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joc

Neanderthals Created God

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joc

...and God said, Let there be light...

The creation story wasnt written by Neanderthals, but I think the stories handed down from generation to generation were original to these 'first' humans.

The actual story says that God created the Universe by saying, Let there be light.  But also that the sun wasn't created until the fourth day.  This story could only have originated from someone who did not understand that light  actually comes from the sun. How can it be that humans did not have the mental capability  to discern the difference between light and darkness?

It seems obvious that it had to have been those 'first' humans we refer to as Neanderthals. The dawning of intelligence...the beginning of the questioning Why.  

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Emma_Acid
56 minutes ago, joc said:

...and God said, Let there be light...

The creation story wasnt written by Neanderthals, but I think the stories handed down from generation to generation were original to these 'first' humans.

The actual story says that God created the Universe by saying, Let there be light.  But also that the sun wasn't created until the fourth day.  This story could only have originated from someone who did not understand that light  actually comes from the sun. How can it be that humans did not have the mental capability  to discern the difference between light and darkness?

It seems obvious that it had to have been those 'first' humans we refer to as Neanderthals. The dawning of intelligence...the beginning of the questioning Why.  

Except that the people who wrote the bible had no knowledge of other homo species?

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Jon the frog
Just now, Emma_Acid said:

Except that the people who wrote the bible had no knowledge of other homo species?

With all the translation from the source material...and the age of the source material,  who can tell what the bible was saying and who written it...

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Emma_Acid
2 minutes ago, Jon the frog said:

With all the translation from the source material...and the age of the source material,  who can tell what the bible was saying and who written it...

There is a pretty good understanding, academically, when the bible was written and in what order.

I'll say it again, there is nothing to link the bible to early humans.

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jmccr8
53 minutes ago, joc said:

...and God said, Let there be light...

The creation story wasnt written by Neanderthals, but I think the stories handed down from generation to generation were original to these 'first' humans.

The actual story says that God created the Universe by saying, Let there be light.  But also that the sun wasn't created until the fourth day.  This story could only have originated from someone who did not understand that light  actually comes from the sun. How can it be that humans did not have the mental capability  to discern the difference between light and darkness?

It seems obvious that it had to have been those 'first' humans we refer to as Neanderthals. The dawning of intelligence...the beginning of the questioning Why.  

Hi Joc,

This is something that I have thought for some time now that inter-actions between different groups that there may have been adaptations of religion and myths. I would include the Denisovans as well as having a possible influence. I will look and see if I can find a link later about words being included and existing in our languages that may have come from Neanderthals. If through these interactions there were transferred rs of words, genetics and tech then the possibility of myth, history and religion does not seem to me to be unacceptable.

jmccr8

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Emma_Acid
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Joc,

This is something that I have thought for some time now that inter-actions between different groups that there may have been adaptations of religion and myths. I would include the Denisovans as well as having a possible influence. I will look and see if I can find a link later about words being included and existing in our languages that may have come from Neanderthals. If through these interactions there were transferred rs of words, genetics and tech then the possibility of myth, history and religion does not seem to me to be unacceptable.

jmccr8

We don't know anything about early human groups' languages, let alone individual words. And their "religious beliefs" are similarly vague.

Where were you hoping on getting this hitherto unknown information from exactly?

Edited by Emma_Acid
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Emma_Acid

Just to expand on this - most of the proto languages that have been reconstructed go back to the Neolithic age, about 4500 BC. 

The neanderthals died out around 40-25,000 years ago. Absolutely no room for overlap in terms of knowledge of languages.

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danydandan

There are suggestions in a few burials in Spain that suggest they may have had religion. Or at least had burial rituals. The Loyoza Child discovery in particular is interesting.

But I think God is an over-reach.

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jmccr8
10 minutes ago, Emma_Acid said:

There is a pretty good understanding, academically, when the bible was written and in what order.

I'll say it again, there is nothing to link the bible to early humans.

Hi Emma,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the inspired the bible. The construct that the bible is based on is an amalgamation of other religious constructs that had likely been adapted from earlier forms, where did they start and by whom is an unknown. What can be seen is a pattern and progression through time and cultures so toe it does not seem to be unreasonable to consider that there my have been some influence from other homo groups.

jmccr8

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Emma_Acid
3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Emma,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the inspired the bible. The construct that the bible is based on is an amalgamation of other religious constructs that had likely been adapted from earlier forms, where did they start and by whom is an unknown. What can be seen is a pattern and progression through time and cultures so toe it does not seem to be unreasonable to consider that there my have been some influence from other homo groups.

jmccr8

I think the problem here is the sheer timescales you're talking about. The neanderthals and human overlap was way way way before even the first proto-biblical stories were written down. There is absolutely nothing to show that it goes back any further than the beginning of writing. 

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danydandan
5 minutes ago, Emma_Acid said:

I think the problem here is the sheer timescales you're talking about. The neanderthals and human overlap was way way way before even the first proto-biblical stories were written down. There is absolutely nothing to show that it goes back any further than the beginning of writing. 

But those biblical stories are based on older stories, that were inturn based on older stories, so there maybe an underlying link. But there will never be any evidence so it's kinda moot.

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jmccr8

Hi Emma,

I am not saying that they had a direct influence only that there was more than just genetic exchanges going on.I don't find it beyond potential that there may have been some incorporation of myths, history or god constructs but that is just my opinion. I may never know but that doesn't imply that I shouldn't ponder such possibilities.

jmccr8

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seanjo

The first creature that was intelligent enough to ask "what's it all mean?" invented God.

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Horta

Interesting idea. Though Neanderthals weren't the "first humans" but a human (sub) species contemporaneous with us. Whether they lacked intelligence compared to modern h sapiens doesn't seem clear. 

I think Julian Jaynes offers a great explanation even though, like most hypotheses, probably has aspects to it that are wrong or inaccurate. The idea that humans gained consciousness (as he defines it) with its "inner dialogue" and the ability to introspect, as something that arose and grew with complex metaphorical language. That in the past humans had a very different mentality and instead of our modern inner reasoning were therefore more likely, especially in times of stress or novel situations, to hear voices telling them what to do (basically command hallucinations). Not necessarily restricted only to auditory hallucinations (although likely to be far more prominent).

This broke down as metaphorical language grew in complexity and the relevant areas of the brain developed, hence the need for religion arose as people gradually experienced the voices/gods less and less. Thus having to rely on intermediaries such as witch doctors, prophets, doctrines etc. He seems to place a big shift in mentality this way somewhere around the end of the bronze age, based largely on literary comparisons (eg. differences in style between the iliad and odyssey and older /newer biblical texts). Though I think this might be the weaker part of his hypothesis (was probably a far more gradual process IMO). It's hard to overlook (IMO) differences in style to parts of the old testament, where god figures prominently and seems to speak to every man and his dog, to the new testament where he is almost entirely absent.

Though there are still vestiges of this process today. Even the most ardent rationalists have been know to hear a "voice" commanding them in certain dangerous or stressful situations. Schizophrenia itself affects about 1% of the population and religious experience itself is difficult to distinguish from the symptoms of schizophrenia. Hypnosis and trance would also be vestigeal.

There have also been preliterate tribes that have little of what we would normally associate with religion, with also seeming differences in culture/mentality that is also reflected in language. Although this is very controversial and goes against some firmly accepted academic beliefs. Such tribes have no interest in religions as much as directly experience voices, entities and trance directly. There is something peculiar about the way they experience and accept dreams that also seems consistent with Jaynes's ideas.

It's probably most controversial in that it means human consciousness (in the way we are different to other apes and mammals) is a reasonably recent ability that is learned socially/ culturally.

I see it more likely that god was a name given to the hallucinations of ancient man (still being done by modern man in many instances, only to far less extent).

 

 

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Emma_Acid
16 minutes ago, danydandan said:

But those biblical stories are based on older stories, that were inturn based on older stories, so there maybe an underlying link. But there will never be any evidence so it's kinda moot.

Again, the chronological distances are huge, so its not even a given that the stories they had 4000 BC are related to the ones from 40,000 BC - especially when you realise they didn't have any way of writing them down.

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Emma_Acid
54 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Emma,

I am not saying that they had a direct influence only that there was more than just genetic exchanges going on.I don't find it beyond potential that there may have been some incorporation of myths, history or god constructs but that is just my opinion. I may never know but that doesn't imply that I shouldn't ponder such possibilities.

jmccr8

But given we don't know their language, their beliefs or their "myths and gods" - isn't it all entirely academic?

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Horta
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Joc,

This is something that I have thought for some time now that inter-actions between different groups that there may have been adaptations of religion and myths. I would include the Denisovans as well as having a possible influence. I will look and see if I can find a link later about words being included and existing in our languages that may have come from Neanderthals. If through these interactions there were transferred rs of words, genetics and tech then the possibility of myth, history and religion does not seem to me to be unacceptable.

jmccr8

The idea sounds good, but I don't think that sort of info will ever be available (Neanderthal language). It might be possible to glean some things via what we know from anthropologists, and comparisons between them re things like art, artefacts and what might be gleaned of their cultures?

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Essan

So, not only were the Egyptians not clever enough to build the pyramids, now early Homo Sapiens weren't clever enoigh to invent God.  Them big butch Neanderthalis had to do it for 'em ...... :huh:

The Biblical just-so stories are, of course, amongst the most recent.   Largely derived from Mesopotamian tales.   But I don't think the Sumerians, amongst all the peoples of the Earth, managed to preserve very, very ancient stories for 10s of thousands of years that were totally forgotten by everyone else.   I think they made them up themselves.

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joc
2 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

Except that the people who wrote the bible had no knowledge of other homo species?

 Perhaps it is my misinformed belief or understanding that homo sapiens evolved from the Neanderthals.

Feel free to enlighten me Emma... Because I know you can... Are human beings direct descendants from them or were neanderthals all together a different species?

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Horta
14 minutes ago, Essan said:

So, not only were the Egyptians not clever enough to build the pyramids, now early Homo Sapiens weren't clever enoigh to invent God.  Them big butch Neanderthalis had to do it for 'em ...... :huh:

The Biblical just-so stories are, of course, amongst the most recent.   Largely derived from Mesopotamian tales.   But I don't think the Sumerians, amongst all the peoples of the Earth, managed to preserve very, very ancient stories for 10s of thousands of years that were totally forgotten by everyone else.   I think they made them up themselves.

I understood the op a little differently. He didn't seem to be saying that humans weren't smart enough, but the opposite. That they were unlikely to be silly enough to claim that god made light (separating it into day and night), before he created the sun. Therefore speculating that Neanderthals might have originated the idea.

Though I think h sapiens was plenty silly enough to arrive at the idea all on his own lol.

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Essan
2 minutes ago, Horta said:

I understood the op a little differently. He didn't seem to be saying that humans weren't smart enough, but the opposite. That they were unlikely to be silly enough to claim that god made light (separating it into day and night), before he created the sun. Therefore speculating that Neanderthals might have originated the idea.

Though I think h sapiens was plenty silly enough to arrive at the idea all on his own lol.

Aye, you may be right - I was only being flippant myself anyway :D 

But if H.Sapiens used to be too clever to believe in such nonsense, what went wrong?   :o

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Horta
1 minute ago, Essan said:

Aye, you may be right - I was only being flippant myself anyway :D 

But if H.Sapiens used to be too clever to believe in such nonsense, what went wrong?   :o

That's a very good point. 

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danydandan
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Emma_Acid said:

Again, the chronological distances are huge, so its not even a given that the stories they had 4000 BC are related to the ones from 40,000 BC - especially when you realise they didn't have any way of writing them down.

You'd be surprised of the power of word of mouth.

Celtic and Hindu myths share parallels that one would be inclined to assume they are from the same source and the geographic distances are big on that instance. Or else it's a big coincidence?

Edited by danydandan
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joc
1 hour ago, Horta said:

I understood the op a little differently. He didn't seem to be saying that humans weren't smart enough, but the opposite. That they were unlikely to be silly enough to claim that god made light (separating it into day and night), before he created the sun. Therefore speculating that Neanderthals might have originated the idea.

Though I think h sapiens was plenty silly enough to arrive at the idea all on his own lol.

 What I meant to imply was that the earliest humans... And I call them Neanderthals...had no understanding of the world around them. They would not have just logically concluded that the source of their  light was the sun. So as the neo-cortex evolved, questions.began to be asked.  Im really only speculating that the  concept originated with the Neanderthals.

I also tend to side  stongly with Emma on all things that I havent researched myself. So...perhaps therefore ...Neanderthals...is a stretch... nonetheless, I still think that the concept of creation came out if a time when humans were just beginning to ask questions.  And their answers to those questions formed  an understanding which over time morphed into the creation story.

 

.

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Stubbly_Dooright
4 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:
4 hours ago, Jon the frog said:

With all the translation from the source material...and the age of the source material,  who can tell what the bible was saying and who written it...

There is a pretty good understanding, academically, when the bible was written and in what order.

I'll say it again, there is nothing to link the bible to early humans.

I kind of always wondered about that. 

3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:
4 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

There is a pretty good understanding, academically, when the bible was written and in what order.

I'll say it again, there is nothing to link the bible to early humans.

Hi Emma,

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the inspired the bible. The construct that the bible is based on is an amalgamation of other religious constructs that had likely been adapted from earlier forms, where did they start and by whom is an unknown. What can be seen is a pattern and progression through time and cultures so toe it does not seem to be unreasonable to consider that there my have been some influence from other homo groups.

jmccr8

What about cultures and peoples with handed down vocal only history? Has that ever been an influence in written work, like the bible? 

1 hour ago, danydandan said:
2 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

Again, the chronological distances are huge, so its not even a given that the stories they had 4000 BC are related to the ones from 40,000 BC - especially when you realise they didn't have any way of writing them down.

You'd be surprised of the power of word of mouth.

Celtic and Hindu myths share parallels that one would be inclined to assume they are from the same source and the geographic distances are big on that instance. Or else it's a big coincidence?

What about the differences in varying societies's and culture''s religions? Why is some religions are believed over others? What does that say about the intelligence of each? 

Also, weren't there any cultures and societies, especially ancient and historic ones, that remained Atheist? 

18 minutes ago, joc said:
2 hours ago, Horta said:

I understood the op a little differently. He didn't seem to be saying that humans weren't smart enough, but the opposite. That they were unlikely to be silly enough to claim that god made light (separating it into day and night), before he created the sun. Therefore speculating that Neanderthals might have originated the idea.

Though I think h sapiens was plenty silly enough to arrive at the idea all on his own lol.

 What I meant to imply was that the earliest humans... And I call them Neanderthals...had no understanding of the world around them. They would not have just logically concluded that the source of their  light was the sun. So as the neo-cortex evolved, questions.began to be asked.  Im really only speculating that the  concept originated with the Neanderthals.

I also tend to side  stongly with Emma on all things that I havent researched myself. So...perhaps therefore ...Neanderthals...is a stretch... nonetheless, I still think that the concept of creation came out if a time when humans were just beginning to ask questions.  And their answers to those questions formed  an understanding which over time morphed into the creation story.

 

What if it was just too hard to translate to today's understanding? 

 

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