It took me an hour of struggle to remove my body from the concrete.

It really is like the universe has a spectrum of wavelengths similar to the way a rainbow is made, & the earth & everything we know is all just on one wavelength & we do not have the science or the instruments to measure the other wavelengths around us where the spiritual people & parallel worlds are.

Quite literally when you learn that science then you overcome all time & space completely. You can go to the furthest reaches of the universe instantly once you master that science. The spiritual beings have elements that do it all for them. There is little work involved for them. It all seemed so very simple while they were teaching me but when I look at our earth's scientists I can see we are a long way from catching up to that higher or more advanced science. 

The spiritual beings with their science can effectively stop time or go into the future or the past. They can manipulate all worldly events that way by moving at the speed of light around us while simply walking at a normal pace. That is how god or the spiritual side is able to do mysterious works & make incredible coincidences happen which are simply not possible in a random chaotic creation.

 

So to your question asking "Is Energy A Thing" the answer from my point of view is that yes it is a thing when you tune into it & focus on it, & then it more or less vanishes when you tune out from it. You can tune out from the earth & enter a parallel earth that way. 

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danydandan
10 minutes ago, Perfection said:

well this is the spirituality vs skepticism section so i'll add my 2 cents to this science question by recalling the things that the spiritual beings taught me about their science.

Firstly they taught that the universe including the material earth is just a wavelength like a radio wave & by adjusting the wavelength you effectively tune out the universe you see here & enter the next universe.

They showed me this countless times & they also showed me how they made magnetic type round gateways that when a material object passes through the gate its wavelength is altered instantly & it enters the parallel universe. They made me go through the gateway to experience what it is like & i observed how my size changed as i entered the next universe.

It's like when you speed up a wavelength then the material objects that are part of that wavelength increase in size & vice versa.

The beings showing me this also made me merge into a solid concrete floor to teach me how wavelengths can be a dangerous thing to mess around with. It took me an hour of struggle to remove my body from the concrete.

It really is like the universe has a spectrum of wavelengths similar to the way a rainbow is made, & the earth & everything we know is all just on one wavelength & we do not have the science or the instruments to measure the other wavelengths around us where the spiritual people & parallel worlds are.

Quite literally when you learn that science then you overcome all time & space completely. You can go to the furthest reaches of the universe instantly once you master that science. The spiritual beings have elements that do it all for them. There is little work involved for them. It all seemed so very simple while they were teaching me but when I look at our earth's scientists I can see we are a long way from catching up to that higher or more advanced science. 

The spiritual beings with their science can effectively stop time or go into the future or the past. They can manipulate all worldly events that way by moving at the speed of light around us while simply walking at a normal pace. That is how god or the spiritual side is able to do mysterious works & make incredible coincidences happen which are simply not possible in a random chaotic creation.

 

So to your question asking "Is Energy A Thing" the answer from my point of view is that yes it is a thing when you tune into it & focus on it, & then it more or less vanishes when you tune out from it. You can tune out from the earth & enter a parallel earth that way. 

Would you mind asking these beings to show us how to do this?

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ChrLzs
On 8/22/2018 at 4:16 AM, Perfection said:

Firstly they taught that the universe including the material earth is just a wavelength like a radio wave & by adjusting the wavelength you effectively tune out the universe you see here & enter the next universe.

They showed me this countless times..

In which case you should be able to remember what those wavelengths are.  Please pass on your learning.  If not, WHY not?

On 8/22/2018 at 4:16 AM, Perfection said:

The beings showing me this also made me merge into a solid concrete floor to teach me how wavelengths can be a dangerous thing to mess around with. It took me an hour of struggle to remove my body from the concrete.

Nope, not buying it.

On 8/22/2018 at 4:16 AM, Perfection said:

It really is like the universe has a spectrum of wavelengths similar to the way a rainbow is made, & the earth & everything we know is all just on one wavelength & we do not have the science or the instruments to measure the other wavelengths around us where the spiritual people & parallel worlds are.

A wavelength is a wavelength... so just tell us what wavelengths these are.  If it is somehow different, do elaborate.

On 8/22/2018 at 4:16 AM, Perfection said:

Quite literally when you learn that science then you overcome all time & space completely. You can go to the furthest reaches of the universe instantly once you master that science. The spiritual beings have elements that do it all for them. There is little work involved for them. It all seemed so very simple while they were teaching me but when I look at our earth's scientists I can see we are a long way from catching up to that higher or more advanced science.

Well .. again.. pass it on.  Again, if not, why not?   Did they decide we weren't ready, but that you were so special that you had to be told?  If so, why didn't they ask you to keep it quiet, rather than tease us in exactly the same way as do those who just make stuff up..?

 

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Emma_Acid
On 21/08/2018 at 7:16 PM, Perfection said:

well this is the spirituality vs skepticism section so i'll add my 2 cents to this science question by recalling the things that the spiritual beings taught me about their science.

Firstly they taught that the universe including the material earth is just a wavelength like a radio wave & by adjusting the wavelength you effectively tune out the universe you see here & enter the next universe.

They showed me this countless times & they also showed me how they made magnetic type round gateways that when a material object passes through the gate its wavelength is altered instantly & it enters the parallel universe. They made me go through the gateway to experience what it is like & i observed how my size changed as i entered the next universe.

It's like when you speed up a wavelength then the material objects that are part of that wavelength increase in size & vice versa.

The beings showing me this also made me merge into a solid concrete floor to teach me how wavelengths can be a dangerous thing to mess around with. It took me an hour of struggle to remove my body from the concrete.

giphy.gif

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Border Collie

I don't have any energy at the moment. So it might be true?

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pallidin

For those interested, one might look at "perturbation field-theory" as an explanation of the existence for what we call "matter"

 

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pallidin

In short, PFT recognizes a highly complex, powerful underlying set of forces which permeates all of reality.

Those underlying forces are still poorly understood, but, it is suggested that the "Higgs field" is a  key dynamic component. 

Selective disturbances (not understood) but referred to as "pertubation" in the field causes spontaneous creation of what we call "particles"... some disturbances are great enough to make the particle permanent... other disturbances of lower value create what are known as "virtual particles"

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