Refugees on new Balkan route stuck in limbo

[Black Red Devil]

With the former "Balkan route" closed, more and more refugees are trying to make their way into the EU via Bosnia, where many end up stuck in a muddy tent city.

Right now, most refugees arriving in Bosnia and Herzegovina come from Pakistan, according to the Bosnian Security Minister Dragan Mektic. In his opinion, however, most of them have left their country for economic reasons, not so much because they are threatened.

link

[+and-then]

I wasn't aware that refugees were fleeing Pakistan.  Are they being bombed or ethnically cleansed by someone?  Surely Pakistan as a nuclear state is a functionally secure and stable country, yes?

[RoofGardener]

15 minutes ago, and then said:

I wasn't aware that refugees were fleeing Pakistan.  Are they being bombed or ethnically cleansed by someone?  Surely Pakistan as a nuclear state is a functionally secure and stable country, yes?

Indeed. Unless you are a Christian. But then, Europe isn't keen on admitting Christian refugees. 

[+and-then]

4 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Indeed. Unless you are a Christian. But then, Europe isn't keen on admitting Christian refugees. 

So, the minister who was quoted is correct, in your opinion?  Most of these newcomers are simply economic migrants looking for a better life?

[RoofGardener]

6 minutes ago, and then said:

So, the minister who was quoted is correct, in your opinion?  Most of these newcomers are simply economic migrants looking for a better life?

I seems likely. After all, throughout 2016, the majority of  migrants landing in Europe where economic migrants, and not fleeing war or persecution. 

As for "fleeing Pakistan", one has to wonder about that. ARE they from Pakistan. Look at a map: Pakistan is a LONG way away. You'd have to go through Afghanistan OR Iran to even get to the Turkish border. I'd like to see how the Minister justifies his statement ? 

[bee]

4 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

With the former "Balkan route" closed, more and more refugees are trying to make their way into the EU via Bosnia, where many end up stuck in a muddy tent city.

Right now, most refugees arriving in Bosnia and Herzegovina come from Pakistan, according to the Bosnian Security Minister Dragan Mektic. In his opinion, however, most of them have left their country for economic reasons, not so much because they are threatened.

link

 

Something that is always side stepped is that many could also be getting into Europe and becoming citizens for political reasons
... ie. the Global Islamic Jihad... and colonization...

or for combined economic AND political  reasons -  it is probably quite an adventure for fit young males to get involved in ...  

[+and-then]

I think we are facing a major humanitarian crisis in the coming few years.  There seems to be a desire for wholesale, large scale population transfers from poor and undesirable areas to more wealthy western nations.  Regardless of the political rhetoric, such transfers simply aren't sustainable.  The native population sees themselves being victimized by higher taxes, more restrictive laws and eventually, the migrants themselves when they realize that the grass really isn't greener.  It seems to me that these waves of humanity have been set in motion by some entity to accomplish something.  In the U.S. we have members of CONGRESS advocating the end of immigration cops and all controls.  They truly desire a completely open border.  The same seems to be the case in the EU.  The reality is that such chaos will lead to violence on a large scale.  Governments will fall, as well.  

[bee]

29 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I seems likely. After all, throughout 2016, the majority of  migrants landing in Europe where economic migrants, and not fleeing war or persecution. 

As for "fleeing Pakistan", one has to wonder about that. ARE they from Pakistan. Look at a map: Pakistan is a LONG way away. You'd have to go through Afghanistan OR Iran to even get to the Turkish border. I'd like to see how the Minister justifies his statement ? 

 

I see what you mean --but if they are from Pakistan they will probably have help to get to Turkey... 
There could be a whole network of support to get them there - maybe costing money and / or favours or just 'Brothers'
assisting each other and the Cause.... maybe Saudi Arabian money involved to help finance it...? 

[Black Red Devil]

3 hours ago, bee said:

 

Something that is always side stepped is that many could also be getting into Europe and becoming citizens for political reasons
... ie. the Global Islamic Jihad... and colonization...

or for combined economic AND political  reasons -  it is probably quite an adventure for fit young males to get involved in ...  

I'm not too convinced (actually not at all) about this Global Islamic Jihad thingy to tell you the truth.  I agree that if they're from Pakistan or Iran they're not refugees but I also doubt they're here to "breed the white man or Christian out of Europe".  That's the typical argument the far right media has been peddling, brainwashing the public and with success may I add.  Terrorist attacks and lack of integration in large parts of Europe have done the rest. 

No doubt a non quantified number of terrorists have filtered through but I just think the majority of these individuals, together with the ones crossing the Mediterranean on those inflatable sinking boats, are opportunists looking for a better life, especially the ones bringing their families along.  The young single males are mostly adventurers IMO who know they'll get some benefits from some of the more generous societies in Northern Europe and hope to pick up some "easy" white woman along their trek.  

Left/Centre Left politics are to blame I have to admit, although the initial culprits are those responsible for the invasion of Iraq and murder of Ghaddafi. It doesn't take a genius to work out that you're only asking for trouble by letting millions of individuals in, allowing them to roam around unvetted, without an integration plan and as a consequence it will eventually blow up in your face.  In fact, I predicted this from the start, Europe will turn to Nationalism as is happening now in Hungary, Poland, Italy, Austria and others will follow.   When enough have turned to the Right it will get ugly and further terrorist attacks will accelerate the transition.

 

[Black Red Devil]

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Indeed. Unless you are a Christian. But then, Europe isn't keen on admitting Christian refugees. 

I don't think there's a specific selection criteria or preference.  Most refugees/migrants are coming from the ME and North Africa which are almost totally Islamic. 

[bee]

5 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I'm not too convinced (actually not at all) about this Global Islamic Jihad thingy to tell you the truth.  I agree that if they're from Pakistan or Iran they're not refugees but I also doubt they're here to "breed the white man or Christian out of Europe".  That's the typical argument the far right media has been peddling, brainwashing the public and with success may I add.  Terrorist attacks and lack of integration in large parts of Europe have done the rest. 

 

I don't think it's got anything to do with '''far right media'''' peddling and brainwashing - the numbers speak for themselves as do the
growing number of mosques... I do think there is a '''Long Game'''' Islamic Jihad slowly building up it's influence and power in Western
Nations.. and that this is a quietly understood situation and colonization that's going on.... 

Erdogan spelt it out when he openly encouraged Turkish muslims to have lots of children in Europe...

link

Speaking in the central city of Eskişehir, Turkey’s president urged “his brothers and sisters in Europe” to begin a baby boom in their new countries. “Have not just three but five children,” he told his flag-waving audience. 

“The place in which you are living and working is now your homeland and new motherland. Stake a claim to it.

 

5 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

No doubt a non quantified number of terrorists have filtered through but I just think the majority of these individuals, together with the ones crossing the Mediterranean on those inflatable sinking boats, are opportunists looking for a better life, especially the ones bringing their families along.  The young single males are mostly adventurers IMO who know they'll get some benefits from some of the more generous societies in Northern Europe and hope to pick up some "easy" white woman along their trek.  

Left/Centre Left politics are to blame I have to admit, although the initial culprits are those responsible for the invasion of Iraq and murder of Ghaddafi. It doesn't take a genius to work out that you're only asking for trouble by letting millions of individuals in, allowing them to roam around unvetted, without an integration plan and as a consequence it will eventually blow up in your face.  In fact, I predicted this from the start, Europe will turn to Nationalism as is happening now in Hungary, Poland, Italy, Austria and others will follow.   When enough have turned to the Right it will get ugly and further terrorist attacks will accelerate the transition.

 

bolded.... can't argue with that....

it could get ugly but hopefully it won't - it could get ugly if the cultural take over (merging?) is allowed to fully happen as well - so we're kind of
damned if we do and damned if we don't --- 

 

[Black Red Devil]

3 hours ago, bee said:

 

I don't think it's got anything to do with '''far right media'''' peddling and brainwashing - the numbers speak for themselves as do the
growing number of mosques... I do think there is a '''Long Game'''' Islamic Jihad slowly building up it's influence and power in Western
Nations.. and that this is a quietly understood situation and colonization that's going on.... 

Erdogan spelt it out when he openly encouraged Turkish muslims to have lots of children in Europe...

link

Speaking in the central city of Eskişehir, Turkey’s president urged “his brothers and sisters in Europe” to begin a baby boom in their new countries. “Have not just three but five children,” he told his flag-waving audience. 

“The place in which you are living and working is now your homeland and new motherland. Stake a claim to it.

 

I don't think the number of growing mosques are specific or an indication of Jihadist "colonisation".  The number of Muslims in Europe are growing and so the requirement for more Mosques.  It's how Western civilisation has prospered, allowing open freedom to practice your beliefs as long as they don't breach our Laws.  Unfortunately a large number of Islamic hate preachers were allowed to brake these Laws for far too long, another blame I put on the too easygoing Liberal mindset. 

Erdogan is an Islamist and you wouldn't expect anything less from someone of his ilk.  But he isn't guiding the opportunists and adventurers trying their luck in Europe.  If you look at the birth rate by country, the most "prolific" countries are from the poorest corners of the world.  When you include the appealing welfare benefits in the West, the already high birth rates of these families become even higher.  Erdogan is an enemy of Europe and western civilisation. I wouldn't be giving him 6 billion Euros to control the influx of refugees and migrants into Europe.  The EU should control their borders and give him nothing.

[Black Red Devil]

4 hours ago, bee said:

bolded.... can't argue with that....

it could get ugly but hopefully it won't - it could get ugly if the cultural take over (merging?) is allowed to fully happen as well - so we're kind of
damned if we do and damned if we don't --- 

 

Geert Wilders and Le Pen parties have gained significantly in recent years.  Belgium politics are highly influenced by France and the Netherlands.  These countries alone make up a large percentage of Muslim migrants in Europe.  If they come to power in coming elections they may follow Italy's current Right Wing populist parties in power in promising to expel over half a million migrant refugees (mostly Muslim).  Not sure how they are going to expel half a million people (over 4 years I think) but lets see how that pans out. 

I don't believe Germany will go to Nationalism (again) but they may be put under pressure by what's occurring around them, considering their significance in Europe.  Greece and Croatia have also strong Nationalist feelings, so....

 

[The Caspian Hare]

On 7/4/2018 at 7:22 PM, Black Red Devil said:

I don't think the number of growing mosques are specific or an indication of Jihadist "colonisation".  The number of Muslims in Europe are growing and so the requirement for more Mosques.  It's how Western civilisation has prospered, allowing open freedom to practice your beliefs as long as they don't breach our Laws.  Unfortunately a large number of Islamic hate preachers were allowed to brake these Laws for far too long, another blame I put on the too easygoing Liberal mindset. 

Erdogan is an Islamist and you wouldn't expect anything less from someone of his ilk.  But he isn't guiding the opportunists and adventurers trying their luck in Europe.  If you look at the birth rate by country, the most "prolific" countries are from the poorest corners of the world.  When you include the appealing welfare benefits in the West, the already high birth rates of these families become even higher.  Erdogan is an enemy of Europe and western civilisation. I wouldn't be giving him 6 billion Euros to control the influx of refugees and migrants into Europe.  The EU should control their borders and give him nothing.

It's a specific example of a leader telling his ethnic group to have more kids and by doing so to demographically displace and dominate their host populations. I have heard Ghaddaffi and Arafat say similar things in the past. I bet we could pull up more examples too.

Happens throughout history. Upsetting an ethnic balance leads to tension and sometimes to violence.

[Helen of Annoy]

Not to spoil the self-pity panic party, but according to UN migration experts, 

 

Quote

 

The European Union is not in the throes of a migration crisis, despite a “toxic narrative” and political spin,

...

“We are concerned that the toxic narrative against migrants, to put it bluntly, be diminished, and people see migration for what it is. It’s a necessary part of the modern world, provided it’s managed. The issue is that people’s perception is that it’s out of control,” he said.

The numbers of people risking the journey across the sea peaked in 2015, but have fallen sharply in each subsequent year. In the first half of 2018, 46,449 migrants and refugees entered Europe by sea, according to the IOM.

 

source: Reuters

 

 

 

[The Caspian Hare]

Quote

. It’s a necessary part of the modern world, provided it’s managed.

Except it hasn't been managed. You're basically saying "Don't worry, it's all in your head, nothing to worry about here, go back to your daily lives..." It doesn't take much to upset a society. Mass migration and demographic upset  have always been disruptive and sometimes fatal to the societies that they affect. Just ask the Palestinians.

[Black Red Devil]

12 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Not to spoil the self-pity panic party, but according to UN migration experts, 

 

source: Reuters

 

 

 

I agree and I disagree.  There IS a growing toxic narrative but the flood of refugees/migrants is not managed properly.  Now Erdogan has built a wall between Syria and Turkey but there are currently 2.5 million "Syrian" refugees in Turkey.  How many of those are ex ISIS fighters?  Does Croatia vet those crossing from Bosnia and if they do can they be certain that they are from where they proclaim to be considering the fact I doubt there are diplomatic ways in finding out from their records in Syria?

Edited July 8, 2018 by Black Red Devil

[Helen of Annoy]

6 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I agree and I disagree.  There IS a growing toxic narrative but the flood of refugees/migrants is not managed properly.  Now Erdogan has built a wall between Syria and Turkey but there are currently 2.5 million "Syrian" refugees in Turkey.  How many of those are ex ISIS fighters?  Does Croatia vet those crossing from Bosnia and if they do can they be certain that they are from where they proclaim to be considering the fact I doubt there are diplomatic ways in finding out from their records in Syria?

 

9 hours ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Except it hasn't been managed. You're basically saying "Don't worry, it's all in your head, nothing to worry about here, go back to your daily lives..." It doesn't take much to upset a society. Mass migration and demographic upset  have always been disruptive and sometimes fatal to the societies that they affect. Just ask the Palestinians.

 

You both do have a point, only an idiot would take this issue lightly. 

It was not my intention to imply there's no issue - there certainly is. In my opinion, absolute majority of people who are migrating today do that for a number of horrible reasons (wars, hunger, oppression, economic hopelessness), the few that could be terrorists can as well arrive in the first class, with valid visas. You probably noticed news about former ISIS members being arrested upon arrival in EU countries, from which they went to ME to live their perverted fantasies out. They're not refugees or migrants, they are EU citizens. Just like the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of actual terrorist attacks were citizens. 

Personally, I wouldn't hold any Muslim guilty of something someone completely else did, while being Muslim too. I do not accept the concept of collective guilt.    

In a perfect world, the greatest effort would be done to heal the cause of migrations. In our world, it won't happen, so at least some humanity in the way migrants are treated is needed, because they are, simply, people. 

The EU is 500+ million people. Even if every last Syrian refugee is used in the weaponized refugees project and pushed towards EU, it's not their goal to start bulldozing around, they're looking for a refuge. Those who went through Croatia caused no incidents and - contrary to extreme propaganda - were families with children and a lot of wounded and disabled people. 

The Africans, Iraqis and Afghans were coming for years, in similar numbers, but no one cared until the 'populism' started advertising them as some kind of genetic and religious arch-enemy of Europeans. I'm rather troglodyte myself, but I just don't see any willingness or ability to destroy my culture, in these people.      

Currently, there's unknown number of migrants accumulated in Bosnia&Herzegovina, that is true. That number varies between 300 and 600. I kid you not. A group of 100-200 people tried crossing to Croatia recently and was forced back, relatively gently but it was still very traumatic for everyone involved. 

So, no, it's not a invasion. But it's very depressing, because I don't have to like someone's customs or appearance in order to recognize they feel the same fear and pain I would feel in their place.

 

Thank you both for making a conversation in friendly and reasonable tone. 

[Black Red Devil]

5 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 

 

You both do have a point, only an idiot would take this issue lightly. 

It was not my intention to imply there's no issue - there certainly is. In my opinion, absolute majority of people who are migrating today do that for a number of horrible reasons (wars, hunger, oppression, economic hopelessness), the few that could be terrorists can as well arrive in the first class, with valid visas. You probably noticed news about former ISIS members being arrested upon arrival in EU countries, from which they went to ME to live their perverted fantasies out. They're not refugees or migrants, they are EU citizens. Just like the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of actual terrorist attacks were citizens. 

Personally, I wouldn't hold any Muslim guilty of something someone completely else did, while being Muslim too. I do not accept the concept of collective guilt.    

In a perfect world, the greatest effort would be done to heal the cause of migrations. In our world, it won't happen, so at least some humanity in the way migrants are treated is needed, because they are, simply, people. 

The EU is 500+ million people. Even if every last Syrian refugee is used in the weaponized refugees project and pushed towards EU, it's not their goal to start bulldozing around, they're looking for a refuge. Those who went through Croatia caused no incidents and - contrary to extreme propaganda - were families with children and a lot of wounded and disabled people. 

The Africans, Iraqis and Afghans were coming for years, in similar numbers, but no one cared until the 'populism' started advertising them as some kind of genetic and religious arch-enemy of Europeans. I'm rather troglodyte myself, but I just don't see any willingness or ability to destroy my culture, in these people.      

Currently, there's unknown number of migrants accumulated in Bosnia&Herzegovina, that is true. That number varies between 300 and 600. I kid you not. A group of 100-200 people tried crossing to Croatia recently and was forced back, relatively gently but it was still very traumatic for everyone involved. 

So, no, it's not a invasion. But it's very depressing, because I don't have to like someone's customs or appearance in order to recognize they feel the same fear and pain I would feel in their place.

 

Thank you both for making a conversation in friendly and reasonable tone. 

Yeah well, as I hinted to previously, Right wing media has done a great job in promoting xenophobic and nationalistic feelings and the results can be seen in recent elections.  The challenge for Europe is to close the floodgates before it's too late.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

Yeah well, as I hinted to previously, Right wing media has done a great job in promoting xenophobic and nationalistic feelings and the results can be seen in recent elections.  The challenge for Europe is to close the floodgates before it's too late.

Fortunately, the rumor works better than official efforts: migrants do contact home.

It's why the numbers are falling.

[RoofGardener]

On 07/07/2018 at 12:35 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

Not to spoil the self-pity panic party, but according to UN migration experts, 

Quote

The European Union is not in the throes of a migration crisis, despite a “toxic narrative” and political spin,

...

“We are concerned that the toxic narrative against migrants, to put it bluntly, be diminished, and people see migration for what it is. It’s a necessary part of the modern world, provided it’s managed. The issue is that people’s perception is that it’s out of control,” he said.

The numbers of people risking the journey across the sea peaked in 2015, but have fallen sharply in each subsequent year. In the first half of 2018, 46,449 migrants and refugees entered Europe by sea, according to the IOM.

 

source: Reuters

And there we have the problem in a nutshell. This is the dangerous mind-set. On what basis does the author of the above comment state that immigration is a "necessary part of the modern world" ? 

Necessary for whom ? What facts back this up ? What assumptions ? 

Edited July 11, 2018 by RoofGardener

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

And there we have the problem in a nutshell. This is the dangerous mind-set. On what basis does the author of the above comment state that immigration is a "necessary part of the modern world" ? 

Necessary for whom ? What facts back this up ? What assumptions ? 

For my nation, among many others. I based that on the fact that our economy is crap so we have to work abroad. No assumptions, it is the naked truth. 

So, you've got a problem with that? Why? Which personal trait of mine scares you the most?  

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Necessary for whom ?

Necessary for those that want to see the nullification of all borders and for those too greedy and self-absorbed to care.  Take away any mindset of independence and run roughshod over liberty by literally inundating the population with millions who don't speak the same language and who need to be given EVERYTHING just to survive, then tell the natives they are racist xenophobes if they get upset.  

[RoofGardener]

4 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

For my nation, among many others. I based that on the fact that our economy is crap so we have to work abroad. No assumptions, it is the naked truth. 

So, you've got a problem with that? Why? Which personal trait of mine scares you the most?  

What scares me the most ? 

Well... at the time of writing... the Croation football team are about to send England home

How many players in the Croation national team are immigrants ? 

[Helen of Annoy]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

What scares me the most ? 

Well... at the time of writing... the Croation football team are about to send England home

How many players in the Croation national team are immigrants ? 

Most of them, probably. We'd need to genetically screen them all and see if there's more Illyrian or Slavic DNA in them to say for sure. 

We'd also have to determine where from Slavs came before they returned to this part of Europe in approximately 6th century and how much non-European genome they've picked up on their way. 

 

This recent football situation is just another example how devastating it is to take the myth more seriously than the obvious facts.

It's about time you stop embarrassing yourself with public proclamations that you still believe in the myth of WASP supremacy. Or carry on, some morbid humour is always welcome.