Is the EU sacrificing democracy?

[danydandan]

Allister Heath has written a very interesting article, debating weather or not the EU is ready to sacrifice democracy to keep the union in power.

A few examples of the EU ignoring democracy, is it's attempt to thwart any meaningful negotiations relating to Brexit. The support of a Madrid based government and recently the reelection prompted in Italy due to a European skeptical financial minister.

Is it worth sacrificing free speech, sovereignty and even democracy to ensure disunity doesn't occur?

Is it really the answer to abolish all nation states and subsume them into an unaccountable, technocratic empire? Or is it better to create alliances that ensure the world can deal promptly with countries that go rogue, while embracing international economic policies that make extremist lurches less likely?

It appears that the EU portrays itself as the only true supporter of bourgeois values and capitalism. The message to the middle classes is simple: if you value your assets, support the status quo.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/europe/eu-ready-to-sacrifice-democracy-to-rescue-its-hunger-for-power-36963827.html

So do we live in a autocratic union, are we abandoning democracy for peace?

[RoofGardener]

8 minutes ago, danydandan said:

So do we live in a autocratic union, are we abandoning democracy for peace?....

What do you mean "We", paleface ?  (I'm from Britain, and we're leaving  ) 

[danydandan]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

What do you mean "We", paleface ?  (I'm from Britain, and we're leaving  ) 

Still in as of now so your still "we".

 

[+OverSword]

Abandoning democracy?  How much of a democracy is the EU to begin with?  Besides, who in their right mind would want to live in a democracy?  Democratic republics are obviously the way to go

[L.A.T.1961]

34 minutes ago, danydandan said:

Is it worth sacrificing free speech, sovereignty and even democracy to ensure disunity doesn't occur?

So do we live in a autocratic union, are we abandoning democracy for peace?

Interesting article, if the EU was in a position to guarantee against disunity then there might be an argument to infringe upon some democratic principles to maintain order.

Unfortunately Brussels shows little ability to be able to manage unexpected events. The migration situation is one example.

So the lack of democracy we see in Brussels is a cost that brings no benefit to members states.       

[keithisco]

There is a huge Democratic Deficit in the way that the EU comports itself, ably aided and abetted by some of its members (different members at different times). In my belief system there should always be National Referenda when a Treaty is to be signed because they impact on Constitutions. No referendum was held in the UK when Maastricht was signed which brought into being the EU, and no Referendum was held in the UK when the Lisbon Treaty was signed.

I would also add that the EU President (J.C.Juncker) elevated his friend Martin Selmayr to the role of Secretary-General in direct contradiction to the established process. Unfortunately no-one can now remove him because he answers to nobody-it would take impeachment at EU Council level to overturn the appointment.

I do not accept the precept that the EU maintains the peace between EU States, that has been, and still is the role that NATO plays - to the contrary, I believe that the EU's current expansionism into the Russian Sphere of Influence is one that is extremely dangerous and could exacerbate war.

Overall, and this will come as no surprise, I believe the EU has become authoritarian, extremely left-wing, and acts against the interests of its "subjects", assisted by the Globalist agenda that permeates almost all EU member Governments 

[Helen of Annoy]

So I started reading the article on the link, but didn't finish it. Probably because as I kept reading, I kept disagreeing with the author, while finding no reason to change my mind.

 

Together with every other citizen of my country, I elect candidates that will represent us in our Sabor (Parliament). So we elect our representatives in the EU Parliament too.

True, we don't directly elect members of every of countless EU commissions, but we don't directly elect every single government official in our state either.

We do elect people who will make certain decisions, but we do not directly make them. I never wrote a law or directly voted for or against it in Sabor, but the person I voted for did. 

So I don't understand why is EU somehow less democratic than what I have in my country.

I'm not saying it's perfect. It's very, very far from it, mostly because the worst people are drawn to politics, like flies to... ahem... so I have to vote for the lesser evil, instead of the better candidate/party, but that's not EU's fault, nor it first occurred only with the EU. 

 

Why would closer cooperation between countries that should naturally closely cooperate suddenly be a bad thing?

And that's what EU essentially is about. Cooperation. 

I understand why someone, who sees Europe as a competitor instead of a neighbour, would object to European cooperation, but why would any European be against more cooperation in the neighbourhood, is beyond me. 

 

Clearly, this is my opinion on the EU principles, not particular liked or disliked people in the top of EU bureaucracy. They come and they go, no one was made the king of EU.  

[keithisco]

I think it is interesting to note that even Nation States can be totally ignored with the adoption of Qualified Majority Voting in the following areas: Source: Wiki

 

Initiatives of the High Representative for Foreign Affairs	QMV following unanimous request	15b TEU
Rules concerning the Armaments Agency	QMV	28D§2 TEU
Freedom to establish a business	QMV	50 TFEU
Self-employment access rights	QMV	50 TFEU
Freedom, security and justice – cooperation and evaluation	QMV	70 TFEU
Border checks	QMV	77 TFEU
Asylum	QMV	78 TFEU
Immigration	QMV	79 TFEU
Crime prevention incentives	QMV	69c TFEU
Eurojust	QMV	69d TFEU
Police cooperation	QMV	69f TFEU
Europol	QMV	69g TFEU
Transport	QMV	71§2 TFEU
European Central Bank	QMV (in part)	129 TFEU, 283 TFEU
Culture	QMV	151 TFEU
Structural and Cohension Funds	QMV	161 TFEU
Organisation of the Council of the European Union	QMV	201b TFEU
European Court of Justice	QMV	245, 224a, 225a TFEU
Freedom of movement for workers	QMV	46 TFEU
Social security	QMV	48 TFEU
Criminal judicial cooperation	QMV	69a TFEU
Criminal law	QMV	69b TFEU
President of the European Council election	QMV	9b§5 TEU
Foreign Affairs High Representative election	QMV	9e§1 TEU
Funding the Common Foreign and Security Policy	QMV	28 TEU
Common defense policy	QMV	28e TEU
Withdrawal of a member state	QMV	49a TEU
General economic interest services	QMV	16 TFEU
Diplomatic and consular protection	QMV	20 TFEU
Citizens initiative regulations	QMV	21 TFEU
Intellectual property	QMV	97a TFEU
Eurozone external representation	QMV	115c TFEU
Sport	QMV	149 TFEU
Space	QMV	172a TFEU
Energy	QMV	176a TFEU
Tourism	QMV	176b TFEU
Civil protection	QMV	176c TFEU
Administrative cooperation	QMV	176d TFEU
Emergency international aid	QMV	188i TFEU
Humanitarian aid	QMV	188j TFEU
Response to natural disasters or terrorism	QMV	188R§3 TFEU
Economic and Social Committee	QMV	256a TFEU
Committee of the Regions	QMV	256a TFEU
Economic and Social Committee	QMV	256a TFEU
The EU budget	QMV	269 TFEU

Edited May 31, 2018 by keithisco

[Cookie Monster]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

Allister Heath has written a very interesting article, debating weather or not the EU is ready to sacrifice democracy to keep the union in power.

A few examples of the EU ignoring democracy, is it's attempt to thwart any meaningful negotiations relating to Brexit. The support of a Madrid based government and recently the reelection prompted in Italy due to a European skeptical financial minister.

Is it worth sacrificing free speech, sovereignty and even democracy to ensure disunity doesn't occur?

Is it really the answer to abolish all nation states and subsume them into an unaccountable, technocratic empire? Or is it better to create alliances that ensure the world can deal promptly with countries that go rogue, while embracing international economic policies that make extremist lurches less likely?

It appears that the EU portrays itself as the only true supporter of bourgeois values and capitalism. The message to the middle classes is simple: if you value your assets, support the status quo.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/europe/eu-ready-to-sacrifice-democracy-to-rescue-its-hunger-for-power-36963827.html

So do we live in a autocratic union, are we abandoning democracy for peace?

I want Britain to leave the EU, reclaim its superpower status, and then forge its own path forward.

I also suspect that if it wasn't for the banking crisis and unemployment problems at the time of the vote that nearer 60% would have voted to leave. But, even I have to admit if the free movement of people was stopped then those wanting to remain would have pinched victory when the vote was held. The EU doesnt get Britain. We are in the top tier of nations, we weren't torn up by WW2, and both of these combined mean we arent prepared to sacrifice our country.

The EU is not our dream, we only ever wanted the access to European markets. Britain wont be the last to leave, maybe after its lost two or three countries it will sort the free movement of people out. But of course, it would have lost us by then.

[Ozymandias]

4 hours ago, danydandan said:

Allister Heath has written a very interesting article, debating weather or not the EU is ready to sacrifice democracy to keep the union in power.

A few examples of the EU ignoring democracy, is it's attempt to thwart any meaningful negotiations relating to Brexit. The support of a Madrid based government and recently the reelection prompted in Italy due to a European skeptical financial minister.

Is it worth sacrificing free speech, sovereignty and even democracy to ensure disunity doesn't occur?

Is it really the answer to abolish all nation states and subsume them into an unaccountable, technocratic empire? Or is it better to create alliances that ensure the world can deal promptly with countries that go rogue, while embracing international economic policies that make extremist lurches less likely?

It appears that the EU portrays itself as the only true supporter of bourgeois values and capitalism. The message to the middle classes is simple: if you value your assets, support the status quo.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/europe/eu-ready-to-sacrifice-democracy-to-rescue-its-hunger-for-power-36963827.html

So do we live in a autocratic union, are we abandoning democracy for peace?

Jesus, Dan, do you normally take newspaper opinion pieces at face value without checking provenance  and context?

Allister Heath, editor of the Sunday Telegraph, is a dyed-in-the-wool right-wing Eurosceptic and this offering of his is straight out of the Barclay Telegraph stable. I'd give it short shrift.

 

[danydandan]

Nope, just thought it was interesting and possibly worth discussing.

[stevewinn]

when it comes to Democracy just look at the EU's actions six years ago during the economic crisis in Greece and Italy just look how those Governments were removed and EU apparatchiks installed, and no-one bat an eyelid. scary stuff and world leaders carried on like nothing had happened.

Greek PM George Papandreou's mistake was to propose to hold a referendum on the EU's aid package to bail out Greece, i remember it like it was yesterday, the dark forces of the EU moved on Papandreou and before you knew it he was gone, replaced by an unelected unity Govt. and who was the head of this new unity Govt. replaced by a former European Central Bank President. The same happened in Italy this time it was Mario Monti former EU commissioner, both Men in Italy and Greece where put in place to  implement reforms and austerity measures for the EU. Just look at how the youth of Europe in the Eurozone have been sacrificed at the alter of the EU in order to keep the political project on track, if they where willing to do that then the EU will go to any length. beit democracy or anything else.

 

[Helen of Annoy]

17 hours ago, stevewinn said:

when it comes to Democracy just look at the EU's actions six years ago during the economic crisis in Greece and Italy just look how those Governments were removed and EU apparatchiks installed, and no-one bat an eyelid. scary stuff and world leaders carried on like nothing had happened.

Greek PM George Papandreou's mistake was to propose to hold a referendum on the EU's aid package to bail out Greece, i remember it like it was yesterday, the dark forces of the EU moved on Papandreou and before you knew it he was gone, replaced by an unelected unity Govt. and who was the head of this new unity Govt. replaced by a former European Central Bank President. The same happened in Italy this time it was Mario Monti former EU commissioner, both Men in Italy and Greece where put in place to  implement reforms and austerity measures for the EU. Just look at how the youth of Europe in the Eurozone have been sacrificed at the alter of the EU in order to keep the political project on track, if they where willing to do that then the EU will go to any length. beit democracy or anything else.

 

You're on your way out of EU, which means you will be free to throw any amount of your money into Greece. Without any control over its spending and without batting an eyelid when it becomes obvious who and how is siphoning that money in private pockets. 

And was EU assistance with temporary government replacements permanent? No, it was temporary. 

Was democracy suspended? Or they had new elections? They had new elections. Etc.  

 

Sacrificed youth? I lost you there. Would you explain who's sacrificing whose youth and why doesn't your democratically elected anti-EU government do something to protect your youth? Only yours, of course.   

[stevewinn]

22 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You're on your way out of EU, which means you will be free to throw any amount of your money into Greece. Without any control over its spending and without batting an eyelid when it becomes obvious who and how is siphoning that money in private pockets. 

And was EU assistance with temporary government replacements permanent? No, it was temporary. 

Was democracy suspended? Or they had new elections? They had new elections. Etc.  

 

Sacrificed youth? I lost you there. Would you explain who's sacrificing whose youth and why doesn't your democratically elected anti-EU government do something to protect your youth? Only yours, of course.   

What i take away from your post - It was okay for a foreign political entity (EU) to assist in the removal of democratically elected leaders in sovereign countries and install their 'men' to then lead unelected 'unity' Government's. but that's okay, it was only "temporary" Can you not see the consequences of this?

This gave rise to unelected EU apparatchiks being installed, and answerable not to the people of those countries, (because no-one elected them) safe from being answerable to the people they forced through EU policy, austerity policies which brought economic and social misery to millions. The danger of this action is disconnect, democratic deficit. just look, just look for one minute at the troubles today thanks to the actions of the EU, both countries have elected anti-EU governments as a consequence, because it was the EU who imposed the misery and not their elected politicians the people are rebelling against the EU. Just look at Italy the same dark forces are at play again, the majority in the Italian parliment are anti-EU parties and yet the proposed leader was neither a chosen leader of the anti-eu parties but they tried to shoe in a pro-EU apparatchik again. this caused the crisis we've all seen on the News. 

on the sacrificed youth. The EU was happy to impose measures which resulted in 50% youth unemployment in Greece and an average of 25% right across southern Europe. that is the legacy of the EU, a lost decade. you tell them it was for their own good and dont worry the legacy is only 'temporary'

 

[Helen of Annoy]

16 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

What i take away from your post - It was okay for a foreign political entity (EU) to assist in the removal of democratically elected leaders in sovereign countries and install their 'men' to then lead unelected 'unity' Government's. but that's okay, it was only "temporary" Can you not see the consequences of this?

Of course I do see the consequences: stopping the financial bleeding.

Besides, no one removed legal government, they ceased functioning on their own.

What would you do? Leave them in anarchy? Who would sign the receipt for all the funds they kept receiving?

Strange (not really) that you're so fond of uncontrolled and unrestricted spending of (according to you) mostly your own money.

16 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

This gave rise to unelected EU apparatchiks being installed, and answerable not to the people of those countries, (because no-one elected them) safe from being answerable to the people they forced through EU policy, austerity policies which brought economic and social misery to millions. The danger of this action is disconnect, democratic deficit. just look, just look for one minute at the troubles today thanks to the actions of the EU, both countries have elected anti-EU governments as a consequence, because it was the EU who imposed the misery and not their elected politicians the people are rebelling against the EU. Just look at Italy the same dark forces are at play again, the majority in the Italian parliment are anti-EU parties and yet the proposed leader was neither a chosen leader of the anti-eu parties but they tried to shoe in a pro-EU apparatchik again. this caused the crisis we've all seen on the News. 

I've got approximately the same amount of control over my own government as I do over EU: close to none. But my vote is just another average vote and all together, we do control what happens to us. But the people we choose are us, from our own countries, not from some idealist heaven, so of course they're rarely more than careerist thieves. All glory to the exceptions.  

The recent rise of autistic and extravagant political options is the result of general culture of superficiality we live in and the fact I've been repeating for years now: keep doing nothing, keep destroying the middle class and you'll have various quasi-nazis rising to power because they will offer easy solutions an average idiot wants to hear – it's someone else's fault.

But it's not. 

 

16 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

on the sacrificed youth. The EU was happy to impose measures which resulted in 50% youth unemployment in Greece and an average of 25% right across southern Europe. that is the legacy of the EU, a lost decade. you tell them it was for their own good and dont worry the legacy is only 'temporary'

 

Not true. Half of Croatia is working abroad. Not because of the EU. The EU would help us, but we can't reach that help because of our inner corruption and fatalism.

If some neo-idiot pulls us out of EU, we're dead. Because EU makes our economic migrations go easier and besides tourism, that's what we survive on.

 

[stevewinn]

5 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Of course I do see the consequences: stopping the financial bleeding.

Besides, no one removed legal government, they ceased functioning on their own.

What would you do? Leave them in anarchy? Who would sign the receipt for all the funds they kept receiving?

Strange (not really) that you're so fond of uncontrolled and unrestricted spending of (according to you) mostly your own money.

I've got approximately the same amount of control over my own government as I do over EU: close to none. But my vote is just another average vote and all together, we do control what happens to us. But the people we choose are us, from our own countries, not from some idealist heaven, so of course they're rarely more than careerist thieves. All glory to the exceptions.  

The recent rise of autistic and extravagant political options is the result of general culture of superficiality we live in and the fact I've been repeating for years now: keep doing nothing, keep destroying the middle class and you'll have various quasi-nazis rising to power because they will offer easy solutions an average idiot wants to hear – it's someone else's fault.

But it's not. 

 

Not true. Half of Croatia is working abroad. Not because of the EU. The EU would help us, but we can't reach that help because of our inner corruption and fatalism.

If some neo-idiot pulls us out of EU, we're dead. Because EU makes our economic migrations go easier and besides tourism, that's what we survive on.

 

head in the sand.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 minute ago, stevewinn said:

head in the sand.

Yes, yours. That's why I'm kicking you in the behind, but it only pushes it deeper.  

[Finity]

The way they ignored what was going on in Catalonia did it for me. Spanish authorities beating up voters in the street and the EU did nothing, because what Catalonia was doing wasn't in line with their agenda (i.e. independence from Spain and therefore the EU).

The EU is an empire in all but name really. Instead of it's leaders pillaging to make their money, it has corporations lobbying (bribing) them in exchange for pushing through laws they want. A lot like in the US.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Finity

[Helen of Annoy]

37 minutes ago, Finity said:

The way they ignored what was going on in Catalonia did it for me. Spanish authorities beating up voters in the street and the EU did nothing, because what Catalonia was doing wasn't in line with their agenda (i.e. independence from Spain and therefore the EU).

The EU is an empire in all but name really. Instead of the fatcats pillaging to make their money, it has corporations lobbying (bribing) members to make laws which they want.

Obviously, EU is not an empire, since an empire would intervene in Catalunya.

While their desire for independence is not hard for me to understand, it was one of the worst moments possible to go for it. Because of Brexit, among other complications that are happening lately. Standing on Catalunya's side by saying that yes, they can rejoin as an independent state, would be seen as EU encouraging independence from UK too. Even worse with telling Spain seriously to calm the **** down – it would be the proof of loss of sovereignty within the EU, which various Euro-phobes are dreaming of.

I wouldn't really think about it this way if it wasn't Spain and UK that did everything politically possible to hinder my country's independence and joining EU, simply because we successfully broke out of a country that truly wasn't a kingdom anymore, but it was a state consisting of few historically and nationally separate entities. 

[preacherman76]

The EU is already threatening Italy for voting populous. Tyrants.

[stevewinn]

12 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

The EU is already threatening Italy for voting populous. Tyrants.

and all the while this goes on people turn a blind eye, showing loyalty to the EU who is nothing more than a political grouping.

[preacherman76]

39 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

and all the while this goes on people turn a blind eye, showing loyalty to the EU who is nothing more than a political grouping.

It’s amazing. I can’t believ the loyalty. People actually want to be ruled by those who can’t be held accountable to its citizens. 

I remember reading the list of laws the EU put on the UK just for making pillows. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Of course I couldn’t read all of it, lol it just went on and on. 

Turning this into a bipartisan issue was the only way they’d get anyone to support it. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by preacherman76

[Helen of Annoy]

18 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

The EU is already threatening Italy for voting populous. Tyrants.

Actually, it's the populists in Italy that have problems with assembling the government. It's almost like they didn't think this through. 

 

5 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

It’s amazing. I can’t believ the loyalty. People actually want to be ruled by those who can’t be held accountable to its citizens. 

I remember reading the list of laws the EU put on the UK just for making pillows. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Of course I couldn’t read all of it, lol it just went on and on. 

Turning this into a bipartisan issue was the only way they’d get anyone to support it. 

Once again: the level of control an average citizen has over the EU is the same as the level such citizen has over their country's government. 

You vote in your country elections, you vote in the EU elections. The principle is the same. 

 

Regulations indeed can be funny, but it's not wise to wish for deregulated anything.

 

Lost you on bipartisan.    

[preacherman76]

6 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Actually, it's the populists in Italy that have problems with assembling the government. It's almost like they didn't think this through. 

 

Once again: the level of control an average citizen has over the EU is the same as the level such citizen has over their country's government. 

You vote in your country elections, you vote in the EU elections. The principle is the same. 

 

Regulations indeed can be funny, but it's not wise to wish for deregulated anything.

 

Lost you on bipartisan.    

So what? You are talking about a single person. Even if every person in a EU country demanded something, if it was against your over lords, it isn't going to happen. The will of the people can be done when you actually elect your leaders, and there is no authority above them.

I didn't lose anything.

[stevewinn]

12 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

So what? You are talking about a single person. Even if every person in a EU country demanded something, if it was against your over lords, it isn't going to happen. The will of the people can be done when you actually elect your leaders, and there is no authority above them.

I didn't lose anything.

 

Obviously the politics in Croatia is different to ours - if Helen thinks the two are the same, but then Croatian political system is full of corruption so is more in line with the EU.