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Faith, a want or a need?


danydandan

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1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

you don't have to be such a d&%k about it.

That's a matter of perception.

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Just now, XenoFish said:

That's a matter of perception.

Or misperception. If you can't reach the grapes, then they just have to be sour, they just have to! 

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1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

If you can't reach the grapes, then they just have to be sour, they just have to! 

Or the grapes become wine, and you go through life in a drunken stupor.

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Just now, XenoFish said:

Or the grapes become wine, and you go through life in a drunken stupor.

I'd like you to try, just once a day, to say something righteous and hopeful for a change. Lucy Van Pelt's got nothing on you.:rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

I'd like you to try, just once a day, to say something righteous and hopeful for a change. Lucy Van Pelt's got nothing on you.:rolleyes:

I wouldn't take bets on that.

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Call me silly, but I firmly believe in:

- Extraterrestrial intelligent life.

- ET UFO's.

- Multiple dimensions.

- Life flourishing in those dimensions.

- God.

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7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Or the grapes become wine, and you go through life in a drunken stupor.

I'll drink to that!

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24 minutes ago, JMPD1 said:

I'll drink to that!

I don't drink to faith, but I do have a big glass of cynicism each morning. I add it a couple of spoonful of sarcasm for flavor.

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On 6/2/2018 at 6:31 PM, Pagels Price 1 said:

I can choose not to believe in the available narratives or man-made stories we have here on earth.

Makes sense. The letter kills. Pauline doctrine!

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19 hours ago, danydandan said:

Agnosticism is a point of view that states nothing of a God is knowable and thus belief or non belief is irrelevant. Thus not really caring.

That is certainly one belief, or opinion, behind forming an agnostic view. However there are others. A person can care very much if gods exist, and really want them to, or fear that they do, but refuse, on principle, to construct a belief position.

Others, like myself, are resistant to constructing beliefs unless those beliefs serve a specific purpose (like believing that my wife loves me)   because we don't see inherent value in them, or because we were trained as children to use knowledge rather than belief to govern our attitudes and behaviour eg.  one of my parent's maxims was,  "It doesn't matter what, if anything, you believe;  it is how you behave, that counts"  

Not all agnostics  think that  gods are unknowable, they just  don't want to construct or shape a god construct which may not reflect what god(s)  is/are actually like.   Ie a lot of atheists have the opinion of  "wait and see"  ie When a god appears i will know they are real  

Edited by Mr Walker
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19 hours ago, Baldylocks said:

Why do people think atheism is a belief system? if someone came up to you now and said "omg there is an invisible guy called Greg what watches you sometimes at night" would it be a "belief system" if you didn't believe and ignored him? or does this only work with God?

It would be a belief.

If it was a bit wider and organised, and involved other variables, then it would be a belief system.

A better, more accurate description is that disbelief is a mental construct almost identical to belief And so yes it applies to anything.

Is there life on mars?  

Are there aliens visiting earth?.

Does the loch ness monster/bigfoot actually exist? 

A person can construct either belief or disbelief in any of those things, using almost identical processes of cognition.   

So take Greg.

If you  believed he existed, and also believe he did certain things, and then believed he did those things for specific reasons, you would have a belief system  

If you disbelieved in Greg; disbelieved in any purpose for Greg, and disbelieved  all his activities; and also disbelieved other similar propositions, then you have constructed a system of disbelief,. which is in opposition to the belief system of the first person. 

If you had never heard of Greg, or similar entities, or imagined them for yourself,  then you would have neither belief nor disbelief, but a lack of belief caused by your lack of contact withe idea/accept of Greg and his nocturnal activities 

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 I dont know any atheist what has made some "disbelief" system against God. They just ask for proof and if they don't get any (which they wouldn't) they would just be like "well sorry I don't believe" and go on their way. Its just humans having to label everything, you don't have a word for not believing in loch ness. Unless I'm very mistaken?

Edited by Baldylocks
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28 minutes ago, Baldylocks said:

Unless I'm very mistaken?

You're not. :)

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4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It would be a belief.

If it was a bit wider and organised, and involved other variables, then it would be a belief system.

A better, more accurate description is that disbelief is a mental construct almost identical to belief And so yes it applies to anything.

Is there life on mars?  

Are there aliens visiting earth?.

Does the loch ness monster/bigfoot actually exist? 

A person can construct either belief or disbelief in any of those things, using almost identical processes of cognition.   

So take Greg.

If you  believed he existed, and also believe he did certain things, and then believed he did those things for specific reasons, you would have a belief system  

If you disbelieved in Greg; disbelieved in any purpose for Greg, and disbelieved  all his activities; and also disbelieved other similar propositions, then you have constructed a system of disbelief,. which is in opposition to the belief system of the first person. 

If you had never heard of Greg, or similar entities, or imagined them for yourself,  then you would have neither belief nor disbelief, but a lack of belief caused by your lack of contact withe idea/accept of Greg and his nocturnal activities 

Hi Walker

Or people have belief systems about how or what other people believe and even tell them what, how or why they do with no understanding of that person.

jmccr8

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On 03/06/2018 at 6:15 AM, XenoFish said:

How many times have you been told and shown that atheism isn't a belief system. It's simply not believing in a god/s/ess's or wtf-ever. How very illy of you. 

We are biological robots living in a meaningless Universe that sprang from 'nothing'.

Here's how the atheist fill the existantial void. With his/her own beliefs.

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24 minutes ago, Brother_Spirit said:

We are biological robots living in a meaningless Universe that sprang from 'nothing'.

Here's how the atheist fill the existantial void. With his/her own beliefs.

If there is a God how did it get here? don't tell me...was always there right so pretty much came from "nothing". Even though God, if it was real, would be the most complicated thing of us all yet didn't need a maker, yet everything else does cause its too "complicated" not to.

And again, atheist just means they don't believe in Gods cause no proof. Its nothing to do with "coming from voids".

Edited by Baldylocks
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1 hour ago, Brother_Spirit said:

We are biological robots living in a meaningless Universe that sprang from 'nothing'.

Here's how the atheist fill the existantial void. With his/her own beliefs.

Try being an atheist for a while. 

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5 hours ago, Brother_Spirit said:

We are biological robots living in a meaningless Universe that sprang from 'nothing'.

Here's how the atheist fill the existantial void. With his/her own beliefs.

Doesn't the bible state everything  other than "God" is worthless and meaningless?

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On 6/2/2018 at 6:50 PM, XenoFish said:

My point being that religion is an addiction, you can become addicted to what you've chosen to believe.

 

On 6/2/2018 at 7:02 PM, XenoFish said:

Faith is a want for some and a need for others. Something to fill that existential void. 

 

On 6/3/2018 at 3:15 AM, XenoFish said:

How many times have you been told and shown that atheism isn't a belief system. It's simply not believing in a god/s/ess's or wtf-ever. How very illy of you. 

I find it strange how people who choose not to Believe in any form of religion can somehow say that they have no Belief system. Whatever it is you choose to believe is a belief system, is it not? For if you believe that there is no God/Creator of any kind, then you are putting your trust in this idea, which at the end of the day is what you don't want it to be... A BELIEF SYSTEM.

Edited by Ogbin
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7 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

 

 

I find it strange how people who choose not to Believe in any form of religion can somehow say that they have no Belief system. Whatever it is you choose to believe is a belief system, is it not? For if you believe that there is no God/Creator of any kind, then you are putting your trust in this idea, which at the end of the day is what you don't want it to be... A BELIEF SYSTEM.

Do you want clarification? How about people who choose not to have a spiritual belief system. Does that work for you? Do I need to put a bow on it and some fancy ribbons? Dress it up and give it a party invitation? Make it seem all deep and meaningful, like a swan dive off into the short end of the pool.

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I believe your question is too simple.  for many people, faith is just lived out in a community.   Some do dig deeper, others simply believe, and perhaps are more like a practical atheist.  They don't have the desire to ask the deep questions, or the time.  Today, however, I believe that we all need to study our beliefs, whatever they are because there are so many voices out there.  

Practical atheism is the view that one should live their life with disregard towards a god. Practical atheism doesn't reject or accept claims about god. [1] [2] Practical atheism has been mistaken with apatheism and pragmatic atheism. Apatheism sees the god question as irrelevant while practical atheism does not. Since practical atheism doesn't address the god claim one can be both a theist and a practical atheist.

I guess you could say the same for the atheist, need, or desire?  Some seem to have an ax to grind, not sure they are 'true' atheist.  Just angry.  Of course, there is a lot to be angry over when it comes to religion, but the same can be said of politics as well.  As a Christian, I am not surprised at failure, so  I don't allow the actions of others or the leaders of any church (I am Catholic) to dictate to me my faith.   The human condition is a tragic one, we are not good, or just, or kind for the most part.  The family is first, then country and religion, but strangers, well we can find it easy to dehumanize anyone who is different than we are.  

People who just live their faith on a consistent level without too much fuss or probably the lucky ones in my opinion. 

I do think that most of us have a need for 'truth', so faith in God comes from the fact that it is 'true'.  Atheist, do the same thing....they are atheist because they believe it is true.   Unless one is a nihilist.  Of course, they do believe that nihilism is true, which is a contradiction.  

Faith-filled people make the mistake that they have all the answers, when in fact, the more we know, the deeper we go into faith, we slowly learn that we all have a bit of the agnostic in us. 

Peace
mark
 

Edited by markdohle
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30 minutes ago, Ogbin said:

 

 

I find it strange how people who choose not to Believe in any form of religion can somehow say that they have no Belief system. Whatever it is you choose to believe is a belief system, is it not? For if you believe that there is no God/Creator of any kind, then you are putting your trust in this idea, which at the end of the day is what you don't want it to be... A BELIEF SYSTEM.

Hi Ogbin,

To be honest I don't think about the things that I don't believe in a whole lot because there are other things to think about that are real and are actively doing like work.

I do participate in discussions here  and open to listening, discussing and teasing people the input on some subjects is indeed enlightening.:D One way or the other. :lol:

jmccr8

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30 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Do you want clarification? How about people who choose not to have a spiritual belief system. Does that work for you? Do I need to put a bow on it and some fancy ribbons? Dress it up and give it a party invitation? Make it seem all deep and meaningful, like a swan dive off into the short end of the pool.

I think to most it can be described as Agnostic Athiesm if that makes sense, most really don't care.

 

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55 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I think to most it can be described as Agnostic Athiesm if that makes sense, most really don't care.

 

I don't care. All I know is that no true discussion of god can be had. Due to no real definition of god. Nothing testable, nothing provable, nothing like that at all. I still say that people miss the actual point of faith. 

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4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I still say that people miss the actual point of faith. 

 

The actual point of faith, is to not miss it.

 

 

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