Measuring in Ancient Egypt

[Ahatmose]

To all the "Cliff Clayborns" on this site I thought I would throw you some nice red raw meat for you to rip apart since you seem to enjoy it so much. Below is what I have figured out is a most logical and simple method to measuring in Ancient Egypt.  Sharpen your teeth and let's begin.

Here is the question we are going to try to answer: "How did The Ancient Egyptians lay out the fields again after the inundation had washed away all of the property corners"  I never could get a logical or meaningful answer answer so I went and tried to discover it on my own and the solution I have found is ingenious and even if this is not what they used the concept is so simple you will be hard pressed to not believe they used it in this manner.

When most people think about this they see surveyors with transits and levels and 100 cubit long ropes measuring ... but you know what - did they, or have you, ever stopped to think from where were they measuring and more to the point ... toward what were they measuring. Also I was dumbfounded by the notion that such a rich and cultured and advanced civilization could not even tell or read angles. It simply did not make sense and so I went in search of a way to read angles ... but not have angles. Sound like double speak ? Well I don't blame you for in reality it is. But from pondering that question a possible use of ancient measures and design came to me. A veil had been lifted and I felt I had figured out the knowledge that may have been lost. It is so ingenious it may make you smile. I had managed to find a way to read angles, measure distances and lay out literally all of Ancient Egypt WITHOUT A TRANSIT OR A LEVEL OR A TAPE MEASURE. It is wild and soon I will slowly post the solution.

Should I bother or just leave it here.

regards

[jmccr8]

6 minutes ago, Ahatmose said:

To all the "Cliff Clayborns" on this site I thought I would throw you some nice red raw meat for you to rip apart since you seem to enjoy it so much. Below is what I have figured out is a most logical and simple method to measuring in Ancient Egypt.  Sharpen your teeth and let's begin.

Here is the question we are going to try to answer: "How did The Ancient Egyptians lay out the fields again after the inundation had washed away all of the property corners"  I never could get a logical or meaningful answer answer so I went and tried to discover it on my own and the solution I have found is ingenious and even if this is not what they used the concept is so simple you will be hard pressed to not believe they used it in this manner.

When most people think about this they see surveyors with transits and levels and 100 cubit long ropes measuring ... but you know what - did they, or have you, ever stopped to think from where were they measuring and more to the point ... toward what were they measuring. Also I was dumbfounded by the notion that such a rich and cultured and advanced civilization could not even tell or read angles. It simply did not make sense and so I went in search of a way to read angles ... but not have angles. Sound like double speak ? Well I don't blame you for in reality it is. But from pondering that question a possible use of ancient measures and design came to me. A veil had been lifted and I felt I had figured out the knowledge that may have been lost. It is so ingenious it may make you smile. I had managed to find a way to read angles, measure distances and lay out literally all of Ancient Egypt WITHOUT A TRANSIT OR A LEVEL OR A TAPE MEASURE. It is wild and soon I will slowly post the solution.

Should I bother or just leave it here.

regards

Hi Ahatmose

Why yes of course you should post the material that you create a thread about, it is why we have the forum. You don't need our permission you just have to show your theory and welcome the discussion, but you know that which is why you laid out your OP in the manner you did.

jmccr8

[Ahatmose]

Well tragically my last experience here went very badly.

[stereologist]

1 minute ago, Ahatmose said:

Well tragically my last experience here went very badly.

You posted mathematics that was incorrect and also was not in line with the use of mathematics at the time of the construction of the Giza pyramids. You also posted quite a few mistakes dealing with the known history of the site.

Your response was to shut off anyone pointing out proper criticisms.

Maybe some of the other sites lapped up your idea without a thought. That doesn't happen at U-M. You might consider the importance of feedback to improve your idea, rework your idea, or replace your idea with a superior one.

[Piney]

33 minutes ago, Ahatmose said:

To all the "Cliff Clayborns" on this site I thought I would throw you some nice red raw meat for you to rip apart

  We like milk. Not meat.

[Windowpane]

32 minutes ago, Ahatmose said:

"How did The Ancient Egyptians lay out the fields again after the inundation had washed away all of the property corners" 

AE surveyors were apparently under great pressure to re-survey as quickly as possible land whose boundary marks were washed away by the annual flood, in order that it could be ready for winter cultivation.  There are representations of surveyors at work, using knotted ropes (indicating units of measure), merkhets and measuring rods.  Writers from Herodotos to Cassiodorus relate the origins of geometry to this exercise. (Dilke, O.A.W. (1987), "Reading the Past: Mathematics and Measurement" British Museum Press: 7-8).  However, when discussing area measurements, the AE apparently ignored any word corresponding to “square” (24).

Kemp (1989) “AE”: 138 has some discussion of how ancient surveys were probably effected, but warns against concluding that geometrical ratios were necessarily applied in every case. 

To begin with, it appears that most surveys took place in situ, and that the AE surveyors didn’t make working sketches.

“In the process three elements came together.  The first was the likely system of measuring over long distances, using a rope knotted at set intervals, as was used in land survey.  When the ground was relatively flat and the buildings were intended to be rectangular a certain frequency of measurements tended to recur …  "

[Ahatmose]

Ok then onward:

Here is how it unfolded. For several months I had been working on an idea of how could I, in the middle of the Egyptian deserts, be able to know where I was. And as in all the old problems of The Ancient Greeks there were limitations on what I could have with me. Only utensils that were available in 2500 BC would be able to be used. And so I started the thought experiments.  I have a little model pyramid given to me by my daughters and as I turned it this way and that an idea slowly started to form. And then out of nowhere I saw it. I guess it is partly due to our indoctrination and the way we are taught to think but I suddenly saw a pattern emerging.  We all know that the majority of the pyramids are aligned to the cardinal points, that is north, east, west and south and we really for the longest time, and most still today, have no real idea of why they went through this much trouble to try to get it perfect but after reading my solution you will see it clearly. In a way it ties into my being able to tell what day it was by simply looking at the phase of The Moon. It was extremely easy to teach myself and as long as I worked it and used it,  it remained but as soon as I stopped looking at The Moon and trying to figure it out it now escapes me. And so it was that I started examining pictures of the pyramids, mainly The Red Pyramid trying to figure out a way I could tell what angle I was at. And as sometimes happens in these instance I had an insight. I finally saw what I had been unable to see before and as I explain it to you you will see it clearly also.  The Pyramids had been aligned to the cardinal points to allow travelers to get their bearings out in the wild open spaces of the deserts where getting lost usually meant losing your life and here is how they accomplished this simple feat. 

Firstly we need an image of The Red Pyramid as viewed directly on it's face or from a cardinal direction. Here is one I found. This is the south face.

And I guess since I was doing research on The Giza Pyramids as viewed on edge at the time  I decided to take another look to see if I could find an image that showed this pyramid on edge.  Here is one I found.

Here is a small simplistic diagram I did early in my research to show this concept a little clearer. The image to the right is of course 420.0 cubits . It is important to note that The Ancient Builders seemed to always used nice round numbers such as 440, 420,360 (362) 200, 280 cubits in their building of the pyramids. The following solution may tell us way.  But first the simple diagram.

 

It is pretty obvious to anyone that in order to move from viewing any of the faces dead on around to the edge we of course have had to travel 45 degrees left or right. Not at all rocket science and extremely simplistic except for one itsy bitsy teeny tiny problem. We can't use angles. Oh no what are we going to do. How are we going to get across the idea of what you and I mean as 45 degrees to someone who has absolutely no concept of any degrees or circles let alone 45 degrees.  Well I have to admit I struggled with this idea and concept and I really had not solved it completely because I was carried away on a thought  in regards to the measure of distances but the seeds are planted and I pretty well know how I am going to solve it but let's move on just a bit. 

[Ahatmose]

Never mind ... I should have known to stay away from the people of this board especially stero whatever.  And if you believe that the fields were laid out after the inundation with knotted ropes then this thread would have been a waste anyway. But perhaps someone will explain to us from what were they reassuring and toward what were they measuring. In other words what were their back-sites and fore-sights and where did they start to measure from ? 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Ahatmose
spelling and to add "anyway"

[Saru]

This topic would go a lot better if you stopped focusing on what went wrong in the last one.

[Ahatmose]

Well no surprises here as very few people I have asked have an answer on where they started from and what were their back sites and so on. To me it is kind beyond obvious, ... It had to be the pyramids themselves. But how could the pyramids help in the laying out of Ancient Egypt  ?  Well even Petrie had this to say about the pyramids: that they "are valuable survey signals"

Let us now look at another example where we have no clue what the angle is from true south. (or North whatever the case may be)

How are we ever going to figure it out ? Well amazingly it is quite simple.

How would you do it ?

regards

 

[stereologist]

I think a problem here is that the basis for this discussion is wrong. Surveying has to do with fields and not the pyramids. I don't see the Nile farmlands in any of these photos. That is where the inundation by the Nile removes the farmland boundaries. The issue is how each farmer or land owner was reassigned the property they had rights to after the Nile flood waters subsided.

Petrie is not talking about anything other than a scientific survey of the Giza complex.  His comments do not have anything to do with the ability of the AE to assign farm land boundaries.

[Ahatmose]

Where did the re-survey begin and end and what were used as back sites ?

Edited June 24, 2018 by Ahatmose
spelling

[stereologist]

4 minutes ago, Ahatmose said:

Where did the re-survey begin and end and what were used as back sites ?

Please tell us.

[Ahatmose]

10 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I think a problem here is that the basis for this discussion is wrong. Surveying has to do with fields and not the pyramids. I don't see the Nile farmlands in any of these photos. That is where the inundation by the Nile removes the farmland boundaries. The issue is how each farmer or land owner was reassigned the property they had rights to after the Nile flood waters subsided.

Petrie is not talking about anything other than a scientific survey of the Giza complex.  His comments do not have anything to do with the ability of the AE to assign farm land boundaries.

Farmland and The Pyramids ... no connection ? Are you sure ?

And the old explanation is that they used knotted ropes to measure. I am asking from where were they measuring and toward what were they measuring ? HINT: Take a look at the images above this post

[Ahatmose]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

  We like milk. Not meat.

[stereologist]

6 minutes ago, Ahatmose said:

Farmland and The Pyramids ... no connection ? Are you sure ?

And the old explanation is that they used knotted ropes to measure. I am asking from where were they measuring and toward what were they measuring ? HINT: Take a look at the images above this post

I've been there. Have you. I can see mountains 30 miles from my house. They have nothing to do with my house. If you think there is a connection then demonstrate it exists other than showing that people cculd see the pyramids.

[Ahatmose]

Well do you think  that maybe this is what this thread is about ?

[stereologist]

So here is the goofy part of your photos. The Nile has moved since the time of the AE and today.

So let me help out here. The photos show a scene that did not exit at the time of the AE. You also need to understand that some of the photos you used may reflect modern irrigation systems that did not exist at the time of the AE.

[Ahatmose]

 

1 minute ago, stereologist said:

So here is the goofy part of your photos. The Nile has moved since the time of the AE and today.

So let me help out here. The photos show a scene that did not exit at the time of the AE. You also need to understand that some of the photos you used may reflect modern irrigation systems that did not exist at the time of the AE.

LOL ... You are determined to ruin this thread aren't you. The Nile was actually closer to the pyramids than it is now so thank you for making my point for me. The fact is that there were fields around the pyramids and I am still waiting for you to answer what they were measuring from and toward..

[Ahatmose]

Click for larger image.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Ahatmose

[stereologist]

6 minutes ago, Ahatmose said:

 

LOL ... You are determined to ruin this thread aren't you. The Nile was actually closer to the pyramids than it is now so thank you for making my point for me. The fact is that there were fields around the pyramids and I am still waiting for you to answer what they were measuring from and toward..

Why are you stalling posting your work or is it already apparent that you did not know what the issue is?

Please tell us the answer to these questions. I am sure that those knowledgeable about the AE will inform you of your gaffes.

PS. The Nile below the pyramid was closer. I knew that. I also know that you showed photos of modern irrigated areas and not historic farmlands.

[Ahatmose]

LOL ... well I had trouble locating images from 4500 years ago. do you have any I can borrow ? And no I will not continue until YOU tell us where they were measuring from and toward,

Edited June 24, 2018 by Ahatmose

[stereologist]

16 minutes ago, Ahatmose said:

LOL ... well I had trouble locating images from 4500 years ago. do you have any I can borrow ? And no I will not continue until YOU tell us where they were measuring from and toward,

I won't tell you. So please get along with your topic.

[Ahatmose]

2 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I won't tell you. So please get along with your topic.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Why can’t we use angles?

yuo can literally form a 90 degree angle with your arms and a series of instructions - place both arms bubyuor sides flat to your body. Raise your right arm in the direction you are face but not sideways until it reaches shoulder height. Rotate your left arm outward but not forwards again until it reaches your shoulder height.

congratulations, you’ve just made a 90 degree angle. 

 

Add some string and you can calculate 45 degrees (that is, the distance thst is precisely half way between your left hand and your right hand while extended as so described above). Using that same method, you can calculate 33 and 66 degrees, you just need the rope to be coloured into three equal portions.

 

I contend that anything you can use your body to demonstrate, the ancients knew therefore they could create what we with our more refined concepts of mathematics call 90 degree, 45 degree, 33 degree and 66 degrees. 

Angle, after all, means “elbow” in Greek, it’s the shape your arm makes. Triangles therefore are “three elbows” and quadrangles are “four elbows”.