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Ex-NASA scientist claims that UFOs are real


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17 minutes ago, Alien Origins said:

Well theres your quandary right there. While there are those who believe they exist there are also those that believe they don't...I don't know for sure but I think those that don't have the better case right now as far as the evidence is concerned...

I don't know if you can have a better case.., due to a lack of evidence.., for something elusive.

Nor would this have any weight or advantage.., or precedence over other theories. Think about every single discovery we've made in the past. At the time.., there was no evidence. Does this mean the scoffers were correct? No. Should they have any influence? No. Otherwise scientists would be dissuaded from all discoveries. That's the dark ages mentality.

The fact that there is little evidence for ball lightning, sprites, elves, blue streaks etc.., doesn't mean scoffers are correct.
 

This doesn't give your "team" (so to speak) any extra power or authority on the subject.

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6 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

what are you waffling on about mate!!?

Alien Origins replied. He seems to get it. I am requesting that he explain it to you.., to prevent this thread from being flooded. I am also indicating elements of emotion in your responses.., and I want to defuse the situation before it escalates any further.

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3 minutes ago, Fila said:

Alien Origins replied. He seems to get it. I am requesting that he explain it to you.., to prevent this thread from being flooded.

this thread is not about: 'do aliens exist'!

Prof. Kevin Knuth is not questioning the existence of alien life! So why are you?

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12 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

now you're confusing me as well! are you talking about the existence of aliens generally or the existence of aliens in the skies/ on this planet?

No need to be confused...Aliens period. Weather they be from another planet, in the skies over Earth or just in general....I am not questioning the existence of alien life I got no proof it exist... 

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1 minute ago, Dejarma said:

this thread is not about: 'do aliens exist'!

Prof. Kevin Knuth is not questioning the existence of alien life! So why are you?

I wish you were this focused on my threads  :mellow: Perhaps you can see the problem I face when trying to have a discussion....

Its kinda ironic.., but you intentions are the same. Try and get me to stop talking when I make valid points.

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1 minute ago, Fila said:

I wish you were this focused on my threads  :mellow: Perhaps you can see the problem I face when trying to have a discussion....

Its kinda ironic.., but you intentions are the same. Try and get me to stop talking when I make valid points.

do you actually understand what this thread is about?

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14 minutes ago, Fila said:

I don't know if you can have a better case.., due to a lack of evidence.., for something elusive.

Nor would this have any weight or advantage.., or precedence over other theories. Think about every single discovery we've made in the past. At the time.., there was no evidence. Does this mean the scoffers were correct? No. Should they have any influence? No. Otherwise scientists would be dissuaded from all discoveries. That's the dark ages mentality.

The fact that there is little evidence for ball lightning, sprites, elves, blue streaks etc.., doesn't mean scoffers are correct.
 

This doesn't give your "team" (so to speak) any extra power or authority on the subject.

Quote

This doesn't give your "team" (so to speak) any extra power or authority on the subject.

I don't know what team your talking about and no one has power or authority on the subject or we would not be arguing about it on an internet forum.

Let me quote the late Carl Sagan:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." End quote....

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40 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

i believe ETs exist... the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is not in question here-- or am i wrong?

It's just Fila's standard strawman.

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29 minutes ago, Alien Origins said:

Let me quote the late Carl Sagan:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." End quote....

 

"In 1979 astronomer Carl Sagan popularized the aphorism “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” (ECREE). But Sagan never defined the term “extraordinary.” Ambiguity in what constitutes “extraordinary” has led to misuse of the aphorism. The misuse of ECREE to suppress innovation and maintain orthodoxy should be avoided as it must inevitably retard the scientific goal of establishing reliable knowledge.  

The statement is usually made without justification or explanation, as if the mere invocation were enough to stifle debate and disqualify any legitimate opposition. Yet the consideration of alternative theories is not only allowed in science, but integral to the scientific process itself. 

 It is clearly impossible to base all rational thought and scientific methodology on an aphorism whose meaning is entirely subjective.

What qualifies as extraordinary evidence? Should there be two standards of evidence in science? Is there any context in which ECREE can be invoked correctly?

 In Thomas Kuhn’s words, “discovery commences with the awareness of anomaly”. The history of astronomy offers one example. The retrograde motion of Mars and changes in its apparent diameter were, at one time, challenges to the Ptolemaic System. A consideration of these anomalies was one factor that led to the eventual adoption of the heliocentric model."

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11406-016-9779-7

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Carl Sagan is credited with popularizing the dictum “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” during an episode of his TV series Cosmos. While it is a nice dictum in principle, it does not work in practice.

The problem with the dictum is that there are no absolute criteria for what counts as “extraordinary claims.”  In particular, what counts as extraordinary depends entirely on what you know and believe.  In the extreme case, if you know nothing, then everything is an extraordinary claim. The required level of evidentiary standards cannot depend on the conclusion or the contents of the claims.

The biggest problem with the dictum “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” is that it is often used to silence and censor."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201103/do-extraordinary-claims-require-extraordinary-evidence

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26 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

It's just Fila's standard strawman.

This is a false accusation. I was replying to Alien Origins directly in context. This is just another attempt at defamation.

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4 hours ago, NicoletteS said:

I believe it. I Keep trying to tell people they are all either human operated or transition here from basically what you would all other dimensions. Worlds within worlds. Visitors are real but they are coming from a plane invisible and normally not interactive with matter, yet inhabiting our same space. You aren't going to see them entering or leaving our atmosphere from above because they don't. That isn't what the saucer design does.

What supports this though, any evaluation of evidence or is it entirely conjecture? 

I dont find the previous post you made convincing. A government cover up makes zero sense from both a competency and international viewpoint. I honestly feel your basis for this idea is wildly incorrect, so sorry but it's difficult to see that as a possibility. If there was dimensional travel on the table, I don't see other countries not knowing, or acting on it to even the odds, not to mention in this day and she a lot of countries hate America and would surely expose and advantage like this  which spy programs would have made common knowleldge by now to other world leaders. 

They are terrestrial surely, but I don't see evidence that the majority of UFOs are dimensional or piloted. Natural phenomena seems the most likely conclusion. 

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2 hours ago, Fila said:

Example. The FAA's radar will lose track of an aircraft 60 miles away. Does this prove planes can't travel overseas?

No.., it means radar is limited. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/asr-11/

Your inference is incorrect.

No it's not incorrect. Trajectories are trajectories. It really is that simple. And they don't run out of range. They dissappear mostly. That's indicative of natural phenomenon. Your arrogance is misplaced yet again, if RADAR tracks are any sort of proof of UFOs it does not provide a connection with space and UFOs at all. It says we have tracked an unidentified terrestrial object, nothing more. 

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42 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

It's just Fila's standard strawman.

Ufo's for this discussion obviously mean non earthly craft craft piloted by extraterrestrial beings. Fila seems to jump around all over the place on this.

If the subject is simply unidentified objects in the sky, there's no discussion, of course they exist. I saw on fly in front of Jupiter while gazing at it last night, and while I accept it was a satellite, I don't know that. Therefore ufo lol..

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14 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

And they don't run out of range. They dissappear mostly. That's indicative of natural phenomenon. Your arrogance is misplaced yet again, if RADAR tracks are any sort of proof of UFOs it does not provide a connection with space and UFOs at all. It says we have tracked an unidentified terrestrial object, nothing more. 

I'm being arrogant? You are being arrogant. I'm going to join in on the name calling, as its seems acceptable.

"They" don't run out of range? Strange wording..., but I think I understand.

You are saying UFOs disappear? Can you back up this "mostly" claim?

The radar would be incapable of tracking a UFO into space. You can't use this to say UFOs are not from space..., because the tools are not capable.

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25 minutes ago, Horta said:

Ufo's for this discussion obviously mean non earthly craft craft piloted by extraterrestrial beings. Fila seems to jump around all over the place on this.

If the subject is simply unidentified objects in the sky, there's no discussion, of course they exist. I saw on fly in front of Jupiter while gazing at it last night, and while I accept it was a satellite, I don't know that. Therefore ufo lol..

I'm joining in on the name calling as it seems acceptable. So you're being arrogant too. Claiming UFOs are merely satellites is offensive to the men and women serving in the military that have reported seeing UFOs. Its disgraceful the lack of empathy you display for the people who are defending your rights. Putting their lives on the line each day. That's very unpatriotic comrade. <_<

 

I don't change the term UFO. Everyone else does and I can prove it. I have referenced this thread countless times to numerous people on this forum. https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/314101-redefining-the-term-ufo/

I am discussing the ETH. When I do I state it. I am not lying or changing anything, or talking out of context.

This is just a classic strawman argument.., hoping to distract from the last page where you refuse to answer my questions about your hypothesis.

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2 hours ago, Alien Origins said:

I doubt there is...I am of the mind that if some one wants to run around chasing ET's more power to them who am I to stop them.

Maybe. Maybe not. 

Well theres your quandary right there. While there are those who believe they exist there are also those that believe they don't...I don't know for sure but I think those that don't have the better case right now as far as the evidence is concerned...I am not above changing that opinion at a later date if the evidence is there.

Not sure about that (bold).  If you're talking existence, the fact we haven't made contact doesn't shift the probabilities towards their non existence.  The fact that in a universe with billions of habitable planets we're the anomaly sounds absolutely more surreal than anything else.  If instead you're talking about contact on earth, then I agree, there is no evidence so far.

 

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I don't think I can recall ever meeting a skeptic, here or on any forum (inc. some rather crazy ones..) who thought that we were alone in the Universe.  Plenty, including me, don't think they are 'common' and also don't think they have visited earth or are responsible for any UFO sightings.

But I've met plenty of FTB's who raise that same strawman OVER and OVER.

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The ASR is used in a dense airport area - the US. An aircraft at 2500 feet has a horizon that is 61 miles away. An aircraft at 35,000 feet has a horizon 229 miles away. Radar is a line of sight device. The small range of the ASR is restricted due to the number of radar installations and air traffic control used in the US and the huge number of planes flying at any given moment.

Besides, the 60 mile range allows a radar to detect the edge of outer space which is defined as 100kms or 62 miles up.

Military radar has a much greater range. Typical radar ranges are over 200 miles and have been that far back into the 1950s.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/03/17/3964782.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART-L

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erieye

 

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Quote

If someone thinks its impossible ETs exist.., that's fine. Their opinion doesn't change the fact that we are not sure. If someone wants to believe aliens do exist.., that's cool too. But we still don't know for sure if aliens exist. Their opinion does not change the official status.

There is no official status. There is nothing official about any of this.

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The number of fairy tales appears to be increasing.

1. Suggestions that Hynek was told to say swamp gas is a joke.

2. Saying that the government investigated these objects is a fairy tale. The suggestion there was an object is the fairy tale.

3. The idea that anything is being redacted from the 1940s is a fairy tale. Showing an old redacted report of some kind form a long time ago does not apply to today.

 

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Here is a clear falsehood

Quote

The radar would be incapable of tracking a UFO into space. You can't use this to say UFOs are not from space..., because the tools are not capable.

That is simply false, false, false. The radar is capable of tracking into space which is defined as 100km up.

This is based on a single type of radar used in one country and applies to continental flights.

There are also weather radars that have ranges out to 230km. As we have recently seen they have been used to track a meteorite into the ocean.

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45 minutes ago, stereologist said:

The ASR is used in a dense airport area - the US. An aircraft at 2500 feet has a horizon that is 61 miles away. An aircraft at 35,000 feet has a horizon 229 miles away. Radar is a line of sight device. The small range of the ASR is restricted due to the number of radar installations and air traffic control used in the US and the huge number of planes flying at any given moment.

Besides, the 60 mile range allows a radar to detect the edge of outer space which is defined as 100kms or 62 miles up.

Military radar has a much greater range. Typical radar ranges are over 200 miles and have been that far back into the 1950s.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/03/17/3964782.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART-L

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erieye

 

The 60 mile range is actually 60 nautical miles.

http://investor.raytheon.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=84193&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=463605

http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/03.atc/karte008.en.html

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42 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Out again comes a single paper that has been cited once.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11406-016-9779-7

It's one person's position in a philosophy journal. The lack of citations certainly suggest this is not an important paper.

And if you read to section 6...

Quote

6 Discrediting Miracles

The origin of ECREE lies in seventeenth and eighteenth-century debates concerning the validity of miracles. ...

As empirical evidence became the accepted standard of proof, people began to question the validity of miracles. ... Spinoza attributed miracles to human ignorance. “A miracle is an event of which the causes cannot be explained by the natural reason through a reference to ascertained workings of nature” 

However, the paper is a warning against the misuse of the Sagan Standard; without any real example of it happening.

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UFOs vanishing on RADAR:

F 15 FIGHTER pilots were unable to intercept a mystery UFO which was seen on radar flying at incredible speeds before vanishing. 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.*** blocked ***/news/weird/919957/Pentagon-UFO-aliens-US-military-jets-F-15-USAF-UFO-vanished-radar/amp

Then the unknown flying object did something potentially dangerous.

It took a sudden turn into a crowded stream of commercial airliners.

There it disappeared from radar.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/ufo-evidence-recordings-reveal-air-traffic-controls-confusion-at-strange-craft-over-oregon/news-story/48b24368ad23ffd6ccbb60972ce015ed

At the last moment, the object disappeared from the radar screen and the high-speed chase was called off.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE49L53Z20081022

The U.S. fighter was seen on radar over Lake Superior, merging with the craft it was pursuing.

Then, it disappeared from radar.

Never to be seen again.

https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/is-this-the-missing-jet-from-the-1953-kinross-ufo-incident-104724

 

At one point, Andrews and National radar centers were tracking an object hovering over a radio beacon. The object vanished from all radar screens simultaneously.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ufos-over-washington-dc-july-1952-bill-nash

 

But before he could carry out this instruction the UFO suddenly darted off and disappeared from his scope in a matter of seconds.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1078970/U-S-fighter-pilot-I-ordered-24-rockets-UFO-flying-East-Anglia.html

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