US Senator denied access

[Farmer77]

1 minute ago, and then said:

There has to be a limit or in the not too distant future, our children will have the same life that those from 3rd world countries have today.  This isn't rocket science, it's politics and it's damned near traitorous to our country.

Thats a bit of a strawman amigo. Of course there has to be a limit, of course there has to be borders and laws. That doesn't mean you have to be inhumane when enforcing them. 

 

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, Farmer77 said:

Actually they are,by folks like cartels and human traffickers,  that's why they flee and come to the US. 

That's what people are losing sight of. 

Even people who are legally seeking asylum under international law are having their children taken away from them, and they are being treated like criminals. 

[Aquila King]

5 minutes ago, and then said:

Yeah, it is a hard thing for the children to endure but let's not lose sight of the fact that no one is going to these countries and coercing or abducting any of these mothers and children.  THEY (the mothers) are making this choice. 

If US law was that thieves would have their hands chopped off, I wonder if you'd still be up for saying it's the thieves' who are 'choosing' to have their hands chopped off...

You're just blatantly ignoring the fact that these laws can be changed, and that there are actions that we can take to prevent such tragedies, rather than blaming the parents and kidnapping their children as a means of instilling fear...

[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Thats a bit of a strawman amigo. Of course there has to be a limit, of course there has to be borders and laws. That doesn't mean you have to be inhumane when enforcing them. 

 

It's also about what kind of country we want to be. 

Do we want to be a country that tears children away from their families and puts them in cages like dogs? 

I don't think people really want that. It's just that they're being kept from seeing it. 

[Farmer77]

4 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

rather than blaming the parents and kidnapping their children as a means of instilling fear...

You bring up an excellent point, this isn't the fist time we've heard talk from this administration about going after families to instill fear 

YES I recognize they are two wholly different topics but it does demonstrate that this is a strategy they think works. 

TRUMP: You have to 'take out' terrorists' families

Quote

When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families," he repeated. "They care about their lives, don't kid yourselves. But they say they don't care about their lives. You have to take out their families."

 

[Astra.]

8 minutes ago, and then said:

That is a GUESS on my part.  Yeah, it is a hard thing for the children to endure but let's not lose sight of the fact that no one is going to these countries and coercing or abducting any of these mothers and children.  THEY (the mothers) are making this choice.  If this tack causes a few thousand not to make the trip then it lessens the pressure on our country and facilities.  The bottom line is that America does not owe the world a place to live as well as free food and shelter any more than OZ does...

Well Australia certainly can't hold the shinning light of virtue. Especially in light of how many asylum seekers were held captive on some remote Pacific Islands for a fair duration of time. There were also children among these refugees, but as far as I'm aware they weren't separated from their parents. Not that I'm trying to justify anything....but I think no matter what the unfortunate circumstances are...kids are always better off staying close by with their parents / family. 

[ellapenella]

43 minutes ago, and then said:

Citation?  Link?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 28, 2018

The assertion that unaccompanied alien children (UAC) are ‘lost’ is completely false. This is a classic example of the adage ‘No good deed goes unpunished.’ The Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services, began voluntarily making calls in 2016 as a 30-day follow-up on the release of UAC to make sure that UAC and their sponsors did not require additional services. This additional step, which is not required and was not done previously, is now being used to confuse and spread misinformation.

These children are not ‘lost’; their sponsors—who are usually parents or family members and in all cases have been vetted for criminality and ability to provide for them—simply did not respond or could not be reached when this voluntary call was made. While there are many possible reasons for this, in many cases sponsors cannot be reached because 

hey themselves are illegal aliens and do not want to be reached by federal authorities. This is the core of this issue: In many cases, HHS has been put in the position of placing illegal aliens with the individuals who helped arrange for them to enter the country illegally. This makes the immediate crisis worse and creates a perverse incentive for further violation of federal immigration law.

“The tracking of UAC after release is just one of the recent headlines that focus on the symptoms of our broken immigration system while ignoring its fundamental flaws. President Trump’s administration has been calling on Congress to put an end to dangerous loopholes in U.S. immigration laws like the practice of “catch and release,” in which federal authorities release illegal immigrants to await hearings for which few show up. In the worst cases, these loopholes are being exploited by human traffickers and violent gangs like MS-13. Until these laws are fixed, the American taxpayer is paying the bill for costly programs that aggravate the problem and put children in dangerous situations.”

The following fact sheet - PDF contains additional information:

BORDER SECURITY LOOPHOLES DRIVE MASSIVE SURGE IN UNACCOMPANIED ALIEN CHILDREN

“The Unaccompanied Alien Children Program is being abused; it was never intended to be a foster care system with more than 10,000 children in custody at an immediate cost to the federal taxpayer of over one billion dollars per year.” - Steven Wagner, Acting Assistant Secretary for the Administration for Children and Families

SEPARATION OF FAMILIES AT THE BORDER: Congress’s inaction on border security has created perverse and dangerous incentives for illegal border crossings and child smuggling.

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2018/05/28/statement-hhs-deputy-secretary-unaccompanied-alien-children-program.html

[Aquila King]

6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

You bring up an excellent point, this isn't the fist time we've heard talk from this administration about going after families to instill fear 

YES I recognize they are two wholly different topics but it does demonstrate that this is a strategy they think works. 

TRUMP: You have to 'take out' terrorists' families

Calling for the slaughter of innocent women and children is quite possibly the biggest evil one could ever commit, yet this is brushed off as nothing by the millions who support him still...

I'm sorry folks, but this stuff just goes so far beyond policy positions, and enters the realm of bare-basic morality and human decency...

[GlitterRose]

25 minutes ago, and then said:

That is a GUESS on my part.  Yeah, it is a hard thing for the children to endure but let's not lose sight of the fact that no one is going to these countries and coercing or abducting any of these mothers and children.  THEY (the mothers) are making this choice.  If this tack causes a few thousand not to make the trip then it lessens the pressure on our country and facilities.  The bottom line is that America does not owe the world a place to live as well as free food and shelter any more than OZ does...

The "choice" they are making when seeking asylum is to flee for their lives or stand still and be killed. 

That's not really much of a choice, and I would not consider someone a criminal for trying to survive and trying to keep their children alive. 

[bison]

30 minutes ago, and then said:

That is a GUESS on my part.  Yeah, it is a hard thing for the children to endure but let's not lose sight of the fact that no one is going to these countries and coercing or abducting any of these mothers and children.  THEY (the mothers) are making this choice.  If this tack causes a few thousand not to make the trip then it lessens the pressure on our country and facilities.  The bottom line is that America does not owe the world a place to live as well as free food and shelter any more than OZ does...

Persons from other nations, seeking asylum in this country, have to make a very good case for their need to escape from dangerous conditions in their homelands. They have the legal right to apply for such asylum. They and their children should not be punished for doing so.

There are historical accounts of the United States refusing asylum to Jewish refugees from Germany and other nations occupied by the Nazis. I wonder if we have learned nothing from that horrible mistake.   

Edited June 5, 2018 by bison
removed duplicate word

[Michelle]

Are these same pictures of children in cages that are in fact four years old? It's difficult to tell these days. As far as I know, they have never had individual facilities/rooms for families. The husbands and wives are separated into men's and women's mass facilities. The children are housed by CPS or placed in temporary foster care until the paperwork is straightened out.

It's exactly the same for most homeless US citizens. It too dangerous to put them all together so there are different facilities for them. There are very few for families.

[GlitterRose]

6 minutes ago, bison said:

Persons from other nations, seeking asylum in this country, have to make a very good case for their need to escape from dangerous conditions in their homelands. They have the legal right to apply for such asylum. They and their children should not be punished for doing so.

There are historical accounts of the United States refusing asylum to Jewish refugees from Germany and other nations occupied by the Nazis. I wonder if we have learned nothing from that horrible mistake.   

I would have to say we have not learned much.

[GlitterRose]

6 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Are these same pictures of children in cages that are in fact four years old? It's difficult to tell these days. As far as I know, they have never had individual facilities/rooms for families. The husbands and wives are separated into men's and women's mass facilities. The children are housed by CPS or placed in temporary foster care until the paperwork is straightened out.

It's exactly the same for most homeless US citizens. It too dangerous to put them all together so there are different facilities for them. There are very few for families.

I don't believe I've posted any pictures of children in cages.

I posted a video where Jeff Merkely describes that he saw children being kept in cages at a particular processing facility in Texas. 

I doubt they allowed him to film in the processing center. 

[GlitterRose]

13 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
May 28, 2018

The assertion that unaccompanied alien children (UAC) are ‘lost’ is completely false. This is a classic example of the adage ‘No good deed goes unpunished.’ The Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services, began voluntarily making calls in 2016 as a 30-day follow-up on the release of UAC to make sure that UAC and their sponsors did not require additional services. This additional step, which is not required and was not done previously, is now being used to confuse and spread misinformation.

These children are not ‘lost’; their sponsors—who are usually parents or family members and in all cases have been vetted for criminality and ability to provide for them—simply did not respond or could not be reached when this voluntary call was made. While there are many possible reasons for this, in many cases sponsors cannot be reached because 

hey themselves are illegal aliens and do not want to be reached by federal authorities. This is the core of this issue: In many cases, HHS has been put in the position of placing illegal aliens with the individuals who helped arrange for them to enter the country illegally. This makes the immediate crisis worse and creates a perverse incentive for further violation of federal immigration law.

“The tracking of UAC after release is just one of the recent headlines that focus on the symptoms of our broken immigration system while ignoring its fundamental flaws. President Trump’s administration has been calling on Congress to put an end to dangerous loopholes in U.S. immigration laws like the practice of “catch and release,” in which federal authorities release illegal immigrants to await hearings for which few show up. In the worst cases, these loopholes are being exploited by human traffickers and violent gangs like MS-13. Until these laws are fixed, the American taxpayer is paying the bill for costly programs that aggravate the problem and put children in dangerous situations.”

The following fact sheet - PDF contains additional information:

BORDER SECURITY LOOPHOLES DRIVE MASSIVE SURGE IN UNACCOMPANIED ALIEN CHILDREN

“The Unaccompanied Alien Children Program is being abused; it was never intended to be a foster care system with more than 10,000 children in custody at an immediate cost to the federal taxpayer of over one billion dollars per year.” - Steven Wagner, Acting Assistant Secretary for the Administration for Children and Families

SEPARATION OF FAMILIES AT THE BORDER: Congress’s inaction on border security has created perverse and dangerous incentives for illegal border crossings and child smuggling.

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2018/05/28/statement-hhs-deputy-secretary-unaccompanied-alien-children-program.html

All I can get from this is that they don't know where the children are.

Of course, they're going to make an assumption that is least damaging to them.

Child smuggling is an interesting term.

I'm sure the mothers call it trying to keep their children alive.

Edited June 5, 2018 by ChaosRose

[Tatetopa]

52 minutes ago, and then said:

As usual, there's more to the story.  This is probably about pushing buttons and causing outrage.  The children aren't being enslaved or abused.  If they were placed in such a repurposed facility and the public were allowed free access, then we'd be hearing about how their privacy was being trashed.  No way to win with these people.  My guess is that part of the reason for the segregation is that once the word gets out down south that their children will be removed from them, a LOT of them may decide not to feel free to come and break our laws.  Those who come anyway will be given their due consideration for asylum.  If they're awarded asylum then they should be reunited with their kids

I see your point of course, it might be quite an effective deterrent. I am pretty sure you are correct, the children are not being enslaved.  I think it might be pretty traumatic for young ones to be forceably removed from their parents, is that close to abuse?.   I am concerned with the distress the children undergo. Are they accomplices to their parent's crime or victims that get pulled along?  Is it OK to cause suffering to children for their parent's crimes?

I know it is a tough proposition with no easy answer.

Is it button pushing?  Without a doubt. We live in the age of button pushing.  President Trump is an excellent button pusher, one of his greatest talents.  He uses his talent to cause us to fear foreigners and even each other.  That is not a plea from me for open borders or letting terrorists roam free, just a rational, non-panic approach to solving our complex problems..

[Michelle]

4 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

I don't believe I've posted any pictures of children in cages.

I posted a video where Jeff Merkely describes that he saw children being kept in cages at a particular processing facility in Texas. 

I doubt they allowed him to film in the processing center. 

I read the article but didn't watch the video. I assumed he didn't have anything if he was denied entry.

Like schools, they have security issues they have to deal with. They won't let just anyone come in without going through the proper channels.

[GlitterRose]

8 minutes ago, Michelle said:

I read the article but didn't watch the video. I assumed he didn't have anything if he was denied entry.

Like schools, they have security issues they have to deal with. They won't let just anyone come in without going through the proper channels.

He was only denied entry to the child holding facility at the old Walmart.

He was allowed access to a processing facility and some sort of mission run by a church. 

It was the processing facility in Texas where he saw the children in cages.

He also called and tried to set up a tour of the Walmart facility before coming down there, and he was denied.

This is what prompted his visit.

Also, he's not just anyone.

He's a US Senator.

If he can't get in and make sure everything's ok, then I don't know who would be able to. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by ChaosRose

[Michelle]

3 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

It was the processing facility in Texas where he saw the children in cages.

I wonder if they were playpens or cages. Almost every daycare in the US has "cages" for toddlers.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toddler+containment+ideas&rlz=1C1ZCEB_enUS789US789&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNs9f3z7vbAhVpw1kKHWD0BukQsxgIJg&biw=1242&bih=602

[Farmer77]

28 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I'm sorry folks, but this stuff just goes so far beyond policy positions, and enters the realm of bare-basic morality and human decency...

This is a truth I wish more could grasp. 

[GlitterRose]

14 minutes ago, Michelle said:

I wonder if they were playpens or cages. Almost every daycare in the US has "cages" for toddlers.

https://www.google.com/search?q=toddler+containment+ideas&rlz=1C1ZCEB_enUS789US789&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNs9f3z7vbAhVpw1kKHWD0BukQsxgIJg&biw=1242&bih=602

Well, if you actually watched the video, you wouldn't be asking that. 

He describes them in detail. 

He said they looked like dog cages. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by ChaosRose

[Astra.]

Iv'e seen mothers freak out and fret when they lose or become separated from their child in K-Mart or shopping malls.

I can't imagine how they'd feel when they lose their child (by having them deliberately taken away) in another country, and not even knowing where they are...or if they are even ok. It sounds pretty cruel to me. But that's only my opinion.

[GlitterRose]

4 minutes ago, Astra. said:

Iv'e seen mothers freak out and fret when they lose or become separated from their child in K-Mart or shopping malls.

I can't imagine how they'd feel when they lose their child (by having them deliberately taken away) in another country, and not even knowing where they are...or if they are even ok. It sounds pretty cruel to me. But that's only my opinion.

That ACLU lawyer tells a story of a mother hearing her child is in Chicago and she said she didn't even know what that was. 

[Astra.]

17 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

That ACLU lawyer tells a story of a mother hearing her child is in Chicago and she said she didn't even know what that was. 

That's shocking. It sounds like a total mess up. Who's bright idea was this ?....the way I see it, separating the children from the parents has / and is only going to cause more chaos and confusion. More children will possibly become even more 'lost' in the system...hence the already number of 'missing' kids ?....

What makes more sense (as you have already earlier touched on) these folk should have been processed in the normal way, with their children kept by their sides.

Surely this would come under being a 'human rights' thing' ? 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Astra.

[GlitterRose]

Just now, Astra. said:

That's shocking. It sounds like a total mess up. Who's bright idea was this ?....the way I see it, separating the children from the parents has / and is only going to cause more chaos and confusion. More children will possibly become even more 'lost' in the system...hence the already number of 'missing' kids ?....

What makes more sense (as you have already earlier touched on) these folk should have been processed in the normal way, with their children kept by their sides.

Surely this would come under being a 'humans rights' thing' ? 

Sessions announced this beauty. I'm sure it comes from on high. 

It's meant as a cruelty. It's supposed to deter people from coming here at all, even to seek asylum. 

It might very well work, but at what cost?

We sure might have to take down the Statue of Liberty. 

[Michelle]

Our local women's shelter is totally anonymous. You can't take a donation to them directly because it is never revealed by the staff where the facility is. If you want to donate you have to take it to a central location that distributes all the donations.

Sometime there are mitigating circumstances we aren't privy to. Not working with them directly, but hearing some of their plights, made me understand why this is necessary. I regularly donate clothes and they volunteer in the distribution center. I've gotten to know quite a few who have confided in me.

All this is by no means a new thing.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Michelle