European divisions over migrants

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

The EU's policy in this area cost thousands of needless lives, Op Sophia was a result of that disastrous policy. I can say without fear of contradiction if those rescued were returned to African ports in the early days it would've severly limited the operations of the smugglers and wouldn't have encouraged the increased numbers of economic migrants trying to reach Europe, The perception of the rescue boats changed from life savers to a ferry service to europe. who wouldn't want a 'free ticket'

Not true. 13,000 directly saved, no migrants 'returned to Africa' where they would die by now, because contrary to the most disgusting perversion of truth, no one boards the migrant boats out malice, pleasure or simple greed. They risk their lives because they've got nothing to lose.

 

Quote

It was the same with Syria, the UK govts position was one of, it was far better to leave the refugees in the UN camps, plough aid money in and at the same time process those for re-settlement around europe. where they'd have been flown in by aeroplane, safe warm and legitimate, But no that was seen as inhuman, racist. anti-immigrant whatever.

Germany however #allwelcome thought it was much more humane to have millions of old, weak and vulnerable refugees try their luck alongside more young able bodied refugees walking hundreds of miles through europe during one of the coldest winters seen in recent years, this i remind you was unilaterally announced by Merkel which caught the EU off guard how many people went missing on that march north? we will never be know as many will have gone off piste so to speak never to be seen again, dying from sickness, wild animal attack, murder and taken into trafficking by gangs, but fast forward 7 months and the EU had a change of policy now it was paying Turkey €4billion Euro's to stop the migrants leaving and guess what they then thought it was a great idea to process the refugees in the UN camps. what a complete and utter waste of life was lost during those 7 months. they should have done it from the start like the British govt said.

Thousands of lives lost because of inept do-gooders who had the best intentions but couldn't apply logic to their actions and the looming consequences of those actions. its a damn disgrace and everyone who supported it should hang their heads in shame.

Not true again. If your government had such brilliant plan, the will and the means to carry it out, it wouldn't be stopped by any imaginary sadists that exist in your head and are against the aid for the refugee camps outside Europe, or airlifts to Europe.

Go for it. Save the millions still waiting – apparently, for you. You don't even have to do that Brexit already, no one in EU structures would stop you from saving Syria on your own.

 

Also, it's ridiculous to even attempt suggesting it was specifically Germany's fault that your mighty government decided not carry out their perfect airlift plan. The welcome campaign didn't invite refugees to leave camps in ME, or planned their route. It promised those who already took off will be let in. Like it would make refugees go back if Merkel said 'sod off' and closed the border. Where could refugees return? To Alepo? To the crater where Homs used to be? To the dysentery paradise of ME camps that your government could have helped but somehow didn't?  

If Germany had closed the border, you'd see more confusion, serious body count and probably a war at my place, because we are frustrated lately and we could use an excuse to vent out a little. Or a lot. 

Merkel made wise albeit unpopular decision. It might shorten her career, but her conscience is clear. Unlike the conscience of the would-be-but-we-won't-because-someone-else's-fault airlifters. Hypocrisy. Such awful, revolting hypocrisy.     

I remember your caustic posts when the migrant wave was at peak. You ridiculed the refugees, accusing them of being invaders and dressed too well for refugees, you ridiculed their trail of tears and anyone who showed any signs of compassion for them.

Now you'd pose as someone who gives a **** about them and claims your government was prevented from saving them? Why, if they're islamist murderers, according to your opinion from just a while ago, crawling into Europe to bring it down, because that's so easy to do... according to you again, and you're about to discover just how royally wrong you are about that detail.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Helen of Annoy

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, stevewinn said:

That's the problem with do-gooders they can never see their failings because their intentions where good.

 

 

It's obvious that they believe the EU and U.S. owe every human being on the planet a free living, with an equal or better lifestyle just because they demand it.  Fair is fair, after all!  How DARE the "rich" not do more!  The irony of the situation is that if this continues unabated, the "rich" countries will be reduced to the same dysfunctional, chaotic squalor that the migrants knew before coming.  THAT'S only FAIR, after all.  Then we can all be destitute and miserable together, with NO ONE able to help others when the harshest storms of this life come.  Nevermind that it was the fault of these people and the governments they chose or bowed to that caused most of their suffering.  Mention forcibly demanding that this change and you're a miserable, racist Buzzard!  Oh no... you must accept them as they are, feed, house, clothe them and give them a chance to fulfill their economic dreams, EVEN if you can't do it for people born in your own nation.  The problem with these toxic globalist stooges is that they don't care if this happens because it's what they'd actually like to see.  They want certain nations held responsible and punished.  And they call the rest of us, "haters".

[Helen of Annoy]

33 minutes ago, and then said:

 

 

It's obvious that they believe the EU and U.S. owe every human being on the planet a free living, with an equal or better lifestyle just because they demand it.  Fair is fair, after all!  How DARE the "rich" not do more!  The irony of the situation is that if this continues unabated, the "rich" countries will be reduced to the same dysfunctional, chaotic squalor that the migrants knew before coming.  THAT'S only FAIR, after all.  Then we can all be destitute and miserable together, with NO ONE able to help others when the harshest storms of this life come.  Nevermind that it was the fault of these people and the governments they chose or bowed to that caused most of their suffering.  Mention forcibly demanding that this change and you're a miserable, racist Buzzard!  Oh no... you must accept them as they are, feed, house, clothe them and give them a chance to fulfill their economic dreams, EVEN if you can't do it for people born in your own nation.  The problem with these toxic globalist stooges is that they don't care if this happens because it's what they'd actually like to see.  They want certain nations held responsible and punished.  And they call the rest of us, "haters".

Go have your trade wars, that are so easy to win. Globally. 

I remember your posts too, triumphing that we will have a war in Balkans, now when 'US won't help you again'. How deluded was that? 

And go act rich in front of people who don't pithy the fool that has no heritage anymore. Because flaunting with material possessions was never a part of any European tradition. I don't know who taught you that, but you belong to them now.

 

More on topic, Europe is still Christian and no Christian will refuse to help anyone in need. Humanists of any other religion or without one agree.  

Edited June 16, 2018 by Helen of Annoy
spelling. because I'm nitpicker sometimes.

[Setton]

20 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And go act rich in front of people who don't pithy the fool that has no heritage anymore. Because flaunting with material possessions was never a part of any European tradition.

Could not have put it better. 

Some Americans really don't get that material wealth isn't the be all and end all for the rest of the world. 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Go have your trade wars, that are so easy to win. Globally. 

I remember your posts too, triumphing that we will have a war in Balkans, now when 'US won't help you again'. How deluded was that? 

And go act rich in front of people who don't pithy the fool that has no heritage anymore. Because flaunting with material possessions was never a part of any European tradition. I don't know who taught you that, but you belong to them now.

 

More on topic, Europe is still Christian and no Christian will refuse to help anyone in need. Humanists of any other religion or without one agree.  

i don't think taking in illegal immigration can easily be accepted as a Christian duty, Helen. we live in secular nations. 

[+and-then]

58 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

i don't think taking in illegal immigration can easily be accepted as a Christian duty, Helen. we live in secular nations. 

There is also a duty to family FIRST.  These immigration snobs casually overlook that aspect of duty, however.  It seems to be about feeling morally superior.  Whatever makes them feel better, I guess.  

[Unusual Tournament]

33 minutes ago, and then said:

There is also a duty to family FIRST.  These immigration snobs casually overlook that aspect of duty, however.  It seems to be about feeling morally superior.  Whatever makes them feel better, I guess.  

family and the current society we have built should be protected and not diluted. not saying that we can't or shouldn't allow other people from other cultures to join us but its our values and society that should be promoted. 

[+and-then]

24 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

family and the current society we have built should be protected and not diluted. not saying that we can't or shouldn't allow other people from other cultures to join us but its our values and society that should be promoted. 

I agree and I am not, contrary to this mindless rhetoric, happy that these children are being traumatized.  I'm simply pointing out that it wasn't the U.S. government's decision to have their parents BRING them into such a situation.  The more the message carries, the fewer children will be traumatized.  We cannot welcome the poverty of the entire world into our nation and still be left with the ability to make a difference for any of them in the future.  Only idiots or zealots could have trouble with that truth.

[Unusual Tournament]

@Helen of Annoy I'm finding it hard to follow your argument. are you saying that Putin is purposely flooding Europe with refugees with the help of his new best friend Erdogan? 

i think the economic and social problems of third world countries such as Syria and Libya should be addressed first by our politicians instead of just accepted as normal or thrown into the strategic geopolitical basket case. in that context, maybe Europe would be better off invading Syria and establishing the same democratic principled state that these migrants seem all to keen on in their home countries instead of just kicking the can down the road.     

[RoofGardener]

5 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

@Helen of Annoy I'm finding it hard to follow your argument. are you saying that Putin is purposely flooding Europe with refugees with the help of his new best friend Erdogan? 

i think the economic and social problems of third world countries such as Syria and Libya should be addressed first by our politicians instead of just accepted as normal or thrown into the strategic geopolitical basket case. in that context, maybe Europe would be better off invading Syria and establishing the same democratic principled state that these migrants seem all to keen on in their home countries instead of just kicking the can down the road.     

Excellent idea. After all, that worked so well in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya  

[Helen of Annoy]

8 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

i don't think taking in illegal immigration can easily be accepted as a Christian duty, Helen. we live in secular nations. 

It should have been clear from the context that though we do live in secular states, our national identities include the Christianity.

Insist on Christianity, to be more precise. And the more 'conservative' a political option is, the more likely they are to hide behind the crucifix when committing mortal sins.   

The particular post was also written to a person who keeps mentioning god and bible, so I thought it was necessary that he is reminded what Jesus actually taught. He has religious duty to help. The more he invents the excuses to override Jesus' direct command, thus mocking the word of god, the further in blasphemy he dives.

You don't. Me neither. I'm agnostic with pagan inclination. My personal ethics is a matter of common sense and personal honour for me. I like, even admire true Christians, because their teachings are very much in accordance to my own understanding what constitutes the most noble ideals. 

 

And here comes the important part: if one can't help, that's all right. No one is called to help if they can't, only if they can. 

I'm talking about honest Christian and honest humanist agnostic/atheist/you-name-it equally. Maybe we can't help physically. But we can help with not misusing the misery of others for our own promotion, we can help with not spreading panicky, malicious lies and not indulging in sick need to kick someone who's already on the floor.    

In other words, the amount of disgusting false terrorist accusations against whole nations, who were driven out of their homes, the amount of deranged pleasure derived from the fact that you are not lacking while they are starving, begging for help from you, is definitely not helping anyone and is most obviously a sign of personal disorder, that is receiving outrageously dangerous political encouragement instead of psychiatric treatment. 

That's what enrages me. The worst that can possibly float around the worst among human brains is now pushed to become an acceptable life philosophy, interpretation of Jesus' teaching and legitimate political option. 

No.  

 

5 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

@Helen of Annoy I'm finding it hard to follow your argument. are you saying that Putin is purposely flooding Europe with refugees with the help of his new best friend Erdogan? 

i think the economic and social problems of third world countries such as Syria and Libya should be addressed first by our politicians instead of just accepted as normal or thrown into the strategic geopolitical basket case. in that context, maybe Europe would be better off invading Syria and establishing the same democratic principled state that these migrants seem all to keen on in their home countries instead of just kicking the can down the road.     

You're trolling me, aren't you?

 

Yes, Putin with his new bff Erdogan is purposely flooding EU with ME (and through ME routed) refugees.

No, invasions are not the solution. It's how this crap starts and it obviously never ends. A nation must consolidate itself. Support yes, invasion no.  

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Excellent idea. After all, that worked so well in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya  

i mean't to stabilise and stop illegal refugees, never mind. yeah its funny.

[stevewinn]

35 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

i mean't to stabilise and stop illegal refugees, never mind. yeah its funny.

A better argument would be to police and secure the borders.

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It should have been clear from the context that though we do live in secular states, our national identities include the Christianity.

Insist on Christianity, to be more precise. And the more 'conservative' a political option is, the more likely they are to hide behind the crucifix when committing mortal sins.   

The particular post was also written to a person who keeps mentioning god and bible, so I thought it was necessary that he is reminded what Jesus actually taught. He has religious duty to help. The more he invents the excuses to override Jesus' direct command, thus mocking the word of god, the further in blasphemy he dives.

You don't. Me neither. I'm agnostic with pagan inclination. My personal ethics is a matter of common sense and personal honour for me. I like, even admire true Christians, because their teachings are very much in accordance to my own understanding what constitutes the most noble ideals. 

that's right Helen we live in secular states that respect the rule of law above religious laws. but i don't think that the secular states can or should easily remove or wear their Christian identity like some garment when it suits others. our Christian religion has been reformed and our societies progressive. I'm all for humanitarian aid... but not diluting societies that are being taken advantage of. Merkel and Macron would do well to look at their existing many minorities and the level of integration each and every group has taken before consulting no body and forcing others to take on similar burdens to their societies. and to be specific, it seems those that don't contribute and respect their host countries are predominately Middle Eastern and Moslem. without internal reformation Islam will continue to exert a backward pull on secular nations. and that can only come about in the Islamic world and not in the West. 

Im well aware of 'and then's' religion and politics and i believe he as every right to his views and since he can't exercise the same rights in a Muslim nation that you want to give to Muslims for his country i don't believe it fair to expect him to be as generous. I'm a Christian but my belief system is leaning more gnostic these days but someone as open minded like me would be discriminated against in all Muslim nations by the very people that are lining up to enter mine. you want me to donate for refugees, write my local member to help these people, give them temporary asylum... no problem but i don't think it right to encourage these people to make a dangerous journey and then rely on my Christianity to allow them economic benefits that they don't have back home or allow their dictators to flood my country so they can tilt the demographics into their favour.   

Caveat emptor. 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

And here comes the important part: if one can't help, that's all right. No one is called to help if they can't, only if they can. 

I'm talking about honest Christian and honest humanist agnostic/atheist/you-name-it equally. Maybe we can't help physically. But we can help with not misusing the misery of others for our own promotion, we can help with not spreading panicky, malicious lies and not indulging in sick need to kick someone who's already on the floor.    

In other words, the amount of disgusting false terrorist accusations against whole nations, who were driven out of their homes, the amount of deranged pleasure derived from the fact that you are not lacking while they are starving, begging for help from you, is definitely not helping anyone and is most obviously a sign of personal disorder, that is receiving outrageously dangerous political encouragement instead of psychiatric treatment. 

That's what enrages me. The worst that can possibly float around the worst among human brains is now pushed to become an acceptable life philosophy, interpretation of Jesus' teaching and legitimate political option. 

like i said earlier I'm all for helping others help themselves. i respect your humanist views and congratulate you on being consistent. i want to help others regardless of their religion but they are not all my views. nor do i believe we should dilute the Christian faith that has nurtured democracy and free will to a religion that cannot accomodate the same in their home country's. 

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 You're trolling me, aren't you?

 

Yes, Putin with his new bff Erdogan is purposely flooding EU with ME (and through ME routed) refugees.

No, invasions are not the solution. It's how this crap starts and it obviously never ends. A nation must consolidate itself. Support yes, invasion no.  

No I'm not trolling you Helen, I'm just not that smart. i seriously believe that the current refugee problem was started by Turkey and its neo caliph for some sick plan to flood Europe with refugees to be used as a weapon and cultural revenge. It suits Putin also to dismember the EU and if it took removing Assad, Iran, Russia and Turkey from Syria to establish a democratic country then I'm all for that. i know it didn't work in Iraq and A'stan but thats because those above mentioned countries like the fact that turmoil and fear keeps their own minorities in line. the Middle East needs to be remade along ethnic and religious lines. multiculturalism only works with people that can assimilate in their host countries.  

[Unusual Tournament]

20 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

A better argument would be to police and secure the borders.

your probably still harping on about Brexit but i will give you the benefit of the doubt. Syria should be divided into religious and ethnic states. they should live apart in order to respect others. the same for A'stan and Iraq but America and Europe are just dumb enough to allow their "friends and allies" to formulate policy that not only extends across their borders but now also into Europe, Australia and America. Trump is not the bloke i thought he was. he is either weak and devoid of a refugee plan or just a Russian asset. 

[stevewinn]

10 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

your probably still harping on about Brexit but i will give you the benefit of the doubt. Syria should be divided into religious and ethnic states. they should live apart in order to respect others. the same for A'stan and Iraq but America and Europe are just dumb enough to allow their "friends and allies" to formulate policy that not only extends across their borders but now also into Europe, Australia and America. Trump is not the bloke i thought he was. he is either weak and devoid of a refugee plan or just a Russian asset. 

please don't give me the benefit of the doubt, just learn to read. your the first one to mention Brexit and seem to be in conversation with yourself. you dont have to quote people to go off on a tangent just do what you normally do. multiple posts, like you have above.

[Phaeton80]

Quote

It's an immense shame that current Russian leadership currently thinks Russia will benefit more from confrontation than it would from cooperation.

Interesting, the exact opposite seems to be what I am witnessing. How views can differ..

Look, you seem overly focused on Russia as the soul malignant hand in these macro events discussed here, and I understand that given your Croatian / Eastern Eruopean provenance.

But it seems as though you are focussing on the fly on the wall, while ignoring the pinkish elephant filling up the room imho.. Which is the Israeli/Zionist connection. Surely, if this man is 'controlled' by anything at all besides the Mighty Dollar, its the Zionist Israeli element. Coincidentally, there are some very interesting connections / interrelations between the (hidden) movers and shakers / elite of the Israeli State and those of the Russian variant (and the USA).

Some relevant names would be Sheldon Adelson, Abraham Leib Hoch aka Robert Maxwell (father of Ghislaine Maxwell, a significant player in the Iran-Contra affair on behalf of Israel’s Mossad and, to some extent, the Soviet Union - connection to Simeon Mogilevich), Adnan Khashoggi, Jeffrey Epstein, Roy Cohn, Felix Sheferovsky aka Felix Sater (son of Mikhail Sheferovsky, an underboss to Russian mob boss Semion Mogilevich) and the (Chabadnik) Lubavitch empire. Not to mention the Chabadnik ties of Jared Kushner's ex-convict father, Charles.

There seem to be some interesting ties between Fred Trump and his son Donald to certain organised crime elements; functioning as money laundering assets by way of real estate speculation. Certain 'loyalties', dependencies, might have hailed from those dealings. If there is to construe any pattern of unruly 'outside' control, surely its the US - Israel - Russia Jewish Chabadnik / Zionist connection. I mean, this peoples champion makes Obama look like a raging anti Semite for godsake, every word he utters, every move he makes screams avid Zionist. In addition, the whole terror trend since 2001, as well as the Balkanization of the ME, as well as the migrants flooding Europe / the West, fit the aspirations of this group rather nicely.

Ill put down my tin foil hat now, lets not scare the usual crowd on such a placid Sunday afternoon..

[Helen of Annoy]

52 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

no problem but i don't think it right to encourage these people to make a dangerous journey and then rely on my Christianity to allow them economic benefits that they don't have back home or allow their dictators to flood my country so they can tilt the demographics into their favour.   

Caveat emptor. 

 

I apologise for cutting the most of your post out, but I wanted to quickly address just the main points. 

EU is 500+ million people. Even if you take the most insanely overblown numbers, still there's about 1 million refugees in total, since 2014. And the arrivals are in decline.

500:1

And we're supposed to be scared of being outnumbered? By people of different religion? Not to mention colour. What about the intelligence? You see, I'm not bothered with religion because kind people are kind, *******s are *******s, you find that in every flock. I'm genuinely scared that we, as a race, are becoming more stupid and deformed with each generation, but I'm not advocating tossing stupid and ugly people out the country. I am tempted, but it would be rather empty here if we did that.   

 

43 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

like i said earlier I'm all for helping others help themselves. i respect your humanist views and congratulate you on being consistent. i want to help others regardless of their religion but they are not all my views. nor do i believe we should dilute the Christian faith that has nurtured democracy and free will to a religion that cannot accomodate the same in their home country's. 

Too late for the Christian religion. It was diluted already. Sectarianism, politics before Christ, perversions and greed - if you're looking for an actual atheist, churches are statistically the most likely place to find one. 

But it's not too late for the Christian faith. We are given a chance to confirm and strengthen it. Those who rather wouldn't are not Christians, they are only using Christian symbols as their tribal symbols. 

 

37 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

No I'm not trolling you Helen, I'm just not that smart. i seriously believe that the current refugee problem was started by Turkey and its neo caliph for some sick plan to flood Europe with refugees to be used as a weapon and cultural revenge. It suits Putin also to dismember the EU and if it took removing Assad, Iran, Russia and Turkey from Syria to establish a democratic country then I'm all for that. i know it didn't work in Iraq and A'stan but thats because those above mentioned countries like the fact that turmoil and fear keeps their own minorities in line. the Middle East needs to be remade along ethnic and religious lines. multiculturalism only works with people that can assimilate in their host countries.  

I'm certainly stupider than you, but it doesn't take any brains to see Russians in ME. Just stop refusing to see them and - poof - there they are. Blasting the crap out of Syria. It's really hard to overlook that detail. 

Anyway, I do agree that ME has to be remade, only that's not something that will happen because there's some government that will decide so. It's their time for rearrangement. And it will keep making refugees out of ordinary people who did nothing wrong and are not rabid lunatics, in most cases. 

I also agree with you about multiculturalism, only allow me to nitpick: multikulti doesn't work, integration does. Which is how the current migrant mess will be sorted out: integrated will stay, dilute our gene pool (  it's healthy, look what inbreeding does - it's better to have a healthy mutt than drooling purebred imbecile), those unintegrable will isolate themselves, and allowing radicalized nests is going out of the fashion.   

[Helen of Annoy]

14 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Interesting, the exact opposite seems to be what I am witnessing. How views can differ..

Look, you seem overly focused on Russia as the soul malignant hand in these macro events discussed here, and I understand that given your Croatian / Eastern Eruopean provenance.

But it seems as though you are focussing on the fly on the wall, while ignoring the pinkish elephant filling up the room imho.. Which is the Israeli/Zionist connection. Surely, if this man is 'controlled' by anything at all besides the Mighty Dollar, its the Zionist Israeli element. Coincidentally, there are some very interesting connections / interrelations between the (hidden) movers and shakers / elite of the Israeli State and those of the Russian variant (and the USA).

Some relevant names would be Sheldon Adelson, Abraham Leib Hoch aka Robert Maxwell (father of Ghislaine Maxwell, a significant player in the Iran-Contra affair on behalf of Israel’s Mossad and, to some extent, the Soviet Union - connection to Simeon Mogilevich), Adnan Khashoggi, Jeffrey Epstein, Roy Cohn, Felix Sheferovsky aka Felix Sater (son of Mikhail Sheferovsky, an underboss to Russian mob boss Semion Mogilevich) and the (Chabadnik) Lubavitch empire. Not to mention the Chabadnik ties of Jared Kushner's ex-convict father, Charles.

There seem to be some interesting ties between Fred Trump and his son Donald to certain organised crime elements; functioning as money laundering assets by way of real estate speculation. Certain 'loyalties', dependencies, might have hailed from those dealings. If there is to construe any pattern of unruly 'outside' control, surely its the US - Israel - Russia Jewish Chabadnik / Zionist connection. I mean, this peoples champion makes Obama look like a raging anti Semite for godsake, every word he utters, every move he makes screams avid Zionist. In addition, the whole terror trend since 2001, as well as the Balkanization of the ME, as well as the migrants flooding Europe / the West, fit the aspirations of this group rather nicely.

Ill put down my tin foil hat now, lets not scare the usual crowd on such a placid Sunday afternoon..

*takes Phaeton's tin foil hat*

It's not a fly on the wall, it's a hornet. 

*returns tin foil hat*

[Farmer77]

3 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I also agree with you about multiculturalism, only allow me to nitpick: multikulti doesn't work, integration does. Which is how the current migrant mess will be sorted out: integrated will stay, dilute our gene pool (  it's healthy, look what inbreeding does - it's better to have a healthy mutt than drooling purebred imbecile), those unintegrable will isolate themselves, and allowing radicalized nests is going out of the fashion.   

In other words you have faith that the western culture is truly the proper way to live and as such  once immersed in it the vast majority will conform. Our ideology is the winning one. 

Thats generally my take on it as well, I think until recently that has been most people's take on the situation. 

[Helen of Annoy]

Just now, Farmer77 said:

In other words you have faith that the western culture is truly the proper way to live and as such  once immersed in it the vast majority will conform. Our ideology is the winning one. 

Thats generally my take on it as well, I think until recently that has been most people's take on the situation. 

Only I wouldn't say it's our ideology that is the winning one, it's the common sense that is better for survival than religious extremism and other illogical ways to organize a society. 

[Farmer77]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

Only I wouldn't say it's our ideology that is the winning one, it's the common sense that is better for survival than religious extremism and other illogical ways to organize a society. 

Well I guess by ideology I just mean, be cool LOL 

[Phaeton80]

The winning ideology is a politically engaged, (highly) educated public, democratically elected officials, and a fourth estate which does its job.

We have none of the above, none. And they are rapidly regressing, certainly not progressing.

Our ideology is shiney on the outside, from a distance, though thoroughly rotten in the core. Any musings that would propose ours as the 'superior' template for others to follow are sheer delusions. Im quite sure this will become increasingly clear in the years to come. The rifts between 'elite' and 'regulars' will become more and more obvious, externalised, normalised. The foundations of that rift between the 'haves' and 'have nots' can already be readily observed in all the main cities in the West, I can personally attest to that. The illusions we maintain for ourselves - the civilized, moral & ethical West, justice, equality; shining beacon of light to the rest of the world - are already becoming untenable for any observant, objective individual.