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Is the EU sacrificing democracy?


danydandan

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On 5/31/2018 at 10:09 AM, RabidMongoose said:

I want Britain to leave the EU, reclaim its superpower status, and then forge its own path forward.

Make Britain great again?  Being independent might be worth the price, but it doesn't guarantee greatness and glory.

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20 minutes ago, Finity said:

They didn't intervene because Spain is pro-EU. So they allowed them to oppress the Catalonians, who would exit the EU if they went independent (at least initially). Same way Scotland would have.

Catalunya would not have to exit EU, because it wouldn't be in the EU from the moment it exits Spain, because Spain is a member state in the EU, which doesn't happen overnight, but after the process of joining was completed. New country means new joining process. 

Though there are similarities, Scotland is separate situation, because UK and Spain do not have identical constitutions. 

A little detail, the whereabouts of the leader of the Catalunyan independence movement, after the Spanish government issued an arrest warrant against him, should have told you that the EU is not against Catalunyan rights. It's just, like I said, that the worse moment for the push for independence was hard to imagine. I guess they were promised support from the proverbial supporter of anything and anyone that will shake the EU, and I don't really blame them for accepting it, but it made the timing all wrong. 

I wish them better luck the next time. 

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Make Britain great again?  Being independent might be worth the price, but it doesn't guarantee greatness and glory.

You're right. I dont even care about any nebulous notion of "Greatness". I do care about re-engaging with the wider world as a fully Sovereign Nation and not having to constantly refer everything that the UK does back to the EU Commission-or seek its permission to trade with whomsoever we want to.

It will be tough for a time but infinitely worthwhile.

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9 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

...

Why, indeed, am I wasting my time here? 

       

I dunno, I just figured you were here to annoy a whole bunch of people until they finally snapped and spat something back at you that would justify your manifold prejudices. 

Other than that, I can't imagine why. 

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42 minutes ago, keithisco said:

You're right. I dont even care about any nebulous notion of "Greatness". I do care about re-engaging with the wider world as a fully Sovereign Nation and not having to constantly refer everything that the UK does back to the EU Commission-or seek its permission to trade with whomsoever we want to.

It will be tough for a time but infinitely worthwhile.

Well then, if you go into it with open eyes and know it might be a struggle, its worth it isn't it?

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4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Well then, if you go into it with open eyes and know it might be a struggle, its worth it isn't it?

as long as you don’t exchange one overlord for another, yeah it’s worth it.

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18 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

I dunno, I just figured you were here to annoy a whole bunch of people until they finally snapped and spat something back at you that would justify your manifold prejudices. 

Other than that, I can't imagine why. 

Have you just admitted you guys proved my opinion to be correct, with your own posts? :D

Thanks. 

Other than that, the fact that there're Russians in Brexit is slowly going out in public. It's not just crazy me seeing Russians. It's the very special group of people (not to use the actual noun) not seeing them.  

There is so much of typical dezinformatsiya style in Brexiter panic. 

Insufficient democracy in the EU, people from a monarchy say.

While in reality, the EU has literally doubled an average citizen's chance to influence the politics - we can and we should vote in both national and European elections. 

Which reminds me to remind everyone to vote. Vote, people. For the love of god, vote, in every elections, even if you don't see a perfect option for you. Choose the lesser evil. Don't think your vote doesn't matter. Do not let the extremists, who are diligently voting, to determine your future for you.    

 

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3 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Have you just admitted you guys proved my opinion to be correct, with your own posts? :D

Thanks. 

Other than that, the fact that there're Russians in Brexit is slowly going out in public. It's not just crazy me seeing Russians. It's the very special group of people (not to use the actual noun) not seeing them.  

There is so much of typical dezinformatsiya style in Brexiter panic. 

Insufficient democracy in the EU, people from a monarchy say.

While in reality, the EU has literally doubled an average citizen's chance to influence the politics - we can and we should vote in both national and European elections. 

Which reminds me to remind everyone to vote. Vote, people. For the love of god, vote, in every elections, even if you don't see a perfect option for you. Choose the lesser evil. Don't think your vote doesn't matter. Do not let the extremists, who are diligently voting, to determine your future for you.    

 

It's all Russia in your mind.

Was Russia also responsible for the EU treaties, laws, regulation, directives diktats and policies which led to the 17.4million people saying sod this, enough is enough and voted to leave?

 

 

Edited by stevewinn
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2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

 

It's all Russia in your mind.

Was Russia also responsible for the EU treaties, laws, regulation, directives diktats and policies which led to the 17.4million people saying sod this, enough is enough and voted to leave?

 

 

Because it is Russia in your structures. Financial and political, manipulating you. 

*snip*

No, Russia was not responsible for any of the EU treaties, because if it was, there would be smoldering crater in the place of Central Europe by now. Not responsible for laws either, because if it was, homosexuality would be a crime again. Regulations would not exist for the oligarchs close to the dictator himself. Directions, they don't give in the form of advice. While diktats do not exist in the EU. Policies we all agree upon or they are not applied. 

Tell me again, how is cooperation between European countries endangering you?

Why is regulating and organizing things less desirable to you than the chaos and conflict? 

If it wasn't a political platform, but a person, they would be considered mentally ill.        

In short, narrow majority of people in your country was tricked (money for the NHS instead of for the EU) and/or panicked (EU is bringing brown people to UK. like you didn't import them on your own. how dare they be brown?) to vote for isolationism. It comes down to isolationism, you know. Because all the amazing new treaties you were *snip *  expecting are now missing precisely because you sent the worst of the worst messages with your Brexit. 

It's not a coincidence that you are doing the same self-destructing mistake that Other isolationist are doing in the same manner. The script is the same. And it's in Cyrillic. 

I don't blame people who honestly believed there will be more money for the NHS if you leave. I personally respected their decision they made based on the information they believed is accurate. Now they know it wasn't accurate. Soon it will be widely known it was in accordance with Russian desires and with direct Russian assistance. Not because Russia will make NHS great again. They only need you to destroy the still fragile European unity. They were aware it will seriously damage you too. 

You can keep denying it, of course, but it won't change the reality.         

And the obvious reality is that isolationists are dancing to the Russian tune. 

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@stevewinn

over to you Steve............ :D

(.........when you've finished your dancing to the Russian tunes )

 

 

Edited by bee
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3 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Was Russia also responsible for the EU treaties, laws, regulation, directives diktats and policies which led to the 17.4million people saying sod this, enough is enough and voted to leave?

In relation to the 17.4 million UK lemmings who said 'sod this' and stampeded for the cliff-edge, it was the UK government that helped formulate those EU treaties, and it was the UK parliament - and only the UK parliament, not the UK people - that signed up to those treaties.

The UK elites have driven their own people over the edge and your economy is following them. Your indigenous economy is labouring at the moment. Your High Street commerce is contracting. Slowest growth in the G20. Your trade deficit in goods not offset by a trade surplus in services, and it is widening. Economic growth stagnant. Manufacturing output continues to fall. Unemployment low but poorly paid insecure jobs at an all-time high. Dearth of STEM expertise and skills in the workforce. :(

 

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@keithisco I noticed you liked my remark about exchanging one overlord for another. That’s how I roll mate. Brutally honest. and to be fair I can see where you’re coming from.  Trade and defence have become collective in nature and a must to thrive. Sad that the days of empire and nation building through trade and conquests are over but that’s the way of it. In short the sum total of a union is larger that the individual. Thus the individual grows as the union does.

I’d like your views on how you think the UK will be able to not be accountable to any one and yet still grow it’s economy and global footprint?

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18 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

In relation to the 17.4 million UK lemmings who said 'sod this' and stampeded for the cliff-edge, it was the UK government that helped formulate those EU treaties, and it was the UK parliament - and only the UK parliament, not the UK people - that signed up to those treaties.

The UK elites have driven their own people over the edge and your economy is following them. Your indigenous economy is labouring at the moment. Your High Street commerce is contracting. Slowest growth in the G20. Your trade deficit in goods not offset by a trade surplus in services, and it is widening. Economic growth stagnant. Manufacturing output continues to fall. Unemployment low but poorly paid insecure jobs at an all-time high. Dearth of STEM expertise and skills in the workforce. :(

 

Lemmings, cliff edge, people going over the edge economy following them, pull yourself together ya big tart.

 

 

 

 

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@Captain Risky Defence, I think, has almost always been founded on a collective response to ward off threats from potential aggressors. NATO has been fundamental in maintaining Peace in much of Europe for more than 70 years albeit only down to the generosity of various US Administrations to bankroll a large part of that Defence. There was an agreement that members of NATO would devote 2% of their GDP to ensure that the burden was more evenly spread but only the UK and Poland plus 2 much smaller European Nations have ever honoured that target, so I do not see a collective assumption of defence in the EU.

As for trade, it is only the EU Bloc that demands free-movement and the Supremacy of its own Courts over National Law-making to become a member of that Bloc, and then makes an annual charge on that membership over which you have no veto rights when it comes to spending. With the EU share of Global GDP falling alarmingly, and the still enormous youth unemployment in Southern Europe then I would contest the idea that in this case being a member of the EU is actually beneficial except to Germany who benefits enormously from having the Euro which is hugely undervalued compared to its National Economy 

I have never lived in a "Empire" so have no desire to resurrect one-that is an Alien Concept to me

    

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Speaking of Euro, interestingly, Italy will keep it, according to the recent news.

Isolationists ( ;) ) everywhere were so happy that an 'anti-establishment' movement and a far-right party were able to assemble new Italian government, supposing that will take Italy out of Europe, free them from Euro and Africans and whatnot.

So, why is Italy not isolating itself now? Is the new Italian government not anti- and far- enough, or were their campaign promises too irrational even for their own taste?

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7 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Speaking of Euro, interestingly, Italy will keep it, according to the recent news.

Isolationists ( ;) ) everywhere were so happy that an 'anti-establishment' movement and a far-right party were able to assemble new Italian government, supposing that will take Italy out of Europe, free them from Euro and Africans and whatnot.

So, why is Italy not isolating itself now? Is the new Italian government not anti- and far- enough, or were their campaign promises too irrational even for their own taste?

Helen, Italy took already 600 000 "engineers". How much more "engineering" Italy needs?

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1 hour ago, bmk1245 said:

Helen, Italy took already 600 000 "engineers". How much more "engineering" Italy needs?

:lol: Don't be disgusting.

I'm not saying Europe needs that much engineering, I'm saying that engineers are people too. Can't just let them drown. Screw our civilization if we can let others drown just like that. 

The idea was that every member helps with the engineer surge, because the EU is 500+ million people, you wouldn't even see an engineer if they were distributed, instead of left to engineer Italy into panic. 

Mildly important thing about this is that migrants were coming for years before it was popular to be concerned with it. It is an actual problem, giant one, but if we would cooperate, then we'd have only the constant migrant problem and not the additional problem in form of various (more often than not sold to Russians) amateurs that are winning elections based on hysteric fear alone. 

What solution do they offer? Tossing engineers out of their country. And they're back by midnight. Regardless what route they'll take, because I don't think it's wise to assume if I reroute them to the left or to the right, it's not my problem anymore. 

Slovenia is frothing right now because 'Austria has no right to close the border'. Interesting. But Slovenia thinks it has that right, then we froth and so on. 

Call me naive, but I think we should start cooperating and stop wasting nerves and resources on trying to pass it around.  

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13 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Speaking of Euro, interestingly, Italy will keep it, according to the recent news.

Isolationists ( ;) ) everywhere were so happy that an 'anti-establishment' movement and a far-right party were able to assemble new Italian government, supposing that will take Italy out of Europe, free them from Euro and Africans and whatnot.

So, why is Italy not isolating itself now? Is the new Italian government not anti- and far- enough, or were their campaign promises too irrational even for their own taste?

 

Funny you should put a little (wink) after ''''Isolationists''' because in a previous post of yours I could have sworn you edited
the words Brexiteers and Trump Voters to '''Isolationists''' but there was no record of the post being edited like there usually is...
never mind perhaps I was just seeing things ( ;) ) -

I'm getting pretty tired with ordinary citizens who are concerned with the direction their country is taking being labeled 'far right'...

Such an obvious tactic to try and shut people up and drive a wedge between members of the General Public who have genuine concerns -

Italy has no choice but to keep the Euro for now.... and if it did ever leave the EU it would probably have additional problems separating 
itself from the Euro - extra pressures that needed sorting out while trying to keep the economy stable and afloat... 

The UK didn't adopt the Euro so at least we don't have all that to attend to on top of everything else -- 

 

 

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6 hours ago, bee said:

 

Funny you should put a little (wink) after ''''Isolationists''' because in a previous post of yours I could have sworn you edited
the words Brexiteers and Trump Voters to '''Isolationists''' but there was no record of the post being edited like there usually is...
never mind perhaps I was just seeing things ( ;) ) -

 

It wasn't me. My post was moderated and I was dying from desire to say that I think the moderating was absolutely gentle, sort of ingenious and the result is very humorous (for me, because I know what were the original words). 

I didn't think I'll live to see the day when I'm happy with my post being moderated :lol:

I also didn't think I'll get the chance to talk about this :D

All in all, little miracles do happen. And that's all we need. 

 

Forgive me for not reading the rest of your post. I've decided to limit my contribution, constructively, by not repeating myself too excessively.  

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On 6/12/2018 at 11:45 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

:lol: Don't be disgusting.

I'm not saying Europe needs that much engineering, I'm saying that engineers are people too. Can't just let them drown. Screw our civilization if we can let others drown just like that. 

The idea was that every member helps with the engineer surge, because the EU is 500+ million people, you wouldn't even see an engineer if they were distributed, instead of left to engineer Italy into panic. 

Mildly important thing about this is that migrants were coming for years before it was popular to be concerned with it. It is an actual problem, giant one, but if we would cooperate, then we'd have only the constant migrant problem and not the additional problem in form of various (more often than not sold to Russians) amateurs that are winning elections based on hysteric fear alone. 

What solution do they offer? Tossing engineers out of their country. And they're back by midnight. Regardless what route they'll take, because I don't think it's wise to assume if I reroute them to the left or to the right, it's not my problem anymore. 

Slovenia is frothing right now because 'Austria has no right to close the border'. Interesting. But Slovenia thinks it has that right, then we froth and so on. 

Call me naive, but I think we should start cooperating and stop wasting nerves and resources on trying to pass it around.  

Things is, highly dedicated minority can wreck havoc over entire nations. How many bolshevicks were back in 1917? Several thousand (10-20, ballpark figure). They did managed to turn whole 300 million country into freakin' GULAG. Do I have to expand?

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51 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Things is, highly dedicated minority can wreck havoc over entire nations. How many bolshevicks were back in 1917? Several thousand (10-20, ballpark figure). They did managed to turn whole 300 million country into freakin' GULAG. Do I have to expand?

True. But dedicated professionals can save their nations from the actions of radical minority.

There was a case of Tunisian couple getting caught few days ago with poisonous substance. Maybe you didn't notice that marginal news, because these freaks were successfully stopped from making it breaking news.

And who stopped them? Hysteric far-right, spamming around the Internet? No, the police. Because these were Tunisians? No, because it's against to law to keep that particular poison at home. 

 

Speaking of bolsheviks, how about we don't carry water for their grandsons, who are partially responsible for the intensifying of the migrant issue in Europe and are trying their best to use the fear of migrants to divide us?

They were systematically working on destroying our nations' identities, through direct terror. They failed. There's especially morbid irony in the fact that today they would use the certain paranoia we feel when our identities are in question, to pit us against each other.

In other words, I don't think there's anyone who's overjoyed with migrants in large numbers, but when attempting to solve one problem, it's generally considered wise not to create more even worse problems.

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On 6/13/2018 at 2:20 AM, bee said:

I'm getting pretty tired with ordinary citizens who are concerned with the direction their country is taking being labeled 'far right'...

Such an obvious tactic to try and shut people up and drive a wedge between members of the General Public who have genuine concerns -

 Funny, I am getting pretty tired with ordinary citizens who are concerned with the direction of their country is taking being labeled far left, *******, snowflakes.

Such an obvious tactic to try and shut people up and drive a wedge between members of the General Public who have genuine concerns -

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1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

 Funny, I am getting pretty tired with ordinary citizens who are concerned with the direction of their country is taking being labeled far left, *******, snowflakes.

Such an obvious tactic to try and shut people up and drive a wedge between members of the General Public who have genuine concerns -

 

and the moral of the story is '''labels''' are weaponized and used to divide and rule - and we should all learn to Play Nicely - 

(otherwise the political elite and corporate power junkies rub their hands in glee and laugh all the way to the bank leaving the
afore mentioned General Public tearing each other to shreds verbally and emotionally - or in the case of war .......... literally.... ) :hmm:

  

 

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20 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

True. But dedicated professionals can save their nations from the actions of radical minority.

[...]

And dedicated professionals are? As far as I see any word against immigrants is considered as islamophobia.

 

20 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

[...]

There was a case of Tunisian couple getting caught few days ago with poisonous substance. Maybe you didn't notice that marginal news, because these freaks were successfully stopped from making it breaking news.

[...]

 

They were caught, ain't they? But how about Rochdale case? How dare dirty brits accusing noble Pakies over their traditions? 

 

20 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

[...]

Speaking of bolsheviks, how about we don't carry water for their grandsons, who are partially responsible for the intensifying of the migrant issue in Europe and are trying their best to use the fear of migrants to divide us?

[...]

What?! A'm kinda lost your train of thought.

20 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

[...]

They were systematically working on destroying our nations' identities, through direct terror. [...]

Islam is doing exactly that!

20 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

[...]

In other words, I don't think there's anyone who's overjoyed with migrants in large numbers, but when attempting to solve one problem, it's generally considered wise not to create more even worse problems.

Thing is, Merkel opened hell's gate, so to speak. And she is directly responsible for encouraging human trafficking (Africa->Europe).

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8 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

And dedicated professionals are? As far as I see any word against immigrants is considered as islamophobia.

The professionals whose job is the security of their country. No talkative right-winger has ever stopped an act of terror by running their mouth on the Internet, you know. It's what various services deal with and usually the police finishes, apprehending the potential terrorists. Then the mentioned mouthy right-wingers complain it wasn't enough.  Because they'd do it better, I suppose, if only someone asked them how. 

Well, let me ask: how? 

How would you stop the terrorists? 

By stopping the migrants? How many terrorists were migrants? Very very few. How many domestic morons? Nearly all of them. 

 

8 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

They were caught, ain't they? But how about Rochdale case? How dare dirty brits accusing noble Pakies over their traditions? 

What Pakies have to do with recent migrations? 

And would you care even if you knew what is the exact number of people with Pakistani descent, whose work is directly protecting Britain, I'd say quite successfully so far, thus protecting the rest of us too, because - newsflash - it's all connected lately.   

 

8 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

What?! A'm kinda lost your train of thought.

Sure you did. It happens to a lot of people, by strange coincidence at the same moment they realize they have nothing to counter me with. 

Let me rephrase the part you didn't understand: 

Spreading irrational fear of migrants and Muslims is one of tools of Kremlin propaganda machine. 

 

I said irrational fear, do not attempt to act like it means I said any caution should be dropped or any crime forgiven.   

 

8 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Islam is doing exactly that!

Saudi money financed terrorist Wahhabi flavour of misused Islam is doing that, it's unrealistic to conflate every Muslim with abomination of their faith. 

I personally know people, mostly Bosnians, who happen to be Muslim and do you know what's the difference between us and them? None.  

Sure, those who formally pray are doing it differently, but let me shock you: my best childhood friend had Muslim mother and the kids were given information about both Islam and Christianity, they were given literature and opinion of the adult family members, but they were let to choose their faith or the lack of one. 

 

8 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Thing is, Merkel opened hell's gate, so to speak. And she is directly responsible for encouraging human trafficking (Africa->Europe).

She personally, yeah, right. Because she had a choice, given all the factors. 

So, according to you, if Seehofer manages to close the border, the African human trafficking will stop?

Will you bet on that?   

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