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Phaeton80

15 Signs US MiddleClass Is Being Destroyed

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Phaeton80

Ran accross an interesting piece which paints a dire picture of the state of the lower and middle class in America. I would like to see any input that challenges these figures and / or the general premise.
 

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15 Signs That America's Middle Class Is Being Systematically Destroyed

If your family is really struggling right now, you are far from alone. 

I have been publishing The Economic Collapse Blog for more than eight years, and all throughout that time I have seen the middle class in America get smaller and smaller and smaller.  It is almost as if we are all playing a really bizarre game of musical chairs and every month someone pulls a few more chairs from the game.  Yes, there are some people that have gotten exceedingly wealthy over the past eight years, and most of that wealth is concentrated in places such as New York, Washington D.C. and San Francisco. 

But meanwhile, most of the rest of the country has been steadily getting poorer.

The following are 15 signs that the middle class in the United States is being systematically destroyed…

If we continue to do the same things, we will continue to get the same results, and right now we are in the process of absolutely destroying the greatest economic machine that the world has ever seen.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-08/15-signs-americas-middle-class-being-systematically-destroyed

 

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Aquila King

Economies under Republicans tend to have a boom-bust cycle. They deregulate Wall Street and give massive tax breaks to the mega-rich, which causes corporations to make tremendous amounts of money for a short time at the expense of working Americans. Then after a while, regular people run out of money to spend and the economy tanks as a result. These policies happened to cause the great depression, they caused the 2008 recession under Bush, and they'll happen eventually under Trump. It's just a matter of time.

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GlitterRose
4 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Economies under Republicans tend to have a boom-bust cycle. They deregulate Wall Street and give massive tax breaks to the mega-rich, which causes corporations to make tremendous amounts of money for a short time at the expense of working Americans. Then after a while, regular people run out of money to spend and the economy tanks as a result. These policies happened to cause the great depression, they caused the 2008 recession under Bush, and they'll happen eventually under Trump. It's just a matter of time.

Sad, but true.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

If that’s Republican economic policy, how come it wasn’t halted or reversed during the Obama administration?

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Aquila King
25 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

If that’s Republican economic policy, how come it wasn’t halted or reversed during the Obama administration?

The Obama administration (as well as Clinton administration before him) have been extremely centrist corporate-funded democrats, who are really just republican-lite in their policies. Obama may have slightly stabilized things for a bit after the crash of '08, but that's all he did. He had no real interest in actually helping the middle-class, merely helping his corporate donors. He simply didn't go all-in with helping them like Republicans tend to do.

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Phaeton80

Given the essential part of the article has been removed by an assisting mod, let me reiterate it here. Some shocking figures there any US national should be concerned about..
 

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The following are 15 signs that the middle class in the United States is being systematically destroyed…

#1 78 million Americans are participating in the “gig economy” because full-time jobs just don’t pay enough to make ends meet these days.

#2 In 2011, the average home price was 3.56 times the average yearly salary in the United States.  But by the time 2017 was finished, the average home price was 4.73 times the average yearly salary in the United States.

#3 In 1980, the average American worker’s debt was 1.96 times larger than his or her monthly salary.  Today, that number has ballooned to 5.00.

#4 In the United States today, 66 percent of all jobs pay less than 20 dollars an hour.

#5 102 million working age Americans do not have a job right now.  That number is higher than it was at any point during the last recession.

#6 Earnings for low-skill jobs have stayed very flat for the last 40 years.

#7 Americans have been spending more money than they make for 28 months in a row.

#8 In the United States today, the average young adult with student loan debt has a negative net worth.

#9 At this point, the average American household is nearly $140,000 in debt.

#10 Poverty rates in U.S. suburbs “have increased by 50 percent since 1990”.

#11 Almost 51 million U.S. households “can’t afford basics like rent and food”.

#12 The bottom 40 percent of all U.S. households bring home just 11.4 percent of all income.

#13 According to the Federal Reserve, 4 out of 10 Americans do not have enough money to cover an unexpected $400 expense without borrowing the money or selling something they own.

#14 22 percent of all Americans cannot pay all of their bills in a typical month.

#15 Today, U.S. households are collectively 13.15 trillion dollars in debt.  That is a new all-time record.

 

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Phaeton80

No Trump supporters who would 'correct' these figures.. or anyone else for that matter.. none at all? No 'America is the best of the West' types, nobody?

Or do we just dont care.. Like we care about people not kneeling down during the national anthem at any given sportsevent.. Or the Russian collusion thingy, where a few bots 'influenced' the election process (not the FBI reopening the case against the Clinton woman mere weeks before election, OR the gerrymandering methods being employed). Or the Stormy Daniels affair.. Or 'the evil illegal migrant threat'..

Holy tapdancing pony grabbing potus. These are third world figures for gods sake, and no one seems to give a single fck. :blink:

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Myles

Most of these are caused by (or greatly influenced by) poor decision making.

#1 78 million Americans are participating in the “gig economy” because full-time jobs just don’t pay enough to make ends meet these days. - People feel they need things they cannot afford.  

#2 In 2011, the average home price was 3.56 times the average yearly salary in the United States.  But by the time 2017 was finished, the average home price was 4.73 times the average yearly salary in the United States. - I still see couples buying more home than they can afford.   Recently had a young man start where I work.   He's making $65,000 a year.   His wife makes about the same.   They just bought their first house.   A $310,000 house.   

#3 In 1980, the average American worker’s debt was 1.96 times larger than his or her monthly salary.  Today, that number has ballooned to 5.00. - People think "debt" is something they should have.   Amazing how many people feel a car payment is a standard thing they should have.  

#4 In the United States today, 66 percent of all jobs pay less than 20 dollars an hour. - About what I expected.  

#5 102 million working age Americans do not have a job right now.  That number is higher than it was at any point during the last recession. - That sucks.

#6 Earnings for low-skill jobs have stayed very flat for the last 40 years. - Slow gradual increases are needed to bring minimum wage up a bit.   Not to $15/hr though.  

#7 Americans have been spending more money than they make for 28 months in a row. - People have stupid spending habits.  

#8 In the United States today, the average young adult with student loan debt has a negative net worth. - Not surprising.

#9 At this point, the average American household is nearly $140,000 in debt. - People spend their money poorly

#10 Poverty rates in U.S. suburbs “have increased by 50 percent since 1990”. - I'm sure there are many reasons why this is.  

#11 Almost 51 million U.S. households “can’t afford basics like rent and food”. - Lots of scenarios for this. 

#12 The bottom 40 percent of all U.S. households bring home just 11.4 percent of all income. - That's actually higher than I thought.

#13 According to the Federal Reserve, 4 out of 10 Americans do not have enough money to cover an unexpected $400 expense without borrowing the money or selling something they own. - Because most spend poorly

#14 22 percent of all Americans cannot pay all of their bills in a typical month. - Because most spend poorly

#15 Today, U.S. households are collectively 13.15 trillion dollars in debt.  That is a new all-time record. - Because most spend poorly

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Gromdor
8 minutes ago, Myles said:

Most of these are caused by (or greatly influenced by) poor decision making.

#1 78 million Americans are participating in the “gig economy” because full-time jobs just don’t pay enough to make ends meet these days. - People feel they need things they cannot afford.  

#2 In 2011, the average home price was 3.56 times the average yearly salary in the United States.  But by the time 2017 was finished, the average home price was 4.73 times the average yearly salary in the United States. - I still see couples buying more home than they can afford.   Recently had a young man start where I work.   He's making $65,000 a year.   His wife makes about the same.   They just bought their first house.   A $310,000 house.   

#3 In 1980, the average American worker’s debt was 1.96 times larger than his or her monthly salary.  Today, that number has ballooned to 5.00. - People think "debt" is something they should have.   Amazing how many people feel a car payment is a standard thing they should have.  

#4 In the United States today, 66 percent of all jobs pay less than 20 dollars an hour. - About what I expected.  

#5 102 million working age Americans do not have a job right now.  That number is higher than it was at any point during the last recession. - That sucks.

#6 Earnings for low-skill jobs have stayed very flat for the last 40 years. - Slow gradual increases are needed to bring minimum wage up a bit.   Not to $15/hr though.  

#7 Americans have been spending more money than they make for 28 months in a row. - People have stupid spending habits.  

#8 In the United States today, the average young adult with student loan debt has a negative net worth. - Not surprising.

#9 At this point, the average American household is nearly $140,000 in debt. - People spend their money poorly

#10 Poverty rates in U.S. suburbs “have increased by 50 percent since 1990”. - I'm sure there are many reasons why this is.  

#11 Almost 51 million U.S. households “can’t afford basics like rent and food”. - Lots of scenarios for this. 

#12 The bottom 40 percent of all U.S. households bring home just 11.4 percent of all income. - That's actually higher than I thought.

#13 According to the Federal Reserve, 4 out of 10 Americans do not have enough money to cover an unexpected $400 expense without borrowing the money or selling something they own. - Because most spend poorly

#14 22 percent of all Americans cannot pay all of their bills in a typical month. - Because most spend poorly

#15 Today, U.S. households are collectively 13.15 trillion dollars in debt.  That is a new all-time record. - Because most spend poorly

The American middle class is disappearing because Americans are getting stupider?

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Myles
47 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

The American middle class is disappearing because Americans are getting stupider?

Not entirely.   However, poor spending is a major factor.   It's crazy when you look at how people spend their money.  

I'm on the board of a local credit union and have to approve loans.   It almost makes me sick what people spend their money on.   A high percentage of car loans are taken by people who just paid off their previous car and they feel that it is time for a new car loan.  

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aztek
Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Myles said:

Not entirely.   However, poor spending is a major factor.   It's crazy when you look at how people spend their money.  

I'm on the board of a local credit union and have to approve loans.   It almost makes me sick what people spend their money on.   A high percentage of car loans are taken by people who just paid off their previous car and they feel that it is time for a new car loan.  

and that is a pretty dumb decision, they should lease, if they trade in after they paid cars off, lease payments half as big, new car every 2-3 years, no loans. my whole family is doing it for 15 years at least.

Edited by aztek
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Phaeton80
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Myles said:

Most of these are caused by (or greatly influenced by) poor decision making.

#1 78 million Americans are participating in the “gig economy” because full-time jobs just don’t pay enough to make ends meet these days. - People feel they need things they cannot afford.  

#5 102 million working age Americans do not have a job right now.  That number is higher than it was at any point during the last recession. - That sucks.

#12 The bottom 40 percent of all U.S. households bring home just 11.4 percent of all income. - That's actually higher than I thought.

 

 

By whom? The lower and middle classes, or the government? Id say both, but a lot of it seems to trickle down from decisions made in the highest echelons of your elected government. For example, there seems to be an integral problem with (acces to higher) education (forcing young Americans to join the military for any chance at 'education'), as well as the wages offered for low grade jobs (not indexed in line with inflation levels), as well as availability of medium skilled jobs (forcing people to apply for several 'low grade jobs' to make ends meet).

In addition, or as a result, wealth distribution is becoming even more disproportionate, even more unbalanced. India is the only nation topping the US in that department, even worse than oligarch Russia..

 

4116f6ba06a1eafdd02288bcfb499fbc-1024x65

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/report-wealth-inequality-worsened-historic-level-180301130726289.html

Edited by Phaeton80
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Phaeton80

Heres an interesting UN report concerning the topic at hand..

 

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Report of the Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights on his mission to the United States of America.

Overview
The United States is a land of stark contrasts. It is one of the world’s wealthiestsocieties, a global leader in many areas, and a land of unsurpassed technological and other forms of innovation. Its corporations are global trendsetters, its civil society is vibrant and sophisticated and its higher education system leads the world. But its immense wealth andexpertise stand in shocking contrast with the conditions in which vast numbers of its citizens live. About 40 million live in poverty, 18.5 million in extreme poverty, and 5.3 million live in Third World conditions of absolute poverty.

It has the highest youth poverty rate in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), and the highest infant mortality rates among comparable OECD States. Its citizens live shorter and sicker lives compared to those living in all other rich democracies, eradicable tropical diseases are increasingly prevalent, and it has the world’s highest incarceration rate, one of the lowest levels of voter registrations in among OECD countries and the highest obesity levels in the developed world. The United States has the highest rate of income inequality among Western countries. The $1.5 trillion in tax cuts in December 2017 overwhelmingly benefited the wealthy and worsened inequality. The consequences of neglecting poverty and promoting inequality are clear. The United States has one of the highest poverty and inequality levels among the OECD countries, and the Stanford Center on Inequality and Poverty ranks it 18th out of 21 wealthy countries in terms of labour markets, poverty rates, safety nets, wealth inequality and economic mobility. But in 2018 the United States had over 25 percent of the world’s 2,208 billionaires.

There is thus a dramatic contrast between the immense wealth of the few and the squalor and deprivation in which vast numbers of Americans exist. For almost five decades the overall policy response has been neglectful at best, but the policies pursued over the past year seem deliberately designed to remove basic protections from the poorest, punish those who are not in employment and make even basic health care into a privilege to be earned rather than a right of citizenship. The visit of the Special Rapporteur coincided with the dramatic change of directionin relevant United States policies. The new policies: (a) provide unprecedentedly high tax breaks and financial windfalls to the very wealthy and the largest corporations; (b) pay for these partly by reducing welfare benefits for the poor; (c) undertake a radical programme of environmental, health and safety deregulation that eliminates protections mainly benefiting the middle classes and the poor; (d)seek to add over 20 million poor and middle class persons to the ranks of those without health insurance; (e) restrict eligibility for many welfare benefits while increasing the obstacles required to be overcome by those eligible;(f) dramatically increase spending on defence, while rejecting requested improvements in key veterans' benefits; (g) do not provide adequate additional funding to address an opioid crisis that is decimating parts of the country; and (h) make no effort to tackle the structural racism that keeps a large percentage of non- Whites in poverty and near poverty.

Source: http://undocs.org/A/HRC/38/33/ADD.1

 

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Gromdor
47 minutes ago, aztek said:

and that is a pretty dumb decision, they should lease, if they trade in after they paid cars off, lease payments half as big, new car every 2-3 years, no loans. my whole family is doing it for 15 years at least.

My wife does that.  Cars these days have a built in life span.  So she buys a new one every five years.  It's the only loan we have so it doubles for maintaining her credit rating.  Leasing has mileage limits and care/condition issues.  I get the old car and drive it to work so we get ten years out of it.  Leasing two cars isn't cost effective for us.

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aztek
Posted (edited)

well it works for us pretty good, the way new cars build, they need costly maintenance and repairs, i do not want to deal with that, but within 3 years, they are pretty good, i never have to do anything but change oil. by the end of the lease  cars feel very different from when they were new. if i wanted to keep the car 10 years, i'd probably buy, but, they way they are build them now, 3 is plenty. let them be someone elses problems

Edited by aztek
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Aquila King
6 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Holy tapdancing pony grabbing potus. These are third world figures for gods sake, and no one seems to give a single fck. :blink:

Therein lies the real problem. Nobody cares. <_<

Facts, science, statistics, whatever. It doesn't matter. No one here cares about any of that.

Loyal adherence to preset political ideology takes precedence before all else. Thus, we're in the state we're in...

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Phaeton80

Sectarian, identity politics seems to be one of the main factors in this.

In other words; divide & rule, or rather.. divide & deconstruct / exploit / rob blind. I think the US has never been more divided, cut op in so many sectarian opposing groups, than at this very moment.. increasing rather than subsiding.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand"

 

 

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Dark_Grey
42 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Loyal adherence to preset political ideology takes precedence before all else. 

29 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Sectarian, identity politics seems to be one of the main factors in this.

So Leftists sank the economy? "Identity politics" was hardly ever talked about until Californian Academics incorporated it in to their lexicon. The DNC then came in swinging to back them up, creating a whole narrative about "evil Trump" and equating his supporters to "Nazis". The Left was tripping over themselves to sling insults and engage in name-calling, literally beating up anyone with a MAGA hat or at the very least, kicking them out of bars. They created a new enemy out of anyone who wasn't them. They can talk down to Republicans all they want but history will always remember who triggered the plague of identity politics. No one felt they had to choose a political side until the Left came in with their labels and intolerance. I hold them responsible for finally dividing the country irreparably.

Let's talk about Socialism for a minute. The real idea behind Socialism is to foster a culture of class-ism. Sure, it would be nice if we could all be on the same level but have you tried asking a billionaire to give up his wealth? Socialism is for us, the people, but not for them. You can't have a "serf and servant" culture with a middle class. California is the shining example of what they want the rest of America to look like: less than 30% of the middle class can afford a home, homelessness is rampant while the upper class are the only ones who can afford the insanely inflated house prices. California has the sixth largest economy in the world  yet the vast majority of it's inhabitants are struggling. Socialist policies have made that State in to a haven for the rich and a dead end for the poor. Extrapolate some of those policies to the rest of the country and it's no surprise the middle class has been choked out. Empower businesses, don't stifle them. Empower the individual, don't subdue them with handouts while lining your own pockets. 

Gentrification in California
Wealth Inequality in California

Quote

Corporate profits at California-based transnational corporations such as Apple, Facebook and Google are hitting record highs.

California housing prices from La Jolla to Berkeley along the Pacific Coast can top $1,000 a square foot.

It seems as if all of China is willing to pay premium prices to get their children degreed at Caltech, Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA or USC.

Yet California — after raising its top income tax rate to 13.3 percent and receiving record revenuesis still facing a budget deficit of more than $1 billion. There is a much more foreboding state crisis of unfunded liabilities and pension obligations of nearly $1 trillion.

Soon, new gas tax hikes, on top of green mandates, might make California gas the most expensive in the nation, despite the state’s huge reserves of untapped oil.

Where does the money go, given that the state’s schools and infrastructure rank among America’s worst in national surveys?

Maybe California should secede so we can watch "Venezuela 2.0" happen in real time?

Both Dems and Repubs have enacted policies at some point that hurt the middle class and protect the rich. Corruption (the rich shaping policy to help the rich,) is the core issue here. Stealing from pension funds, artificially creating bubbles in the economy, insider trading, Congress making rules for Congress (lol), the "two-party system" lie...the list goes on and on. The ONLY way I see the corruption being reversed is to keep a very trustworthy, noble person as POTUS for at least 20 years with a whole new Justice Department, FBI, Supreme Court, Senate and Congress comprised of vetted, new faces all willing to work toward the same goal of restoring balance and prosperity to Americans.

In other words, we are royally stuffed. :mellow: The empire is dying a slow, painful death and the rats keeping running off with pieces of it.

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Myles
2 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

So Leftists sank the economy? "Identity politics" was hardly ever talked about until Californian Academics incorporated it in to their lexicon. The DNC then came in swinging to back them up, creating a whole narrative about "evil Trump" and equating his supporters to "Nazis". The Left was tripping over themselves to sling insults and engage in name-calling, literally beating up anyone with a MAGA hat or at the very least, kicking them out of bars. They created a new enemy out of anyone who wasn't them. They can talk down to Republicans all they want but history will always remember who triggered the plague of identity politics. No one felt they had to choose a political side until the Left came in with their labels and intolerance. I hold them responsible for finally dividing the country irreparably.

Let's talk about Socialism for a minute. The real idea behind Socialism is to foster a culture of class-ism. Sure, it would be nice if we could all be on the same level but have you tried asking a billionaire to give up his wealth? Socialism is for us, the people, but not for them. You can't have a "serf and servant" culture with a middle class. California is the shining example of what they want the rest of America to look like: less than 30% of the middle class can afford a home, homelessness is rampant while the upper class are the only ones who can afford the insanely inflated house prices. California has the sixth largest economy in the world  yet the vast majority of it's inhabitants are struggling. Socialist policies have made that State in to a haven for the rich and a dead end for the poor. Extrapolate some of those policies to the rest of the country and it's no surprise the middle class has been choked out. Empower businesses, don't stifle them. Empower the individual, don't subdue them with handouts while lining your own pockets. 

 

That is not so different than asking anyone.    I give to several organizations, but  I wouldn't say I give as much as I can.   However, proportionally, I give more than nearly all very wealthy people.   Robert De Niro  has a net worth of over $300 million.   I cannot find a site that states that he gives generously.  

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Dark_Grey
18 minutes ago, Myles said:

That is not so different than asking anyone.    I give to several organizations, but  I wouldn't say I give as much as I can.   However, proportionally, I give more than nearly all very wealthy people.   Robert De Niro  has a net worth of over $300 million.   I cannot find a site that states that he gives generously.  

You don't get rich by giving your money away...those that have vast wealth tend to do what they can to keep it. There are exceptions like billionaire Warren Buffet but he's just that: an exception. Ironic how the wealthy want to live in Cali but they want "postcard Cali", not homeless, druggie Cali. They want to keep the working class scum out of Beverly Hills. Hence all the wealth being concentrated in small areas while the State debt skyrockets. It practically mirrors what's happening at the national level.

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Aquila King
27 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

So Leftists sank the economy? "Identity politics" was hardly ever talked about until Californian Academics incorporated it in to their lexicon. The DNC then came in swinging to back them up, creating a whole narrative about "evil Trump" and equating his supporters to "Nazis". The Left was tripping over themselves to sling insults and engage in name-calling, literally beating up anyone with a MAGA hat or at the very least, kicking them out of bars. They created a new enemy out of anyone who wasn't them. They can talk down to Republicans all they want but history will always remember who triggered the plague of identity politics. No one felt they had to choose a political side until the Left came in with their labels and intolerance. I hold them responsible for finally dividing the country irreparably.

So basically: "The other side is to blame for dividing the country!!"

Thus the division continues...

29 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

Let's talk about Socialism for a minute. The real idea behind Socialism is to foster a culture of class-ism. Sure, it would be nice if we could all be on the same level but have you tried asking a billionaire to give up his wealth? Socialism is for us, the people, but not for them. You can't have a "serf and servant" culture with a middle class. California is the shining example of what they want the rest of America to look like: less than 30% of the middle class can afford a home, homelessness is rampant while the upper class are the only ones who can afford the insanely inflated house prices. California has the sixth largest economy in the world  yet the vast majority of it's inhabitants are struggling. Socialist policies have made that State in to a haven for the rich and a dead end for the poor. Extrapolate some of those policies to the rest of the country and it's no surprise the middle class has been choked out. Empower businesses, don't stifle them. Empower the individual, don't subdue them with handouts while lining your own pockets. 

Gentrification in California
Wealth Inequality in California

Imma ignore the California thing, cause I've already linked and cited source after source and made argument after argument for why basically all of that is total horse s**t. Again, as I stated above, it doesn't matter. Loyal adherence to preset political ideology is all that matters in this new political climate, not real-world facts and figures. No matter how many times I present the facts, it's all about ignoring the facts and continuing to push the narrative.

Anyway, in response to the first few sentences here... No, socialism (at least not the socialism that I advocate for) does not want a single-class society. I'm not against rich people being rich. Hell, I'm not against capitalism. I'm simply in favor of a few social programs that help to insure that those on the bottom have an equal opportunity to rise to the top. That's it.

I'm getting beyond sick and tired of people misrepresenting my position as a way of 'refuting it.' That's called a Straw Man Fallacy. Google it. It's the oldest trick in the book.

36 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

Maybe California should secede so we can watch "Venezuela 2.0" happen in real time?

Wow. The whole "butwhataboutVenezuela!?!?" line again. I'm so shocked. :td: Not like I haven't already refuted that argument over and over and over and over and over again a million times before. <_<

I mean honestly, why should I even waste my time refuting this stuff repeatedly if you're just gonna ignore it and say it again anyway?...

40 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

Both Dems and Repubs have enacted policies at some point that hurt the middle class and protect the rich. Corruption (the rich shaping policy to help the rich,) is the core issue here. Stealing from pension funds, artificially creating bubbles in the economy, insider trading, Congress making rules for Congress (lol), the "two-party system" lie...the list goes on and on. The ONLY way I see the corruption being reversed is to keep a very trustworthy, noble person as POTUS for at least 20 years with a whole new Justice Department, FBI, Supreme Court, Senate and Congress comprised of vetted, new faces all willing to work toward the same goal of restoring balance and prosperity to Americans.

The reason why both dems and reps screw us over is because both are bought by corporations who almost single-handedly finance their elections. We have legalized bribery going on. Politicians represent corporations, not the American people. We effectively live in an Oligarchy.

THAT is why we're being screwed over. It's not because of illegal immigrants, or Muslims, or dose ebil libruls; it's because of the rich b******* who are buying politicians to represent them and not you.

44 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

In other words, we are royally stuffed. :mellow: The empire is dying a slow, painful death and the rats keeping running off with pieces of it.

So long as we remain this divided, then yes, the American Empire is soon to fall.

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Dark_Grey
1 minute ago, Aquila King said:

So basically: "The other side is to blame for dividing the country!!"Thus the division continues...

Yep. Leftists are to blame for the division. It's so obvious who came up with the "us vs. them" narrative leading up to Trump's election. Why else would very progressive personalities like Jordan Peterson be labeled "alt-right" when they only differ on specific talking points? If you have an argument to support the Right causing the division, I'm all ears. 

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Imma ignore the California thing, cause I've already linked and cited source after source and made argument after argument for why basically all of that is total horse s**t. Again, as I stated above, it doesn't matter. Loyal adherence to preset political ideology is all that matters in this new political climate, not real-world facts and figures. No matter how many times I present the facts, it's all about ignoring the facts and continuing to push the narrative.Anyway, in response to the first few sentences here...

So California is not on the way down? Interesting cause that's the first time I've ever hear that disputed. It's practically unanimously agreed that California is a failed experiment in Socialism-lite.

Forbes -The Top 4 Reason California is Unsustainable (2018)
NYT - "Boom and GlooM", an Economic Warning for California (2018)
Investors.com - California: Golden no More

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California 2.0 has seen the unfortunate fall into the disastrous consequences of big-government statism, corrupt one-party politics, and failed statesmanship.  Middle-class families continue to flee from the highest tax rates in the country.

 

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No, socialism (at least not the socialism that I advocate for) does not want a single-class society. I'm not against rich people being rich. Hell, I'm not against capitalism. I'm simply in favor of a few social programs that help to insure that those on the bottom have an equal opportunity to rise to the top. That's it.

There is nothing wrong with Social Programs but they can have the side effect of creating dependence. Not everyone who accepts handouts is willing to work. Trump made big changes to the welfare system and what do you know? Unemployment among the black community, the biggest receivers of welfare, dropped dramatically.

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I'm getting beyond sick and tired of people misrepresenting my position as a way of 'refuting it.' That's called a Straw Man Fallacy. Google it. It's the oldest trick in the book.

Wow. The whole "butwhataboutVenezuela!?!?" line again. I'm so shocked. :td: Not like I haven't already refuted that argument over and over and over and over and over again a million times before. <_<I mean honestly, why should I even waste my time refuting this stuff repeatedly if you're just gonna ignore it and say it again anyway?...

What's there to refute about Venezuela? Socialist policies caused it's collapse and that doesn't seem to be challenged. It should serve as a modern day warning.

WashExaminer - In Venezuela, the destructive force of socialism is at work
DailyWire - 5 Ways Socialism Turned Venezuela Into A Trash Heap

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The reason why both dems and reps screw us over is because both are bought by corporations who almost single-handedly finance their elections. We have legalized bribery going on. Politicians represent corporations, not the American people. We effectively live in an Oligarchy.

Yes, yes and yes.

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It's not because of illegal immigrants,

Partly, it is. Illegals are expensive to deal with and who pays for those expenses?

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or Muslims

Probably not

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or dose ebil libruls;

They are the party of handouts and social programs to minorities while failing to foster the real labor force, the middle class. Ergo, they create a s**t ton of debt while reducing the prosperity of the people who really pay for it. Paying criminals not to commit crimes? Is that really wise? C'mon. I'm not saying Repubs don't have a hand in this situation but the most insane policies always come from the Left who think with their feelings and not their heads.

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it's because of the rich b******* who are buying politicians to represent them and not you.

Corruption, no limit donations, lobbyists, etc. Lots of legal holes in the dam that need to be plugged. 

Remember that not everyone has seen/read all your arguments yet. I know it's tiring for you to rehash the same points but try and muster the energy, if you can spare it. Trust me when I say that as a Conservative, we have to do way more legwork to prove a point. You get used to it.

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Myles
29 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

Y

 

Corruption, no limit donations, lobbyists, etc. Lots of legal holes in the dam that need to be plugged. 

 

I'd add term limits.   Adding unrelated items (riders) to any bill. 

Get rid of these and we may stand a chance.  

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Phaeton80
2 hours ago, Aquila King said:

 

The reason why both dems and reps screw us over is because both are bought by corporations who almost single-handedly finance their elections. We have legalized bribery going on. Politicians represent corporations, not the American people. We effectively live in an Oligarchy.

THAT is why we're being screwed over. It's not because of illegal immigrants, or Muslims, or dose ebil libruls; it's because of the rich b******* who are buying politicians to represent them and not you.

So long as we remain this divided, then yes, the American Empire is soon to fall.

 

Thats it..

Thats pretty much the whole issue summarized in a few sentences.

 

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Kismit
7 hours ago, Myles said:

Not entirely.   However, poor spending is a major factor.   It's crazy when you look at how people spend their money.  

I'm on the board of a local credit union and have to approve loans.   It almost makes me sick what people spend their money on.   A high percentage of car loans are taken by people who just paid off their previous car and they feel that it is time for a new car loan.  

People often don't spend their money well, cars are the worst investment.  I hold quite a healthy positive financial position after debt. And drive a $350.00 car. Yes that decimal point is in the correct place.

Most people do not even know what thier personal financial position is. Few think of the future or way up if a dollar is being used for growth or loss. There are only so many years to live the life you want, I hate watching people misuse it.

Having said all of this, after watching America's most recent tax plan. I do fear that in 7 years time the divide between richer and poorer will be worse. And that the term middle class poverty will be in greater use.

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