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ExpandMyMind

The much-hyped IG report backfires

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Michelle
1 minute ago, Gromdor said:

Ah, so you think the IG is part of the deep state and not to be trusted too, then?

Don't try and twist my words. Did I say anything about a deep state? The more power people have the more likely they are to abuse it...fact period.

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CrimsonKing
1 minute ago, and then said:

The slight problem with all that is that we don't have as patient or patriotic a population as we did during most of that time, do we? The average agent on the street may have to start watching his back a little more soon enough.

Sorry dude,i got the last part of your post,but Hoover was one of the most absolute possessed disturbed busy bodies...to put it nicely the world has ever known!...his legacy is filled with disturbing anti-democratic sickness to the point of of excessive fever and violent "stuff" outta both ends...

I'm not sure if i read ya right,if not my apologies...

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Gromdor
Just now, Michelle said:

Don't try and twist my words. Did I say anything about a deep state? The more power people have the more likely they are to abuse it...fact period.

Considering the IG is separate from the FBI and is literally the people who police the FBI, how else am I to take your words?  It's not a single person but a whole department. 

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Michelle
3 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Considering the IG is separate from the FBI and is literally the people who police the FBI, how else am I to take your words?  It's not a single person but a whole department. 

It's not a stretch considering the aforementioned Hoover and his department.

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and then
10 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Considering the IG is separate from the FBI and is literally the people who police the FBI, how else am I to take your words?  It's not a single person but a whole department. 

What I see is another government agency doing its best to protect the credibility of one of our "most trustworthy" agencies.  Frankly, I think the IG was placed in an unwinnable position.  If he doesn't shade things with the patina of respectability then he helps to destroy what little respect is left to that agency.  It doesn't help much.  It just adds to the foul reek coming from Washington these days.  I suspect that your equanimity over this report would be a little frayed if it had relayed a laundry list of offenses against the Obama FBI leadership.  

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Gromdor
1 minute ago, and then said:

What I see is another government agency doing its best to protect the credibility of one of our "most trustworthy" agencies.  Frankly, I think the IG was placed in an unwinnable position.  If he doesn't shade things with the patina of respectability then he helps to destroy what little respect is left to that agency.  It doesn't help much.  It just adds to the foul reek coming from Washington these days.  I suspect that your equanimity over this report would be a little frayed if it had relayed a laundry list of offenses against the Obama FBI leadership.  

A good chunk of this report happened under Obama's leadership.  And the report does not portray the FBI in a particularly glowing light.  The only positive for them is that it said they did their job. 

Just out of curiosity, did you read it?  What portions do you think they covered up?  It seemed pretty thorough to me.  An instance of framing, lying, or what not on the FBI or IG's part would go a long way to convince me.

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Uncle Sam

If you would like to read the IG report, I will post a link below. Warning: there is 568 pages involved in this document. Right now all the news that is being pushed out might not contain the full scope of what is contained within the document.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2018/06/14/read-ig-report-on-hillary-clinton-email-case.html

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Uncle Sam

Here is some text messages that been exchanged. I am a little halfway through the documents...

Quote

Agent 1 sent instant messages in the initial months of the Midyear investigation commenting on the investigation. Some of these messages are listed below, along with the date sent and the recipient.

  • September 2nd, 2015. Agent 1 to Agent 5: “Have a really bad feeling about this… this case… situation… No control and horrible decisions and chaos on the most meaningless things I’ve ever done with people acting like ****ing 9/11.”
  • September 25th, 2015. Agent 1 to an FBI employee: “I don’t care about it. I think its continued waste of resources and time and focus…” (Regarding Investigation)
  • October 26, 2015. Agent 1 to Agent 5: “It’s just so obvious how pointless this exercise is. And everyone is so into it…”

We asked Agent 1 about these messages. Agent 1 told us that prior to Midyear he had worked on other high-profile cases and part of the sentiment he expressed in these messages was a reluctance to be involved in another high-profile investigation. Agent 1 stated that he knew from prior experience that decisions in such investigation were typically made at higher levels. Agent 1 described the comment about the investigation being “meaningless” as “a little exaggerated” and explained that “maybe the intense scrutiny didn’t seem commensurate to what we 146 had to do.” Agent 1 explained, “The FBI absolutely needs to investigate why classified information is in a place where it should not be. I just, it would, this is more probably an emotional comment on how scrutinized and how focused and how continued, there’s a continued focus on it to this day.” 

 Agent 1 also sent numerous messages that referenced “political”  considerations in the context of the Midyear investigation. We list examples of these messages below with the date sent and the content of the message along with context where necessary. Unless otherwise identified, the recipients of the messages are FBI employees not involved in the Midyear investigation.

  • January 15th, 2016. “My guess is March. Doesn’t matter what we have, political winds will want to be beat primary.”
  • January 28th, 2016: “…The case is the same is all of them. A lot of the work and bull**** for a political exercise.”
  • February 1st, 2016: “… Its primary season – so we’re being dictated to now…”
  • February 1st, 2016: “This is the biggest political **** show of them all. No substance. Up at dawn – pride swallowing siege. No Headset and hermetically (Meaning: Completely Airtight or Protected from Influence) sealed in SIOC (Strategic Information & Operations).”
  • February 2nd, 2016: “Going well… Busy, and sometimes I feel for naught (Political exercise), but I feel good…)
  • May 6th, 2016. Agent 1 to Agent 5: “Pretty bad news today… someone has breathed some political urgency into this… Everyday DD brief and once a week D brief from now on.”

We asked Agent 1 about these messages. Agent 1 stated that he hoped these messages “would just directly reflect upon me and not anybody else that worked the case.” He explained that these messages simply reflect the fact that he wanted to work on something besides Midyear. We asked Agent 1 whether these messages indicated that the Midyear investigation was simply an exercise in “going through the motions.” Agent 1 responded, “No. I think this investigation needed to be worked.” He later continued, “I think if classified information is found in a place that it shouldn’t be, there should be an investigation.” Agent 1 added that he felt the scrutiny and attention that Midyear received was not “commensurate” with the nature of the violation the team was investigating. As to the messages about timing, Agent 1 told us that at some point in the investigation the “pace” increased and, although the team was never given a “finish by” date, there was “a sense that things were picking up.”

  • February 9th, 2016. Agent 5 to Agent 1: “Yeah, I hear you. You guys have a ****ty task, in a ****ty environment. To look for something conjured in a place where you can’t find it, for a case that doesn’t matter and is predestined. All you ask for is acknowledgement of that and clear guidance. But No. DOJ comes in there every once in awhile and takes a wishy-washy, political cowardice stance. Salt meets wound. That is the environment love. Can’t sugar coat it. Now, what? What can you do? What can you control? Work hard, do the best you can, and try to keep others motivated.”

Here is some more texts regarding Trump.

Quote

After the letter was sent by the FBI to Congress on October 28, Agent 1 sent a series of instant messages to other FBI employees about the reactivation of the Midyear investigation. Beginning at 1:46 p.m., Agent 1 exchanged the following messages with Agent 5. The sender of each message is identified after the timestamp.

  • 1:46 p.m., Agent 5 : “jesus christ… Trump: Glad FBI is fixing ‘horrible mistake’ on clinton emails… for ****’s sake.” 
  • 1:47 p.m., Agent 5: “the ****’s sake part was me, the rest was Trump.” 
  • 1:49 p.m., Agent 1: “Not sure if Trump or the fifth floor is worse…” 
  • 1:49 p.m., Agent 5: “I’m so sick of both…” 
  • 1:50 p.m., Agent 5: “+o( TRUMP” 
  • 1:50 p.m., Agent 5: “+o( Fifth floor” 
  • 1:50 p.m., Agent 5: “+o( FBI” 
  • 1:50 p.m., Agent 5: “+o( Average American public”

Here is some text regarding an "Friend" reaching out regarding midyear investigation.

Quote

On November 1, Agent 1 and an FBI agent uninvolved in the Midyear investigation exchanged the following instant messages on the FBI’s computer network. The sender of each message is identified after the timestamp.

  • 8:31 a.m., Uninvolved Agent: “A horrible **** sandwich. Still no [grand jury] I imagine. So, you find Huma lied; BFD. No one at DOJ is going to prosecute.” 
  • 8:33 a.m., Agent 1: “Rog – no one is going to pros[ecute] even if we find unique classified. [Grand jury] story was inaccurate – 50+ GJ subpoenas and 2703d issued,” 
  • 8:37 a.m., Agent 1: “...We only had several warrants and a lot of consent searches on media. I would have liked to use warrants for all because the consent agreements had limited scope. Reasonable scope, but I don’t like to stand on the lawn and have the occupants throw out the evidence to us.” 

Here is some more texts by Strzok and Page...
 

Quote

 In this section, we highlight examples of text messages of a political nature commenting on Trump and Clinton. We include explanations provided by Page and Strzok about their use of FBI-issued phones in general and their use of FBI-issued phones for political discussions. The sender of each text message is identified after the date.

  • August 16, 2015, Strzok: “[Bernie Sanders is] an idiot like Trump. Figure they cancel each other out.”
  • February 12, 2016, Page: “I’m no prude, but I’m really appalled by this. So you dont have to go looking (in case you hadn’t heard),Trump called him the p-word. The man has no dignity or class. He simply cannot be president. With a Slur for Ted Cruz, Donald Trump Further Splits Voters http://nyti.ms/1XoICkO.” 
  • February 12, 2016, Strzok: “Oh, [Trump’s] abysmal. I keep hoping the charade will end and people will just dump him. The problem, then, is Rubio will likely lose to Cruz. The Republican party is in utter shambles. When was the last competitive ticket they offered?” 
  • March 3, 2016, Page: “God trump is a loathsome human.” 
  • March 3, 2016, Strzok: “Omg [Trump’s] an idiot.
  • March 3, 2016, Page: “He’s awful.” 
  • March 3, 2016, Strzok: “God Hillary should win 100,000,0000.” 
  • March 3, 2016, Page:  “Also did you hear [Trump] make a comment about the size of his d*ck earlier? This man cannot be president.” 
  • March 12, 2016: Page forwarded an article about a “far right” candidate in Texas, stating, “[W]hat the f is wrong with people? ”Strzok replied, “That Texas article is depressing as hell. But answers how we could end up with President trump.” 
  • March 16, 2016, Page:  “I cannot believe Donald Trump is likely to be an actual, serious candidate for president.” 
  • June 11, 2016, Strzok: “They fully deserve to go, and demonstrate the absolute bigoted nonsense of Trump.” 
  • July 18, 2016, Page:  “…Donald Trump is an enormous d*uche.” 
  • July 19, 2016, Page: “Trump barely spoke, but the first thing out of his mouth was  ‘we’re going to win soooo big.’ The whole thing is like living in a bad dream.” 
  • July 21, 2016, Strzok: “Trump is a disaster. Ihave no idea how destabilizing his Presidency would be.” 
  • August 26, 2016, Strzok: “Just went to a southern Virginia Walmart. I could SMELL the Trump support....” 
  • September 26, 2016, Page: Page sent an article to Strzok entitled, “Why Donald Trump Should Not Be President,” stating, “Did you read this? It’s scathing. And I’m scared.” 
  • October 19, 2016, Strzok: “I am riled up. Trump is a ****ing idiot, is unable to provide a coherent answer.” 
  • November 3, 2016, Page: “The nyt probability numbers are dropping every day. I’m scared for our organization.” 
  • November 3, 2016, Strzok: “[Jill] Stein and moron [Gary] Johnson are F’ing everything up, too.” 
  • November 7, 2016, Strzok: Referencing an article entitled “A victory by Mr. Trump remains possible,” Strzok stated, “OMG THIS IS****ING TERRIFYING.” 
  • November 13, 2016, Page: “I bought all the president’s men. Figure I needed to brush up on watergate.”

Here is regarding Russian investigation and Strzok planning on joining the investigation.

Quote

May 18, 2017: Mueller was appointed Special Counsel on May 17, 2017.The next day Strzok and Page exchanged text messages in a discussion of whether Strzok should join the Special Counsel’s investigation. Strzok wrote: “For me, and this case, I personally have a sense of unfinished business. I unleashed it with MYE. Now I need to fix it and finish it.” Later in the same exchange, Strzok, apparently while weighing his career options, made this comparison: “Who gives a ****, one more A[ssistant] D[irector]...[versus] [a]n investigation leading to impeachment?” Later in this exchange, Strzok stated, “you and I both know the odds are nothing. If I thought it was likely I’d be there no question. I hesitate in part because of my gut sense and concern there’s no big there there.”

Some FBI employee's text messages regarding Trump election.

Quote
  • 13:44:42, to FBI Employee 1: “I mean, I never really liked the Republic anyway.” 
  • 13:44:52, to FBI Employee 2: “I mean, I never really liked the Republic anyway.” 
  • 14:01:52, to FBI Employee 3: “As I have initiated the destruction of the republic.... Would you be so kind as to have a coffee with me this afternoon?” 
  • 15:28:50, to FBI Employee 4: “I’m clinging to small pockets of happiness in the dark time of the Republic’s destruction” 
  • 11:15:24, FBI Employee: “But no I absolutely do not believe the FBI had any part.” 
  •  11:15:33, FBI Attorney 2: “So, who knows if that breaks to him what he is going to do.”

Attorney and Employee conversation about Trump's election.

Quote
  • 09:38:14, FBI Attorney 2: “I am numb.” 
  • 09:55:35, FBI Employee: “I can’t stop crying.” 
  • 10:00:13, FBI Attorney 2: “That makes me even more sad.” 
  • 10:43:20, FBI Employee: “Like, what happened?” 
  • 10:43:37, FBI Employee: “You promised me this wouldn’t happen. YOU PROMISED.” 
  • 10:43:43, FBI Employee: Okay, that might have been a lie…”
  •  10:43:46, FBI Employee: “I’m very upset.” 
  • 10:43:47, FBI Employee: “ha ha” 
  • 10:51:48, FBI Attorney 2: “I am so stressed about what I could have done differently.” 
  • 10:54:29, FBI Employee: “Don’t stress. None of that mattered.” 
  • 10:54:31, FBI Employee: “The FBI’s influence.” 
  • 10:59:36, FBI Attorney 2: “I don’t know. We broke the momentum.” 
  • 11:00:03, FBI Employee: “That is not so.” 
  • 11:02:22, FBI Employee: “All the people who were initially voting for her would not, and were not, swayed by any decision the FBI put out. Trump’s supporters are all poor to middle class, uneducated, lazy POS that think he will magically grant them jobs for doing nothing. They probably didn’t watch the debates, aren’t fully educated on his policies, and are stupidly wrapped up in his unmerited enthusiasm.” 
  • 41811:11:43, FBI Attorney 2: “I’m just devastated. I can’t wait until I can leave today and just shut off the world for the next four days.” 
  • 11:12:06, FBI Employee: “Why are you devastated?” 
  • 11:12:18, FBI Employee: “Yes, I’m not watching tv for four years.” 
  •  11:14:16, FBI Attorney 2: “I just can’t imagine the systematic disassembly of the progress we made over the last 8 years. ACA is gone. Who knows if the rhetoric about deporting people, walls, and crap is true. I honestly feel like there is going to be a lot more gun issues, too, the crazies won finally. This is the tea party on steroids. And the GOP is going to be lost, they have to deal with an incumbent in 4 years. We have to fight this again. Also Pence is stupid.” 
  • 11:14:58, FBI Employee: “Yes that’s all true.” 
  • 11:15:01, FBI Attorney 2: “And it’s just hard not to feel like the FBI caused some of this. It was razor thin in some states.” 
  • 11:15:09, FBI Employee: “Yes it was very thin.” 
  • 11:15:23, FBI Attorney 2: “Plus, my god damned name is all over the legal documents investigating his staff.” 

There was a very clear basis going on in the FBI where they favor the Democrats over Republicans and feel that Trump would lead to the destruction of United States. To say otherwise is straight up fibbing yourself.

Edited by Uncle Sam
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Uncle Sam

I just realize something, the last text by the Attorney stating her name is all over the investigation into his staff... I have an feeling there is something big in there. They were activatively targeting Trump campaign during that round of text when he won the election, now they fear the repercussions from their actions. Well... they were not wrong, they are facing blowback for this. Not to mention they were dead wrong about him being a incumbent.

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and then
1 hour ago, Uncle Sam said:

Here is some text messages that been exchanged. I am a little halfway through the documents...

Here is some more texts regarding Trump.

Here is some text regarding an "Friend" reaching out regarding midyear investigation.

Here is some more texts by Strzok and Page...
 

Here is regarding Russian investigation and Strzok planning on joining the investigation.

Some FBI employee's text messages regarding Trump election.

Attorney and Employee conversation about Trump's election.

There was a very clear basis going on in the FBI where they favor the Democrats over Republicans and feel that Trump would lead to the destruction of United States. To say otherwise is straight up fibbing yourself.

People who attempt to deny it are so full of crap, their eyes should be brown.  They literally disgust me.

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Uncle Sam

I am going to name some attorney's who worked on the investigation into Trump's campaign staff...

  • Preet Bharara
  • Andrew Weissman
  • Jeannie Rhee (Likely Candidate for Attorney 2 due to Connections and connections to Democrats.)
  • James Quarles
  • Aaron Zebley
  • Greg Andres
  • Zainab Ahmad
  • Aaron Zelinsky
  • Kyle Freeny
  • Andrew Goldstein
  • Elisabeth Prelogar
  • Brandon Van Grack
  • Adam Jed
  • Rush Atkinson
  • Brain Richardson
  • Ryan Dickey
  • Uzo Asonye

You can see information regarding these attorney's that Mueller has hired.
http://www.businessinsider.com/lawyers-robert-mueller-hired-for-the-trump-russia-investigation-2017-6#andrew-weissmann-2

Regarding Jeannie's connections to Democrats, Obama Administration, DOJ, and FBI... she is the likely candidate for this. This feels very deep, deeper than most realize.

Quote

Rhee is one of several attorneys to resign from the WilmerHale law firm to join Mueller's investigation.

She also has two years of DOJ experience, serving as deputy assistant attorney general under former Attorney General Eric Holder. She advised Holder and Obama administration officials on criminal law issues, as well as criminal procedure and executive issues, according to WilmerHale's website.

As many critics of Mueller's investigation have pointed out, Rhee represented Hillary Clinton in a 2015 lawsuit that sought access to her private emails. She also represented the Clinton Foundation in a 2015 racketeering lawsuit.

Rhee is also one of the members of Mueller's team under scrutiny for her political donations, and has doled out more than $16,000 to Democrats since 2008, CNN reported. She maxed out her donations both in 2015 and 2016 to Clinton's presidential campaign, giving a total of $5,400.

 

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RAyMO

And yet the investigation conclusions and recommendations are neither alarming nor supportive of an orchestrated witch hunt. Which is off course (to some) itself proof that the institutions are involved in cover up and a witch hunt ;)

But yet the report included all those findings and evidences which would make uncomfortable reading for others who claim there was no cover up or politically motivated witch hunt.

The problem with the US is that it has lost trust in its institutions and this is the direct consequence of both structural weakness in the governmental relationships between institutions and the administration (the administration, not this) and a deliberate and determined attack on certain institutions by this administration  - which is coincidentally under investigation by said institutions.

If Trump really wanted to clear the swamp his first action after the publication of the Mueller findings (yes I have no doubt he will still be president and will not be impeached) should be to commission an independent review of 'relevant' government institutions with the aim of strengthening their independence from political interference by the administration of the day.. 

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RAyMO
5 hours ago, Uncle Sam said:

There was a very clear basis going on in the FBI where they favor the Democrats over Republicans and feel that Trump would lead to the destruction of United States. To say otherwise is straight up fibbing yourself.

Yet reading through the extracts you posted above - it seems clear that despite this bias, the people involved were kicking themselves - not for harming trump but for harming Clinton. In other words their actions were contrary to their biases.

Most of the other extracts just show employees devastated at the prospect of having to work for someone they have no respect for or whose policies they do not like. This happens in apolitical working environments - civil servants, military, health service, secret service,  where the person / government in charge implements policies the employees abhor.  But part of the job and most do it very very well is to do the job professionally to the best of their ability. It is not reasonable to expect that employees in an apolitical work place should not have views and opinions of their own.

However, it is lax that they communicated these views using government devices.

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Lilly
14 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Yet reading through the extracts you posted above - it seems clear that despite this bias, the people involved were kicking themselves - not for harming trump but for harming Clinton. In other words their actions were contrary to their biases.

 

Clinton was exonerated. Her lawyer and staff members were given immunity. The destruction of evidence (deleting emails, hammering, bleach bit) was summarily ignored. The infamous Weiner texts on Ms Abedin's laptop were ignored for over a month. Only when there was a worry that the NYC authorities might leak that information was the investigation suddenly reopened...and Comey very quickly found that situation to be in the clear as well. 

Also, where are the emails between FBI agents cussing and dissing Mrs Clinton? Surely there must be some conservative supporting agents who did this as cussing and dissing Trump was obviously taking place/allowed? 

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Lilly
6 hours ago, Uncle Sam said:

If you would like to read the IG report, I will post a link below. Warning: there is 568 pages involved in this document. Right now all the news that is being pushed out might not contain the full scope of what is contained within the document.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2018/06/14/read-ig-report-on-hillary-clinton-email-case.html

I'm trying to ford through this right now...it's a real beast for sure. 

 

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Farmer77
7 minutes ago, Lilly said:

Also, where are the emails between FBI agents cussing and dissing Mrs Clinton? Surely there must be some conservative supporting agents who did this as cussing and dissing Trump was obviously taking place/allowed? 

I think thats probably just a numbers game. People with postgraduate education voted for Clinton over Trump by something like 60%. Considering the FBI requires a decent education odds are there would be fewer Trump voters. 

 

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Lilly
9 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I think thats probably just a numbers game. People with postgraduate education voted for Clinton over Trump by something like 60%. Considering the FBI requires a decent education odds are there would be fewer Trump voters. 

 

Oh right, it couldn't be more like the FBI simply hired more folks (over the last 16 years of Bush and Obama) that would have a political philosophy that differs considerably from what Trump ran on. 

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Farmer77
1 minute ago, Lilly said:

Oh right, it couldn't be more like the FBI simply hired more folks (over the last 16 years of Bush and Obama) that would have a political philosophy that differs considerably from what Trump ran on. 

Again im sure they did. They hire highly educated people. Highly educated people, overall, voted in favor of Hillary. 

Like I said its a numbers game 

 

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CrimsonKing
4 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Again im sure they did. They hire highly educated people. Highly educated people, overall, voted in favor of Hillary. 

Like I said its a numbers game 

 

One being considered "highly educated" can be very subjective Farmer...

One can be considered "highly educated" by having a worthless 4 year degree and many many thousands in student debt,meanwhile said one couldn't explain the difference between a carburetor and a fuel injection system if their lives depended on it lol

Very subjective bud ;)

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Farmer77
Just now, CrimsonKing said:

One being considered "highly educated" can be very subjective Farmer...

One can be considered "highly educated" by having a worthless 4 year degree and many many thousands in student debt,meanwhile said one couldn't explain the difference between a carburetor and a fuel injection system if their lives depended on it lol

Very subjective bud ;)

I was speaking specifically of statistics and why there were would be fewer Trump voters in that setting. I was not trying to make the claim that education by default makes one more intelligent. (but if someone became flustered by that thought I wouldn't be angry :lol:

How we voted — by age, education, race and sexual orientation

education

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CrimsonKing
Just now, Farmer77 said:

I was speaking specifically of statistics and why there were would be fewer Trump voters in that setting. I was not trying to make the claim that education by default makes one more intelligent. (but if someone became flustered by that thought I wouldn't be angry :lol:

How we voted — by age, education, race and sexual orientation

education

I got ya,just figured that may have needed pointing out :lol:

Hell i know a 23 year old grown man drowning in student debt and a liberal arts degree and no job who sobbed his eyes out when Hills lost... :rofl:

He may be "educated" but he's also an idiot hahaha

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ExpandMyMind
6 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

One being considered "highly educated" can be very subjective Farmer...

One can be considered "highly educated" by having a worthless 4 year degree and many many thousands in student debt,meanwhile said one couldn't explain the difference between a carburetor and a fuel injection system if their lives depended on it lol

Very subjective bud ;)

Most degrees throughout their modules teach you to critically analyse any information you are presented with and as a result you are better able to discern truth from fiction. You learn to check sources and debunk nonsense.

I've yet to see this as part of any mechanic apprenticeship.

It's not that being highly educated automatically means someone has a higher intelligence baseline than someone who is not. Rather it means that they have more knowledge and tools at their disposal through their education that allows them to judge information more accurately. 

There is a huge difference between knowledge and intelligence. Anyone can be intelligent, but they have to learn something before they can become knowledgeable.

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CrimsonKing
Just now, ExpandMyMind said:

Most degrees throughout their modules teach you to critically analyse any information you are presented with and as a result you are better able to discern truth from fiction. You learn to check sources and debunk nonsense.

I've yet to see this as part of any mechanic apprenticeship.

It's not that being highly educated automatically means someone has a higher intelligence baseline than someone who is not. Rather it means that they have more knowledge and tools at their disposal through their education that allows them to judge information more accurately. 

There is a huge difference between knowledge and intelligence. Anyone can be intelligent, but they have to learn something before they can become knowledgeable.

Playing fast and loose with the word "most" there guy...

And mechanics require critical thinking and problem solving moreso than opinionated nonsense and self biased "thinking" ;)

I do agree on the difference between knowledge and intelligence though...

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Farmer77
4 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Most degrees throughout their modules teach you to critically analyse any information you are presented with and as a result you are better able to discern truth from fiction. You learn to check sources and debunk nonsense.

So no lie as someone raised in a fundamentalist Christian household I was truly convinced what you mention here was "brainwashing" until I began my own college career. 

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Farmer77
1 minute ago, CrimsonKing said:

And mechanics require critical thinking and problem solving moreso than opinionated nonsense and self biased "thinking" ;)

Also requires a natural ability. One which I most definitely do not have. 

Some mechanics and avionics folks I have known are like freaking wizards. 

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