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Is the EU sacrificing democracy?


danydandan

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5 minutes ago, AnchorSteam said:

Well well, that's interesting, if true.

I had assumed that the Royals had one actual function that could do their country some good; namely as a Fail-Safe that could kick in at the last moment to save the country from something really ugly, or force a change in the heads of the government. 

 

So, if not, they are basically good for nothing in the literal sense, eh?

 

Some light reading on the UK Modern Monarchy.

Quote

 

Monarchy is the oldest form of government in the United Kingdom.

In a monarchy, a king or queen is Head of State. The British Monarchy is known as a constitutional monarchy. This means that, while The Sovereign is Head of State, the ability to make and pass legislation resides with an elected Parliament.

Although The Sovereign no longer has a political or executive role, he or she continues to play an important part in the life of the nation.

As Head of State, The Monarch undertakes constitutional and representational duties which have developed over one thousand years of history. In addition to these State duties, The Monarch has a less formal role as 'Head of Nation'. The Sovereign acts as a focus for national identity, unity and pride; gives a sense of stability and continuity; officially recognises success and excellence; and supports the ideal of voluntary service.

 

Source:

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I believe the monarch has the constitutional power to dissolve Parliament ? 

It must be VERY tempting for her sometimes, especially after a few Gin n' Tonics. If only to see the expression on Theresa May's face :D 

She also has the theoretical power to declare war, which might annoy Theresa May even more :P 

http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/insight/what-are-the-queens-powers-22069

 

Edited by RoofGardener
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1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

I believe the monarch has the constitutional power to dissolve Parliament ? 

It must be VERY tempting for her sometimes, especially after a few Gin n' Tonics. If only to see the expression on Theresa May's face :D 

She also has the theoretical power to declare war, which might annoy Theresa May even more :P 

http://royalcentral.co.uk/blogs/insight/what-are-the-queens-powers-22069

 

Since the passing into Law of the Fixed-Term Parliament Act (2011) The Queen no longer has the power to unilaterally dissolve Parliament because an Act of Parliament is required to shorten the Fixed-Term of 5 years.

In theory The Queen has the ability to Declare War (not exercised since James 2nd) but the communication of such is handled by "The Crown" (i.e. The Government) which can be overturned by a vote of No Confidence in the House of Commons. 

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EU democracy was always pretty thin.

It seems to be run for the benefit of big business, who lobby (bribe) officials to push through policies they want.

Edited by Finity
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15 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It was realistic to expect numerous little wannabe tough-guys will try emulating Putin. There's also that quite real Russian support for any movement that is in any way damaging to the unity of the EU (divide and charge more for the gas) and integrity of the US (destroy the remaining superpower from within).

The are countless possible ways in which EU-Russia relations will go. Personally, I don't as much expect as I do hope for a birth of an alliance instead of deepening the conflict. (Just to clarify: don't expect in it my lifetime, but Russia naturally belongs with the rest of us in Europe. Unless we manage to exterminate ourselves, we will be together one day.)

Trump, of course, makes it all much harder than would be - he wants Russia back into G7 while there are freaking sanctions in place. And sanctions are there because Russian irresponsible expansionism must be controlled. Etc. 

Still I believe Berlin and Paris are perfectly aware and capable of introducing the fine balance needed in relations with Russia.          

truth be told i can see what all the fuss about Putin. the dude is a rock in an ocean of turmoil. he's not that all dissimilar to Trump, righting the wrongs and injustices that he thinks his country has endured. i bet Trump is modelling himself on Putin, certainly has a man-crush on him like all the other Eastern European quasi dictators and a few also in the Middle East. so it stands to reason why Trump is more forgiving for Putins transgressions and more open to Russia joining the G7/8. 

...and you're perfectly right is stating that Russia is a natural part of Europe. and now with Britain on its way out and this new isolationist America withdrawing it will definitely become so. 

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1 hour ago, keithisco said:

Since the passing into Law of the Fixed-Term Parliament Act (2011) The Queen no longer has the power to unilaterally dissolve Parliament because an Act of Parliament is required to shorten the Fixed-Term of 5 years.

In theory The Queen has the ability to Declare War (not exercised since James 2nd) but the communication of such is handled by "The Crown" (i.e. The Government) which can be overturned by a vote of No Confidence in the House of Commons. 

just face it the Queen and the honour system she presides over is an impediment to democracy. it promotes the wrong types and undemocratic in nature. Britain is still hostage to a class system that rewards and encourages elitism in society. when comparing Britain to the EU the difference in democratic ideals is huge even though on face value it would appear to be the same. you complain about "faceless EU bureaucrats" but fail to mention the the backward imperial system that's controlling Britain.  

I wouldn't say that Britain is undemocratic because it gives its citizens many just a fair rights but certainly behind in promoting meritocracy. too much power is in hereditary hands.   

ask yourself which system, the EU parliament or the hereditary based British one better represents the true face of their respective constituents?  

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15 hours ago, bee said:


As if....:rolleyes:... but some 'insidious cabal' could be waiting in the wings - the bigger the organization the bigger the opportunities for
corruption and totalitarian take over ---- softly softly catchy monkey - or a sudden development like ---- oh I don't know....
engineering military conflict with Russia maybe - and emergency rules come into play where '''''rights''''' are suspended for
''''the common good'''''' then never go back again...

the checks and balances of sovereign nations (however imperfect their democracy) is a sensible precaution against totalitarian take over - IMO

oh and.... we haven't ACTUALLY left yet..... it seems to be such a complicated affair that it's taking YEARS .... and if we had adopted the
Euro it would probably have been even more of a difficult process....

 

i must say I'm surprised by the bolded statement. if anyone has been trying to engineer an incident with Russia it is certainly Britain. i thought we were in agreement that the poisoning of the former Russian spy has a hazy incident under much suspicion. incidents leading up to the Russian takeover of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine were also hostile acts that forced Russia's hands. of course the EU was also invoked but you can't pick and choose your facts to suit your arguments, bee. :) 

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5 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I think it's dawning on me why some Brits are convinced EU must be hiding some unelected ruling class somewhere. They keep projecting their own archaisms on the EU. But the EU wasn't made in the UK image. 

well said Helen. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

i must say I'm surprised by the bolded statement. if anyone has been trying to engineer an incident with Russia it is certainly Britain. i thought we were in agreement that the poisoning of the former Russian spy has a hazy incident under much suspicion.

What, a Russian defector is poisoned in Britain, and so it reflects badly on Britain? It has happened before, but not since the Cold War.

And neither has this kind of Pretzel logic, either. 

2 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

incidents leading up to the Russian takeover of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine were also hostile acts that forced Russia's hands. of course the EU was also invoked but you can't pick and choose your facts to suit your arguments, bee. :) 

Lack of interest is what cost Ukraine the Crimea, plain and simple. They don't miss it and nobody really cares anyway. 

The Donblas is a different matter entirely, and the fact that the EU can't negotiate a settlement there is not a good sign or much of a boost for the prestige of the EU. 

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11 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I think it's dawning on me why some Brits are convinced EU must be hiding some unelected ruling class somewhere. They keep projecting their own archaisms on the EU. But the EU wasn't made in the UK image. 

 

perhaps as we have long experience of an unelected ruling class - we can spot the modus operandi and warning signs -
you should be coming to us for our opinions because of our expertise on the subject....

when Croatia has had an Empire and a Commonwealth and an Intelligence Service like we've had (and have) -
you might have the instincts and intuition that we do regarding the EU - :D 

  

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6 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

i must say I'm surprised by the bolded statement. if anyone has been trying to engineer an incident with Russia it is certainly Britain. i thought we were in agreement that the poisoning of the former Russian spy has a hazy incident under much suspicion. incidents leading up to the Russian takeover of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine were also hostile acts that forced Russia's hands. of course the EU was also invoked but you can't pick and choose your facts to suit your arguments, bee. :) 

 

I don't think you 'got' what I was saying - I was just hypothesizing how the EU might morph from a kind of pseudo democracy to a
fully blown totalitarian super state...  and a war could do that - the obvious scenario would be war with Russia because that
would also include Europe's (Germany's?) long desired expansion into the territory - although the EU's rise to power has been done 
through stealth rather than open confrontation - kind of WW2 lite - ^_^ - so the political elite (the afore mentioned 'insidious cabal')
working behind the scenes will probably go for softly softly catchy monkey to create the totalitarian corporate borderless
super state they want - but who knows, things can change quickly if there was an international incident -   

And yes Britain has been at the forefront of engineering a hostile relationship between Russia and the West just lately -
with the Salisbury debacle - and that must be all tied up with Syria and Iran and Israel and Saudi Arabia and Oil - and whatnot - 
 

 

 

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On 09/06/2018 at 7:03 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

For the umpteenth time, each EU member has EU elections. Each member democratically elects EU representatives.

The EU officials aren't directly elected, just like officials of national governments aren't directly elected. Presidents mostly are directly elected (unlike in the US, where citizens elect electoral college, not the president), but EU has no president. Or queen, for that matter.

   

Why are you waisting your time with this? You are feeding trolls who dont even know how election works most of the time, or how european instituions are formed and or elected most of the time.

Who the hell elected Theresa May? Was Cameron elected by the people? Or any other prime minister? 

People keep confusing election with governance bodies officials.

Where I live (Portugal) only the President of the Republic is elected by universal vote, and he is not part of the Government. The Governement cabinet is formed by the Prime Minister, who in turned is nominated by the President after the legislation elections (where voting circuits elect deputies), usually the party or coalition with more votes gets its public figure head to be the Prime Minister, however the president may choose someone else, despite everyone thinking they are voting for the party representitive to be prime minister, wich it states clearly in the law that the prime minister is elected by the president and not by anyone else.

Same principles, direct votes for some things, nominations for other things occours also in the UK and the EU.

Hey but apparently UK election rules are somewhat magical because UK is a magical place with unicorns and princess that came from the sheeple.....

 

 

Corruption on the EU level is a total different thing, and also in a total different level than any singular country in the EU. Apparently some UM british members think they are living in a special bubble called UK. UK is as corrupted as any one else in western europe, its all about public perception, money and influence.

 

I dont like how the European Comission is formed but I can see the reasons on how its formed, by agreement from ALL EU member states governments, in other words by compromise, a bit like you know national parlaments.

I also agrre with the meddling in internal affairs of its member states, but in some cases its truly needed, SOME CASES.

Edited by godnodog
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1 hour ago, bee said:

 

perhaps as we have long experience of an unelected ruling class - we can spot the modus operandi and warning signs -
you should be coming to us for our opinions because of our expertise on the subject....

But you want out of EU, under excuse it's not transparent and democratic enough for your hereditary monarchy with current government that hangs on ultra-nationalist thread. 

Logic? 

 

1 hour ago, bee said:

when Croatia has had an Empire and a Commonwealth and an Intelligence Service like we've had (and have) -
you might have the instincts and intuition that we do regarding the EU - :D 

  

I wouldn't be proud of an empire. 

EU is a sort of commonwealth, only without monarch and without compulsion.

I never liked James Bond films.

It's not just my instincts (to connect with my own family) and intuition (that the future of my nation is within EU), it's also my experience that makes my own opinion much more suitable for my own interests, than your - again, oh, so arrogant - expertise.      

 

In other words, go isolate yourself. I like my neighbours and I want better connection with them all. 

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3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

But you want out of EU, under excuse it's not transparent and democratic enough for your hereditary monarchy with current government that hangs on ultra-nationalist thread. 

Logic? 


we have our history and monarchy and we have our imperfect democracy -  but by giving up sovereignty which every member
of the EU is required to do - we give up the chance of the citizens having control of their destiny through the ballot box -
sure the EU has it's parliament but because of the size of the EU and the extra large numbers than every MEP represents
it is a weaker form of democracy that holds greater posibility of corruption and totalitarian take over...

 

3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 

I wouldn't be proud of an empire. 

EU is a sort of commonwealth, only without monarch and without compulsion.

I never liked James Bond films.

It's not just my instincts (to connect with my own family) and intuition (that the future of my nation is within EU), it's also my experience that makes my own opinion much more suitable for my own interests, than your - again, oh, so arrogant - expertise.      

 

In other words, go isolate yourself. I like my neighbours and I want better connection with them all.

 

Historical facts are historical facts -
I was pointing out, in a tongue in cheek way, that we have a history that has educated us on the shenanigans of a Ruling Class... 

I think you will find that the EU has '''compulsion''' ----

And I don't think you are in a position to call me arrogant - pot kettle black and all that :D

re bolded.... when the EU has all borders removed, (if it gets that far) which is a fundamental tenet of the EU... 
you won't just have a better connection with them - you will be conjoined with them and be part of an EU region -
eventually Croatia will be no more --- if you're ok with that then good luck - and your region of the EU will be
compelled to follow EU laws - maybe at gun point if the EU army gets going and is used to enforce EU dictates...

oh and of course you don't like James Bond films - they are films for the boys -  :) but interestingly I have come across a snippit
of info recently that Flemming had some inside knowledge re Intel and built some of it into his novels... 

 

 

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7 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

What, a Russian defector is poisoned in Britain, and so it reflects badly on Britain? It has happened before, but not since the Cold War.

And neither has this kind of Pretzel logic, either. 

pretzels, what a great idea think i'll open a packet. the problem i have with the Salisbury poisoning is that as much as I'm against Putins gangsterism's and   imperial designs, the whole debacle smells fishing and unconvincing. something that bee and myself have communicated often. but you are free to believe what you like. 

7 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Lack of interest is what cost Ukraine the Crimea, plain and simple. They don't miss it and nobody really cares anyway. 

The Donblas is a different matter entirely, and the fact that the EU can't negotiate a settlement there is not a good sign or much of a boost for the prestige of the EU. 

  Ah, actually the coup de tat was the match that set fire the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine mess. Western encouragement of pro western interests in Ukraine were meet with Russian pre-emptive moves.

overall not the finest moment for the U.S. Britain or the EU.    

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I've been in Croatia recently, the people are proudly Croatian, proud of their newly found independent status won in a terrible war not that long ago, happy to be part of Europe while holding onto to their identity.

I don't believe they or France or Germany see the EU as eroding their national state - rather they see it as embellishing it. They are genuinely happy to talk to visitors to share their language, and to accept Euros or the Kuna in shops.

Croatia like Ireland see the EU as a partnership which is overall beneficial even if at times you don't get your own way, they like Ireland don't feel the need to be the dominant force, to be a voluntary partner is all that is required.

There is no military threat to retain membership if there was or ever is I suspect Croatia and Ireland exit.

Both are in EU having had their own experience with Empire and ruling classes

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12 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

I've been in Croatia recently, the people are proudly Croatian, proud of their newly found independent status won in a terrible war not that long ago, happy to be part of Europe while holding onto to their identity.

I don't believe they or France or Germany see the EU as eroding their national state - rather they see it as embellishing it. They are genuinely happy to talk to visitors to share their language, and to accept Euros or the Kuna in shops.

Croatia like Ireland see the EU as a partnership which is overall beneficial even if at times you don't get your own way, they like Ireland don't feel the need to be the dominant force, to be a voluntary partner is all that is required.

There is no military threat to retain membership if there was or ever is I suspect Croatia and Ireland exit.

Both are in EU having had their own experience with Empire and ruling classes

Thank you. 

(I apologize once more for the prices in Dubrovnik. The rest of the coast is much more affordable and less crowded.) 

 

It's not just the big politics, it's forums like this one, where I can regularly confirm who will reject me with scorn (UK über alles crowd), because of my location, and who accepts me as an equal, regardless of my location (pretty much everyone else, except actual professional Russian trolls).    

 

At least the situation in EU became clear: the louder and the more afraid of EU someone is, the thicker are their connections to Russian money and trolling. It's mostly not out true love for Putin, it's just shortsighted decision to make pact with political equivalent of the devil.  

There is absolutely no reason for any European country to reject closer cooperation with neighbours. Unless someone's craving rubles and power so much they are willing to destroy their independence, heritage and future in return. 

The EU is not in any way damaging for national identities and I'm just one of the living proofs of that. My own national identity was forged under artillery fire, so it's not something I will ever take lightly. 

It's not the EU that poses any threat to me, or to the sovereignty of my country, for which we paid the highest price. 

It's the Russian financed, anti-EU, bizarre right that would sell my country, complete with the graves of my own family and friends, for their own personal, relatively small, gain.   

No, not 'over my dead body'. Because I will rise from the grave too if needed be.

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11 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It's not just the big politics, it's forums like this one, where I can regularly confirm who will reject me with scorn (UK über alles crowd), because of my location, and who accepts me as an equal, regardless of my location (pretty much everyone else, except actual professional Russian trolls).    

 

At least the situation in EU became clear: the louder and the more afraid of EU someone is, the thicker are their connections to Russian money and trolling. It's mostly not out true love for Putin, it's just shortsighted decision to make pact with political equivalent of the devil.  

 

your paranoia knows no bounds when it comes to Russia... it's like you think it's still the Soviet Union -
the EU is probably more like communist Russia than modern Russia is...

you (and me) are more likely to be targeted by our own governments in regards to propaganda than any coming from the Russian Federation -

 

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58 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

I've been in Croatia recently, the people are proudly Croatian, proud of their newly found independent status won in a terrible war not that long ago, happy to be part of Europe while holding onto to their identity.

I don't believe they or France or Germany see the EU as eroding their national state - rather they see it as embellishing it. They are genuinely happy to talk to visitors to share their language, and to accept Euros or the Kuna in shops.

Croatia like Ireland see the EU as a partnership which is overall beneficial even if at times you don't get your own way, they like Ireland don't feel the need to be the dominant force, to be a voluntary partner is all that is required.

There is no military threat to retain membership if there was or ever is I suspect Croatia and Ireland exit.

Both are in EU having had their own experience with Empire and ruling classes

 

bolded.... by then it will be too late.... the EU army will be deployed to ensure the smooth running of the regions involved  ^_^
(for the greater good of course)

Regions instead of countries is the way the EU intends to go.... and I think they will deliberately over lap old national boundries
to further the overall integration -

I haven't got time right now to look any further than this link that I've just had a look at... regarding regions..

http://www.socialprogressimperative.org/custom-indexes/european-union/

“The Social Progress Index provides a concrete framework for understanding and then translating policies into an action oriented agenda which advances both social and economic competitiveness in Europe’s regions. This is essential for us as policymakers.”

 

there was a bit of a hoo ha a few years ago when John Prescott (deputy PM to Blair) floated the idea of voting in EU regions in the UK
they were the regions the EU would use to divide up the UK - the proposal went down like a lead balloon and was soon dropped
disappearing into the mists of time...... obviously the public wasn't '''ready''' for that at that point in time... can't remember any more
about that without spending time looking for it.... 

 

   

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And the most infuriating detail is that these god-damned pro-Russian propaganda spewers are underestimating my intelligence. 

 

It reminds me of the most hilarious episode, when UK, searching for support for their Brexit, extended propaganda tentacle in Croatian direction, paying for the articles that were peddling the theory of the UK being the best Croatian friend, unlike those mean Germans, who kept Croatia away from the EU. And now our best friend, the UK, will help us out of EU, just like the helped us in :lol:

It was so bizarre, so unbelievably stupid. 

Like Croats will ever forget who recognized us: Iceland and Germany first. Like we'll ever forget who made the god-damned ex-Yu, to the freaking likeness of their own kingdom, only they couldn't find an actual king in Serbia, after they had assassinated the also pro-European count, so they invented the blasted Karadjordjevic dynasty, whose surname is half Turkish, resting that case in all its bizarre, traitorous glory.

In short, nothing's changed in British politics towards this part of the world: support anyone who is in any way damaging for the peace and cooperation in Europe. Care not for the casualties among the natives. 

Well, no.

You'll have to lie more and more convincingly. Kidding. You can't lie your way out of this.   

 

 

 

Edit: to add, regarding the post above, where bee's imagining EU army crushing national resistances - who do you think will be the EU army? Martians? 

Or the possible and apparently much needed joined EU armed forces will be assembled from the member states' forces? 

 

Why, indeed, am I wasting my time here? 

       

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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14 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

just face it the Queen and the honour system she presides over is an impediment to democracy. it promotes the wrong types and undemocratic in nature. Britain is still hostage to a class system that rewards and encourages elitism in society. when comparing Britain to the EU the difference in democratic ideals is huge even though on face value it would appear to be the same. you complain about "faceless EU bureaucrats" but fail to mention the the backward imperial system that's controlling Britain.  

I wouldn't say that Britain is undemocratic because it gives its citizens many just a fair rights but certainly behind in promoting meritocracy. too much power is in hereditary hands.   

ask yourself which system, the EU parliament or the hereditary based British one better represents the true face of their respective constituents?  

I gave you the tools to educate yourself, with links direct to their source from the Bodies, Organisations themselves, yet you turn your back on actually bothering to follow them up. You prefer to live in your "bubble of Ignorance" - that is your choice - but know that the offer was made for you to actually debate from a base of knowledge. Your arguments and comments hold no credibility when faced with the Facts and Reality of my replies and so your arguments all FALL.

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28 minutes ago, keithisco said:

I gave you the tools to educate yourself, with links direct to their source from the Bodies, Organisations themselves, yet you turn your back on actually bothering to follow them up. You prefer to live in your "bubble of Ignorance" - that is your choice - but know that the offer was made for you to actually debate from a base of knowledge. Your arguments and comments hold no credibility when faced with the Facts and Reality of my replies and so your arguments all FALL.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that now a days anyway the monarchs hold little sway. That there are checks and balances in place to ensure an abuse of power isn't used.

Just like our Irish president, the only power the president has is appointment of the Taoiseach, members of the Government, judges and other officials;
Summoning and dissolving the Dáil, and convening the Oireachtas;
Signing legislation into law and/or referring Bills to the Supreme Court;
Representing the people of Ireland;
Acting as Supreme Commander of the Defence Forces.

Basically all supervisual.

Edited by danydandan
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1 minute ago, danydandan said:

Just like our Irish president, the only power the president has is to delay a bill being enacted into law.

Unlike the Irish president the head of State of the UK is unelected and is there by dent of birth

The second chamber the Lords is unelected and many are there by dent of birth.

The election of MPs by the first past the post method means that the government and indeed parliament is not reflective of the views of the country

That the UK has a Head of State who is decided upon based on parentage is hardly reflective of a modern forward looking society - however well the present inhabitant has fulfilled the role.

Therefore while it is right to say that the unelected  play a very minor role in the enactment of legislation - they still are part of the apparatus of State and are a throw back to Lord / serf past.

You either like it or you don't

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2 hours ago, danydandan said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that now a days anyway the monarchs hold little sway. That there are checks and balances in place to ensure an abuse of power isn't used.

Just like our Irish president, the only power the president has is appointment of the Taoiseach, members of the Government, judges and other officials;
Summoning and dissolving the Dáil, and convening the Oireachtas;
Signing legislation into law and/or referring Bills to the Supreme Court;
Representing the people of Ireland;
Acting as Supreme Commander of the Defence Forces.

Basically all supervisual.

Your President has greater powers than the UK Monarch does. The Queen cannot refer any Bills to our Supreme Court or appoint any of the Judiciary.She can only dissolve a Parliament at the request of the Government after a Bill has been passed in the Commons

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On 6/4/2018 at 7:47 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

Obviously, EU is not an empire, since an empire would intervene in Catalunya.

While their desire for independence is not hard for me to understand, it was one of the worst moments possible to go for it. Because of Brexit, among other complications that are happening lately. Standing on Catalunya's side by saying that yes, they can rejoin as an independent state, would be seen as EU encouraging independence from UK too. Even worse with telling Spain seriously to calm the **** down – it would be the proof of loss of sovereignty within the EU, which various Euro-phobes are dreaming of.

I wouldn't really think about it this way if it wasn't Spain and UK that did everything politically possible to hinder my country's independence and joining EU, simply because we successfully broke out of a country that truly wasn't a kingdom anymore, but it was a state consisting of few historically and nationally separate entities. 

They didn't intervene because Spain is pro-EU. So they allowed them to oppress the Catalonians, who would exit the EU if they went independent (at least initially). Same way Scotland would have.

Edited by Finity
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